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Need help brainstorming
 Moderated by: DrDeb Topic closed
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Joined: Mon Aug 4th, 2008
Location: Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 145
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 Posted: Mon Jun 7th, 2010 02:22 pm
Dr. Deb,
I apologize for responding.  I am simply shocked.

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Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
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 Posted: Mon Jun 7th, 2010 04:40 pm
Now you've achieved Step One, Leah, in that you are stating that you need to see research on fescue toxicity. This is not entirely where I want you to be as to a response, but it's a good enough start that I am willing to take the time to respond to it.

As I mentioned initially -- fescue toxicosis is the no. 1 worldwide leading cause of stock loss in the cattle industry. One of the things I expect from students is that when I tell them things, they would believe me. And, if you had done another thing I told you to do, vis., obtain and read my "Poison Plants" book, you would have been able to see the whole nine yards about it in there. You would also have been able to look at the bibliography in PP, which is quite extensive as it is in all my works, and see more references. Another book which I often recommend, and one with which your vet may be familiar (if he has any interest in plant toxins) is Knight and Walter's "Plant Poisonings of Animals in North America", which gives the actual biochemistry and a list of references to the actual lab science.

Allergy tests are "moderately" reliable, a point which your vet will also emphasize. Basically, I would not have spent money on them, because it is so easy, simply by removing the horse from fescue, to make all his allergic responses get so much less that they will no longer be a problem.

I understand, Leah, that you're rather proud of all you've managed to look up concerning onchocerca. However, for all that you've learned about it, you have not got the background to properly interpret it. If your horse is moon-blind, your vet will be well aware of what (if anything at this point) can be done about it, and will likely already have suggested whatever treatment he thinks is cost effective. If the horse is moon-blind (let me anticipate a question which you have not asked yet), it will make no difference at all to your being able to ride him safely *IF* your horsemanship is up to the speed I would want. Once again, you need to do what I told you to do and make immediate sincere effort to go study with one of our recommended horsemanship clinicians.

Now you've had your questions directly answered, as you asked. I agree with Indy in thinking that in actual fact, what's holding you up Leah is that little phrase: do as you have been told. Your reluctance to hear what this really means is a confusion that many "apparent" adults have over what their power of independent decision-making actually consists of. Your ability to make good decisions depends upon your knowledge of the wider reality relating to your horse and yourself. The value of your decisions is in direct relation to this. As you have only a partial grasp of those wider realities, i.e. you are not an expert horsewoman who can ride out hard bucking or prevent it from arising, and i.e. you don't understand how fescue toxicosis is driving all the other issues, then the value of your "independent decision" is not worth spittle.

This is why I told you to go read, and think about, the "This Says It All" thread -- because, Leah, you ARE that defiant little girl, and you are ALSO the muddled parents who go looking for syndromes and five-syllable diagnoses (a sly way of blaming the problem on the child) instead of looking deeply into themselves. 

As Indy says -- just like with the little girl in the report -- this is a no-brainer. When you get your head put on straight, however, you'll submit, and in that submission you will find freedom. -- Dr. Deb


Last edited on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 04:53 pm by DrDeb


Joined: Sat Sep 22nd, 2007
Posts: 256
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 Posted: Mon Jun 7th, 2010 05:26 pm
Dr Deb, as I mentioned I am familiar with Fescue Toxicty regarding broodmares-I have also heard of it regarding cows. What I have not read about is FT regarding non breeding horses.

All I am asking for is references. I know you like your students to do as they are told, but I am not your child. I am an adult. I am an attorney by education-this means I am trained in researching topics, being able to refer to articles, studies, etc. I prefer to understand things not just do as I am told. I am not a puppet but sometime that wants to understand things so I can make educated decisions.

Over the years I have had many people tell me to do something. I have done so without knowing why and created harm. I won't do that anymore. My horses are my responsibility so before I feed something, remove something, add something, use equipment, whatever I need to know why.

I no longer do as I am told without understanding WHY. For me, this is the characteristic of a good horse owner, parent, steward of animals, etc.

While you consider me a waste of a teacher's time, the educators that I knew when in law school encouraged and demanded that we knew WHY we did something when we did it.

I am this way in all areas-if I make an investment decision I want to know the product not just plunk my money in because a professional told me to do so. I could go on and on with other examples but you can see my point.

I am curious why you are most concerned with the fescue (from an allergy standpoint not from the endophyte standpoint) when he responded borderline on this and much higher on other items.

Is this because the FT triggers ALL the other responses? Is this where you are going?

