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Choctawpony
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Posted: Sat Apr 11th, 2015 06:33 am
I just watched the video. Those saddles sure look comfortable!
David Genadek
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Posted: Sat Apr 11th, 2015 10:45 pm
Lets talk a bit about the elephant in the room. I have taken an old skeleton diagram from an out of print text book and put your horses measurements on it, along with marking T13,T14 and T16.
One knowledgeable group are of the opinion that the center of the saddle should be placed at what they call the anti clinal moment or T14 which is is right after when the angle of the top line changes at T13. The same group also says that the saddle should be placed an inch or so behind the shoulder. I have done a 22" bar in light blue which not only is what the gaucho saddle measures but also what the panels of most English saddles and the bar of most western saddles measures. So this is the basic stand of the English saddle fitting community. You can clearly see the math simple does not add up. You can not have the saddle behind the shoulder and centered on T14. A group of western saddle makers has confused this concept and says that the anticlinal vertibra T16 is the lowest point of the back and the saddle should be centered there. This group does not feel that weighting the lumbar span has any negative consequences. So getting back to the project what would have to happen to the bar on the gaucho saddle to get it to stay off the both yellow zones?

David & everyone -- just a couple of comments:

(1) It is amusing that all the 'knowledgeable' people involved in this controversy do not seem to actually be knowledgeable about anatomical terminology. Neither T13, T14, nor T16 are the "anticlinal" vertebra. "Anticlinal" means "positioned at the top of the arch," in other words, it would usually indicate T17 or T18, which if the horse humps its back up to the maximum will lie at the top of the arch.

(2) The illustration you're using is not out of print, it is out of copyright -- in other words, OK to use because it is legally in the public domain. The original was an illustration in Ellenberger & Baum's 19th-century German work, "Animal Anatomy for Artists." This and many other illustrations that originally made up this work were later -- in the 1890's -- picked up by Sisson & Grossmann and used by them in their "Anatomy of the Domestic Animals." The illustrations were, in fact, simply taken; but this was in an era before modern copyright law, and was common practice at the time.

(3) Note that the horse in the illustration is "absolutely in neutral" as far as the posture of the back goes. This is determined by looking, not at the shallowly U-shaped contour formed by the tops of the dorsal processes from the peak of the withers on back, bugt rather by looking at the line formed by the bodies of the vertebral centra. These are visible between the ribs in the thoracic section of the back. Note that the vertebral centra line up straight -- taking neither a dipped path nor an arched one. This is quite realistic so far as fitting the "common" horse's back, since most riders either don't know how to teach their horse an improved (more upwardly arched) posture, which after having been taught will affect the alignment of the vertebral centra even at rest; or else they don't believe that this would be important. As the "common" horse ages, and as he is ridden for a lengthening period of years without being asked/taught to round up and carry himself properly, the alignment of the vertebral centra will begin to sag -- subtly at first, but more and more as the years go on. How much sag eventually develops will, in the absence of someone stepping in to teach the horse to carry himself properly, be strictly a function of the stoutness of the horse's bones and the toughness of the deep ligament layer that holds the vertebrae together. -- Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Attachment: skelatonmeasurements.jpg


Choctawpony
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Posted: Sat Apr 11th, 2015 11:25 pm
The bar of the saddle could be shortened to about 16 inches.
David Genadek
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Posted: Sat Apr 11th, 2015 11:41 pm
How big a seat do you need?
Choctawpony
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Posted: Sun Apr 12th, 2015 06:13 am
I have a 14 inch western saddle that is comfortable for me and I also have ridden in a 15 inch western than was fine. The dressage saddle that I was riding in was a 17 inch.
David Genadek
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Posted: Sun Apr 12th, 2015 08:20 pm
Ok so that will leave you with 1/2" in front and behind you. Think about movement and if that that would be enough? I have taken the drawing and put in your 16" bar and marked a center line on it. Do you want to sit that far back?

