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David Genadek
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Joined: Sun May 13th, 2007
Location: Spring Valley, Minnesota USA
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Posted: Sun Aug 30th, 2009 03:57 pm
Carey,
When you talk about weight-bearing muscles you need to understand that the notion is that they are carrying the weight of the horses body not your weight. The horse is just not designed to carry weight. That is why the five essentials are essential. They are what you need to govern in order to allow the passive dorsal ligaments system to support your weight.  The horse will naturally use this system to the degree it needs to in order to carry its own weight. However , our weight changes the whole equation so the horse needs to be trained and taught how to use the dorsal ligaments system with your weight on his back. Clearly, when we ride there is going to be pressure on the horses back. What we want to do as much as we can is float the saddle on the top of the horses back. This is one of the functions of the wool on a Western saddle. Of course this function can be completely negated by over tightening the cinches or an overly heavy rider, by overly heavy I am not just referring to the rider's weight but also their posture and how they are carrying themselves.
Joe, but I might not be quick to say that you were wrong about the rear of the saddle. You are leaning back trying to feel it could have caused the problem. It's interesting to me that the cavalry figured out that you only had about 18 inches a weight-bearing servicer no matter what you do. This is where the concept of the ski tip comes in. By abruptly cutting off the bar and 18 inches you create an edge that can't dig it by adding a few inches you can create that ski tip that will prevent an edge from digging in.
    The seat size and is also interesting to me. Today we talked about 15, 15 ½, or 16 inch seats. The interesting part is if we were to compare the amount of leg opening in the McClellan to that of the seats today they would end up being very similar. The big difference is that the cantles were more straight up and down on the McClellan then they are on today's cantles. This is a great example of why seat size measured in this way really has little or no meaning.
David Genadek
 

Joe
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Posted: Sun Aug 30th, 2009 05:09 pm
Agree on all counts.

Interestingly, in so called "english" saddles, seat sizes are talked about ad 17, 18 and 19 inches.  It is really all in how and what you measure.

As to your comments about "heavy," riders -- from early times, most cavalries of the world would severely discipline troopers for slumping in the saddle, even when dog tired in combat conditions.  This was NOT for the sale of military appearance.  It was because they understood the additional strain
on the horse.


J

Carey
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Location: Radersburg, Montana USA
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Posted: Sun Aug 30th, 2009 10:00 pm
One thing that I have thought about recently--mostly do to a recent gift a friend gave me-- a book on Horses in Native American Cultures-- is the treeless saddle.  I know why people are against treeless saddles-  but it does seem like some tribes made what they call pad saddles.  I find this interesting so much of the culture of our own land is just not available unless you dig it up.  Then eventually -probably from seeing the cavalry they adopted a treed saddle.   OR from watching the Spanish or booth.  And I think the Far eastern cultures also used saddles that were not treed in the western sense-- had  front and a rear stablility.  I find this interesting.  Especially when you realize how small and area really is available for weight to be distributed-- not much bigger than the average rear.  I am slightly inclinded to believe that the treed saddle lets the human be more sloppy in there riding without damaging the horse as much-- whereas a pad saddle or something would require a real athletic rider-- especially out on the hunt or in battle.    SO it is interesting. 

Attachment: ggg6704.jpg


Joe
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Posted: Sun Aug 30th, 2009 10:44 pm
That is  beautiful pad, for sure.  What a wonderful gift.

Remember that the tribes had no horses at all until the got them from various sources including the Spanish (too complicated for this thread, but the trade routes for horses ran from the south, north and east).  Some at the ends of the routes may never have seen horses under saddle, but many had been introduced to them along with saddles.  The tribes themselves tried lots of ways of riding --everything from bareback to a variety of saddles made of wood and horn.  The most likely reason for riding bareback or with pads was that it was hard to come by the materials and tools to make saddles.

In my youth I rode hundreds of hours bareback.  There is no doubt that if you want do do anything more than walk around, you have to be a pretty balanced rider. However, saddles confer benefits on horses ridden by the best of riders.