I understand completely that 'horsemanship trumps blindess'-that makes perfect sense.

With respect to your conclusion, I will again disagree. I have admitted from my first post that my horsemanship was not where it should have been years ago-it is still is not but it has improved. It is a learning process and we keep pecking away at it. I do that daily.

I also am not going to debate my ability to understand and interpret what I have learned about neckthread worms. I am capable of understanding many things-and when I do not, I contact those that are able to assist me.

If you are uncomfortable having a student that seeks to understand why, then I understand if I am not welcome on your forum. I would appreciate it if you would leave the demeaning comments about me as a perons out of the discussion. I am not calling you names and accusing you of lack of integrity, lack of insincerity, basic ignorance or inability to comprehend what you read. Actually I have never had a teacher behave in that fashion.

Of course that choice is yours as it is your forum. As a teacher myself I do find the lesson is better learned without criticizing the student.

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Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
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 Posted: Mon Jun 7th, 2010 10:00 pm
OK, Leah -- now I understand a whole lot better. The problem is not only one with juvenility; it's that your lack of maturity has been compounded by years of training and practice. In other words -- you're a fucking lawyer!

Now, as you probably know there are a million jokes about fucking lawyers. And they stem from what fucking lawyers always do, and what they are trained to do: they argue with the objective of WINNING the argument.

They do not ASK; they prepare a position ahead of time, and then they APPEAR to ask; and then they argue with no matter what response they may receive.

And fucking lawyers do not even argue with the purpose of ascertaining what is true or righteous; they argue in order to WIN.

This is what makes lawyers almost impossible to teach -- because the lawyer is not at all really interested in learning anything, but instead is interested in picking flaws with the other person's statements, looking for inconsistencies, attacking or questioning the other person's credentials, and (if they are very skillful), pulling whatever theatrics they think may be needed in order to engender the sympathy of the gallery or jury.

Of course, anyone who has done a little reading in theology, philosophy, or psychology will recognize all of these characteristics as manifestations of ego -- the bratty little child within who has to have her own way, and the dark thing within the "adult" person that believes in its own independent, separate identity, and which is willing to do or say literally anything in order to maintain its illusion of independence and control. The ego is a queen who must reign lest she die. In order to reign, she must win every time. And in order to reign, she must have a kingdom. We will have more to say about that at the end of this transmission.

I am writing this post primarily not for you, Leah, because I think that at least for the next several years, you will be beyond any help I can give. Rather I am holding your attitude up as an unattractive example for the many other people who will be reading this thread. Those of you who are subscribers to "The Eclectic Horseman" magazine will remember a recent article in there by Wendy Murdoch in which she talks about students who are difficult to teach. As it happens there is a back-story on that article which I think will be helpful here.

I am aware of exactly why Wendy came to write what she did -- because of an old friend of mine who is a lawyer. I gave up years ago on trying to teach this man anything whatsoever, because during lessons he would not at any time do simply as he was told. Instead, every single time it was "why do I have to do this?" or "what is this for?" or "well the clinician I saw last week didn't tell me to do it that way". What is the instructor supposed to do for a person like this? I never could decide if all his questions were really more about the fact that he did not actually want to ride his horse, or did not want to learn anything, or was so obsessively busy in his mind that he literally could not let the questions go until after the lesson (something I repeatedly requested that he do, with no success). I have known this man since 1988 and in all that time, he has made very little progress as a rider -- why would anyone be surprised at this? -- because he will not do as he is told.

To do as you are told is only possible, of course, when you have the GRACE to submit to what the teacher says. To obey is not only "gracious" in the southern-belle sense of the term, but is directly empowered by the voice of the Holy Spirit within the person that says -- "go on and risk it. Actually give what she is telling you to do a TRY." My friend, although he is a most gracious person, unfortunately does not possess the necessary GRACE. So, for the sake of preserving our friendship, I have for the last fifteen years, whenever he has asked me, tactfully suggested that he might get more benefit from riding with someone else. Nonetheless, to this day, every time I go over to his house for dinner, I anticipate getting at least one hour of "grilling" -- multiple questions from him which he would have had the answers to fifteen years ago if he had only done what I told him to at the time.

Now as it happens, Wendy Murdoch is one of the people to whom this man has gone for lessons. And I see that our mutual friend the lawyer has been the motivation for Wendy's article. He has inspired her to propose what I consider to be a most useful distinction and way of thinking, something that definitely has improved my own teaching. What Wendy points out is that you have two kinds of people in lessons: those that "feel-do" and those that "feel-think".