Attachment: skelatonmeasurements16-bar.jpg


Choctawpony
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Posted: Sun Apr 12th, 2015 10:40 pm
So the bar would need to be made longer and then come onto the front yellow zone in order to place the center of the saddle more forward. Now we are back to the elephant. Is this where the flare at the front of the saddle comes in?
David Genadek
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Posted: Sun Apr 12th, 2015 11:18 pm
Yes Yes!! This is where we begin to understand that we need to create a shape that will allow the saddle to be where we want it to be. If you look at the Guacho photos I posted you can see that we removed the end caps and cut out a bunch of reed on both ends. The reed has enough body that it could support the tube to be over the shoulder but not on the shoulder. This is why rigid trees offer an advantage over flexible trees.
Choctawpony
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Posted: Mon Apr 13th, 2015 01:29 am
So if the bars were stuffed with wool it would have to be done with some sort of method that would allow for a gradient change without shifting in order to create the flair. In a traditional gaucho saddle, since it is a flexible system, does not the flexibility reduce some of the pressure in the yellow zone even as the bars extend over it? In asking that question I realize that flexible is a relative term.
David Genadek
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Posted: Mon Apr 13th, 2015 03:30 am
Yes but it takes pressure to bend something. I am currently working on a line dressage saddles and even with the rigid tree that can establish the angle in the front there is nothing to create the back shape in the panels, which are very similar to the Gaucho saddle. I solved the problem by adding some gussets to create the shape. Same concept could be used on the gaucho design.
David Genadek
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Posted: Tue Apr 14th, 2015 01:12 am
Deb, Most of the sources I find say the anti-clinal vertabra is most often T16 You have told me in the past that it varies and you won't find it further forward than T16. Here is what it says in Sisson and Grossman. "The spinous Processes increase in length to the third and fourth and then gradually diminish to the fifteenth, beyond which they have about the same length. The caudal inclination is most pronounced in the second; the sixteenth is vertical (anticlinal vertebra); and the last two are directed a little craniad."
Here is a page from by By Klaus-Dieter Budras, W. O. Sack, Sabine Rock, Anita W√ľnsche, Ekkehard Henschelanother book that states the same. https://books.google.com/books?id=CUFN_K0AHgsC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=horse+anticlinal+vertebra&source=bl&ots=E27mr7N681&sig=C7bE27-Bg1qTdFxEZZ19V04uxAY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oSgsVYG1MIvkoASR9YGgCA&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=horse%20anticlinal%20vertebra&f=false Is this yet another example of a false hood getting repeated until we think it is reality?
Interesting that Sisson Grossman identifies the length of the spinal processes leveling off at T15 not T13. Personally I don't think that really has any bearing on saddle fit as we are not fitting the spinal processes we are just creating a tunnel for them.
Choctawpony
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Posted: Thu May 14th, 2015 06:59 am
I haven't abandoned this project. I am doing the ground work with Gilbert as my schedule allows, about three times a week. He has progressed from tripping over one ground pole to now having a springy trot over a series of four. While his belly has tighten up I haven't noticed any change in his topline yet.
Choctawpony
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Joined: Thu Oct 25th, 2012
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Posted: Thu May 14th, 2015 06:59 am
I haven't abandoned this project. I am doing the ground work with Gilbert as my schedule allows, about three times a week. He has progressed from tripping over one ground pole to now having a springy trot over a series of four. While his belly has tighten up I haven't noticed any change in his topline yet.
David Genadek
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Posted: Thu May 14th, 2015 06:09 pm
Here are some instructions on how to make a 3d diagram of your horses back. Liz calls it back mapping. If you do these on a thinner paper and do a series of them at intervals you can hold them up to each other and see the progress you are making. If you are not making fairly fast progress on this you either need some instruction on what and how you are doing things or there is some thing in the horses body that is blocking progress. From what I see around here you can get horse moving right in few minutes to several weeks. That is not finished and strong enough to hold it for long periods of time just restoring the normal spinal curves and getting the horse to understand how he is supposed to use his body when you are on his back. We had one here last summer that took six weeks but he had four bad accidents and it took a series of chiropractic adjustments in addition to the message and ground work. If a horse has any fusing of bones then you have to live with those limitations.
http://www.aboutthehorse.com/web/tracings.pdf
john sk
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Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 02:56 pm
Hello is some model for Guacho saddle production? I would also like to make for my horse. Bastos are equal to sausages? The horse is formed? Thank you for the answers.



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