Joe

Delly
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Posted: Mon Sep 7th, 2009 11:20 am
I have recently changed from riding in an english style saddle to a western. It is a well made and well fitted saddle. (purchased David's DVD first) I would like advice as to the best type of saddle pad - in particlular the thickness as I have had several different opinions. In the natural materials I could choose between a wool lined, wool filled, with woollen material upper or a plain felt pad. I am currently using a thick navajo cotton and wool blanket doubled with a thin felt pad in between.

Many thanks.

Carey
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Posted: Mon Sep 7th, 2009 03:01 pm
I almost always use a wool felt pad and a wool woven pad-  I have a few thicknesses of felt pads, so I change depending on the horse.
Delly
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Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 10:09 am
Carey - thanks for that.
saddle-maker
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Posted: Thu Feb 11th, 2010 01:46 pm
DrDeb wrote:
You appear to realize that there are a number of different manufacturers who claim to produce a "Wade" tree. However, there is only one saddle shop in the world that actually does produce the Wade tree as designed by Mr. Wade and his friend back in the 1940's. That saddle shop is located in Sheridan, Wyoming.


 

I am not sure where you facts came from but as I understand it the wade saddle was first made in a shop in pendelton not sheridan, I have heard this first hand from a saddle maker in Idaho falls whom I used to work for, he made Ray Hunts saddles for over 30 years. Also from my understanding Buck has had his saddle made from a maker whom in now in Billings, He used to be in Sheridan when he started making saddles, he worked at a long time saddle shop in sheridan that also makes ropes. I used to work at this shop also back in the late 80's, they did not make saddles on wade trees at that time. I am not sure if this is the shop you are thinking of in Sheridan or not. I am not trying to be a troll here just stating the facts as I know them. here is a link to the true wade tree history that will not be disputed from just about all of the "" master saddle makers of today. http://www.cowboyshowcase.com/wade_saddle.htm

I will agree with you that a large number of tree or saddle makers that claim to making wade saddles are not using the true original wade pattern, but there are many top tree and saddle makers that build on the true wade pattern.

thanks much

saddle-maker
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Posted: Thu Feb 11th, 2010 02:53 pm
Adding a little to my first post, Buck in now getting some saddles made from a maker in Idaho, he rides saddles from both the maker in billings and this maker in idaho, this comes from Buck firsthand a couple months ago. The maker in idaho in now making a "buck Branaman" Saddle.

I was trained to make saddles in the shop in Sheridan, they did not and do not make Bucks saddles.

Just trying to inform you all of the true facts. 

Thanks much

Sherry kaufman
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Posted: Tue Oct 4th, 2011 02:37 am
Thank you for the information on how to find a DVD to educate me on the proper fitting of saddle .
DrDeb
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2011 05:15 am
I have no idea about the Queen, Clara, but indeed the saddle shop in Sheridan, Wyoming, is the only place in the world where the one and only, authentic "Wade" tree can be obtained. All others are just using the word, because the name was never trademarked or patented.

The real Wade tree saddle is that saddle that is ridden by Buck Brannaman, but also by Ray Hunt when he was alive. It would also be ridden by anyone else who does business with that particular saddlemaker, and no other. -- Dr. Deb

saddle-maker
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Posted: Thu Oct 6th, 2011 12:44 pm
"but indeed the saddle shop in Sheridan, Wyoming, is the only place in the world where the one and only, authentic "Wade" tree can be obtained. All others are just using the word, because the name was never trademarked or patented.

The real Wade tree saddle is that saddle that is ridden by Buck Brannaman, but also by Ray Hunt when he was alive. It would also be ridden by anyone else who does business with that particular saddlemaker, and no other. -- Dr. Deb"


DrDeb; could you please send me a privite message with the information about the shop is sheridan if you do not want to put their name out here for the public to read. it must not be the shop I worked for. I must have been misinformed with my information and the sources I received my info from.  I will give you my sources where I got my info hear.

1-the hostory on the origin of the wade tree

Clifford Wade, whose family came west on the Oregon Trail, had a saddle, made by an unknown maker, that his dad brought with him from the east. Tom Dorrance, who lived in Wallowa County, Oregon, cowboyed with Clifford and admired Clifford’s livestock handling ability and the saddle Clifford rode that he had inherited from his dad.