The student who will make progress is a "feel-do" student. This student feels the horse move a foot, or turn its head, or brace its neck, or shift its weight. And when this feel comes up to them, they then DO SOMETHING in response. They actually take action! And they "do the particular something" in response to the horse that the teacher has just instructed them to do.

The student who, like our mutual friend the lawyer, will never succeed is the "feel-think" person. This student feels the horse and then, instead of taking the only opportunity (the "now") which will ever present itself to respond to the horse's action, instead wants to QUESTION, CHATTER, OR ARGUE. Needless to say, this messes up the person's timing and, at a deeper level, causes them to never be certain -- of anything.

So, Leah, what we need from you at this time is two things: silence, and obedience. As I previously said -- you never really did want to "brainstorm", because you had already decided before ever coming here what you were going to do with your horse. I have gone to extra time and effort to read your posts and to respond to them (more and more pointedly), highlighting for you where the path lies to success and the cessation of your problems.

Previously, I indicated that this thread must come to an end, and this is that end. The kingdom of your ego is at an end, Leah -- at least here. You are still not banned; however, every future post from you that fails to convey that you have decided to implement the suggested changes, and in which you apologize to me for arguing, will be deleted as a sheer waste of my time, and as being fundamentally disrespectful. If you can't do both of these things, then I invite you to go look for help elsewhere. I need to also note here that I have already had some qualms about telling you to go find our recommended clinicians, because I was already aware that if you showed up in your current state of dullness to yourself, that you would become a problem to the clinician -- all of those guys are friends of mine and I really would not want to do that to them. However, I knew they would forgive me too, because they are all very dedicated teachers. Understand, Leah, that for that very same reason, you won't be permitted to pull any lawyer crap with any of these fine horsemen either. Questions "for the sake of argument" are not welcomed by any clinician, nor by the other riders, who have equally paid for the teacher's time. -- Dr. Deb


Joined: Mon Apr 12th, 2010
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 Posted: Tue Jun 8th, 2010 12:14 pm

Thanks for that great reply. I have copied it and will post it on my website for all to see and on the usual horse forums.

This is some CLASSIC posting, I haven't laughed this hard in about week.

Thanks for good times, so long and thanks for the fish!


Joined: Sun Apr 1st, 2007
Posts: 127
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 Posted: Tue Jun 8th, 2010 07:37 pm
It is exciting for me to know that Leah is planning on spending time with Harry Whitney. SHe is seeing the importance of getting to the mind.  Josh opened that door for her. I am looking forward to seeing Josh's dvd's and sharing them with Harry while he is here in TN. We are ALL students of the HORSE. The best teacher there is, bar none.

Irishcas, since you now live in AZ, maybe you can get to see Harry sooner than later.  

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Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
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 Posted: Wed Jun 9th, 2010 06:29 pm
Leah, I see from your most recent post (which has been deleted) that you have been reviewing in detail all that I have told you in this thread. That's very good. And if it makes you angry -- very very VERY angry -- that is excellent. That has certainly been my intention. Because sometimes, when the student who is being an ass gets their butt kicked just hard enough, it will cause them suddenly to have to stop and laugh. And in laughing at the whole situation, and at themselves, they will come to clarity.

So to Irish Cas -- yes, indeed, this is the sort of teacher we definitely DO need in the horse world, which contains many people who are indeed little babies who insist upon having their own way -- at their expense, at the teacher's expense, at fellow students' expense, and at their horses' expense.

Now folks you have seen the inner motivation. All of you old biddies who wrote in shocked that I would use the word "fucking" have been deleted  too -- trivial traditional proscriptions of that type being of no help either. One must use the whole toolbox when it's needed, and I am committed enough to do that. If you're that uncomfortable with it, then I invite you to go hang out at Pat Boone's website.

Now folks, I left this thread unlocked for a time also so as to see who, if anyone, would get tempted to get into a debate over Dr. Deb's temperament and teaching methods. This is of utterly zero interest, of course -- the only thing that IS of interest is finding a way to break into Leah's personal armor. Longtime readers of this Forum will only smile -- we have had a number of similar situations over the years, and what has occurred 100% of the time, is that one year, two years, five years or even longer afterward, they write back and say " you remember me? I was SOOOOO angry with you five years ago when you wrote to tell me I did not know what I was doing...."

Teachers like Irish Cas may not have the experience to know this, but I not only know it from experience, I know it by referral to wiser heads than my own, vis., my own teachers in life. So hang in there, everybody, and we'll expect to hear from Leah whenever she's got past trying to win a law case against the teacher. -- Dr. Deb

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