According to Dale Harwood, noted Idaho saddle maker, in 1939, Tom Dorrance took Clifford’s saddle to Hamley & Company Saddle Shop in Pendleton, Oregon. He had a new saddle made on a saddle tree copied from the tree in Clifford’s old saddle.

In 1940, Tom Dorrance was not satisfied with the fit of this saddle. He went back to Hamley’s and worked with Walt Youngman, head tree maker at Hamley’s, and they made some modifications in the saddle tree.  At that time, Hamley’s made both saddle trees and saddles at their shop. Dorrance continued riding this improved saddle throughout his long career as the premier horse psychologist.

Hamley’s made more of these trees that Tom Dorrance and Walt Youngman had designed. They wanted to call them Dorrance trees, but Tom wanted the tree named after Clifford Wade from whom they had copied the original. Hamley & Company made a few saddles on the Wade trees. They were mostly scattered around northern Nevada, eastern Oregon, and southern Idaho, but had limited popularity.

In 1961, Dale Harwood opened a saddle shop in southern Idaho. Harwood had buckarooed on ranches all over northern Nevada and Oregon. He started making saddles for working buckaroos.


In 1962, Ray Hunt had Dale Harwood build him a saddle on a Wade tree. Harwood credits Ray Hunt with popularizing the Wade style of saddle by riding one in the many horse clinics Hunt conducted throughout the United States, Canada, and overseas.



2-buck brannaman, I saw buck last year and looked at the saddles he had with him, one was made by chas weldon of billings montana, and the other saddle he was riding was made by kent frecker of idaho falls, idaho. neither saddle was from a shop in sheridan.

3-ray hunt, I used to work for dale harwood and I personally along with John Visser, made the "ray hunt saddles' which ray hunt himself took on the road with him and sold at his clinics, all these were made on "wade"  acording to both dale harwood and ray hunt whom I assumed were authorities on the subject. The first ray hunt clinic I rode in was in 1987, his saddle was made by dale harwood, every time I saw since then, his saddle was made by dale harwood, according to ray hunt himself, they were all made on the REAL WADE TREE. 

4-the real wade tree, I cannot speak for all the tree makers out there, but I have seen a few of the orginal wade tree patterns in my time, by orginal I mean actual patterns that came from the hamleys tree shop, which is recongnized by almost all of the saddle and tree making community as the first shop to make the wade. I have seen the orginal patterns in dale harwoods shop, and in the shop of a tree maker that I use.

  So, please Dr. Deb can you inform me of who orginally designed the wade tree? what shop in sheridan is the only shop that makes a wade? whos saddle does buck ride? whos saddle did ray ride?

As I guess I have been misinformed and lied to, and my own eyes must have deceived me for the last 23 years that I have been building saddles.

thanks very much,

Steve Mason

http://www.stevemasonsaddles.com

if you would like to call me 403-615-4616

thanks for you time, I look forward to hearing from you and getting my facts straight.

saddle-maker
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Posted: Thu Oct 6th, 2011 04:25 pm
In the 1942 Hamleys catalog they offer a wade, long before any shop that is currently in operation is sheridan was even around.
Clin Haverty
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Posted: Fri Oct 7th, 2011 03:46 am
Steve, thanks for the history lesson. You've been around the "Men" much more than dr deb, CH
DrDeb
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Posted: Fri Oct 7th, 2011 05:57 pm
Yes, guys, you're right here and I am wrong, wrong, wrong. So please accept my apologies, you and everybody else here; and accept "Saddlemaker's" history as being the true and accurate one.

The one point I do want to make though, emphatically, to everybody is this: where "Saddlemaker" says you can get a Wade tree is where you can get a saddle that has one. The problem is that, because the term was never trademarked or patented, quite a number of slimebags and wannabees are out there claiming that their saddle has a "Wade" tree. This is because people have heard about the Wade tree and the mere name then becomes a selling point.

And Clin -- I appreciate what you're trying to chime in on here, though, but I too was around Ray plenty. I saw his Dale Harwood saddles too, and I should have remembered about that. And it's Idaho not Wyoming. So I may be the absent-minded "perfesser" -- and I never have considered myself qualified to be a cowhand -- but nonetheless I think I was "around" about as much as anybody, when our teachers were alive.

Thanks to you both for the good information. -- Dr. Deb




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