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StaceyW
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Posted: Wed Mar 28th, 2007 08:46 pm |
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Hello Dr. Deb and forum members,
I have been working on the ground with my 3 y/o filly quite a bit since the weather has been warming and we can both bear to be out for hours at a time. As I don't have a horse to ride to pony her around the neighborhood I have been walking her on a lead. I have figured out 3 different routes that take us 2.5 miles round trip and I do the walks 5 days per week. We see large trucks coming from the quarry down the road loaded with rock, large trucks towing other trucks, people who like to honk horns and stop to say "hello" and all manner of animals from dairy cows to llamas. Bashirah very seldom will spook in place beside me and always goes forward for me when I tell her that "It's ok,you can do it" etc. We find long bits of plastic on the road side that I can pick up and rub her down with. I have even tied some to the top of her halter on a windy day and she thinks it's all a game and seems fine. There is a little village church across the road from my home that has a great 8" step up to the sidewalk that we use to work on "up' ,"down" & "wait".I have found 3 different types of bridge to cross, a high concrete on where she can see over the sides down to the water, & a lower wooden one that she moved right over, pausing only once to request a carrot in the middle and other covered pipe type bridges. She seems to understand that when she does something new I'll give her a treat . She is very inquisitive and nearly fearless. In fact, yesterday after carefully tasting the top of a neighbors golf cart as he waited for his children's school bus to arrive and almost drinking his soda- when it finally did arrive Bashirah walked right up to the bus and put her head inside, and reached up to sniff over the driver. She now has a fan club of school girls who ride this bus.
Since I don't have a lot of space using the roadways have really been helpful to us . I think she is doing great but this is my first time training a horse with no prior education. What else should I be doing to train her well from the ground? I want for her to be a good dependable horse with decent manners.
As of now she will walk over & under tarps, wait, come and whoa on request. She stops walking when I stop, she can almost bow by herself ( she can't seem to remember to hold that front fore up). She is improving drastically with ground tying, picks up legs when I point to them. She has learned to drop her headwhile standing or walking and remain in the position until I give the "ok". She used to be good about trailering but since Simah died she doesn't like to get on herself. that is our biggest challenge right now and we are slowly working toward her someday "self loading". She will bear tack, and seems to enjoy playing with the bit. She is very mouthy. I will be starting her in lunging this summer and we'll both be learning about side reins as well.
This is the horse that I bought as a rescue- she was 360 pounds ( or so) at 1 year of age. She was pretty sick and was parasite infested. At 3 she is about 750 & barely 14hh, not a big horse but I don't care about that, as long as she's comfortable being ridden by me. I 'm 5'7 & 140 lbs. Hope I don't smoosh her, poor girl.I won't be able to ride her until she is at least four which will be next October the 12th. What else should we be learning to do in the meantime? Thanks for your help.
Best Regards,
Stacey
Last edited on Fri Mar 30th, 2007 10:02 pm by StaceyW
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RaBo
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Posted: Wed Mar 28th, 2007 10:51 pm |
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It sounds like you are doing an excellent job with your filly! I too am working with a 3 year old. Mine is an APHA colt.
You could teach Bashira to ground drive, free school,& work with (over) caveletti. Other things to teach our young horses: stand with any foot in a bucket, to walk ahead of us or allow us to walk ahead of them when cued, and eventually to lead without a leadline & to self load-when appropriate & in safe conditions.
On the ESI webpage there is a tab headed Knowledge Base which opens to a list of articles/papers, the last one called 'The Ranger Piece' would be an excellent source for you to find more information about all the things you can & should be doing with Bashira before you start riding her. You have done most of them!
I haven't yet ponied my colt either, that's my goal this spring. I just started training him to ground tie. I'm looking into teaching him to bow, I'd never thought of teaching that until I joined this forum. Honestly, I still don't know why it's a good thing to teach, but I'm sure I'll find it on ESI or in one of the Inner Horseman volumes.
How did you teach Bashira to bow?
Last edited on Thu Mar 29th, 2007 09:16 am by RaBo
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StaceyW
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Posted: Thu Mar 29th, 2007 04:51 pm |
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Hi Rabo,
I taught Bashirah to bow in tiny increments first by teaching her to allow me to reach under to lift her right fore ( the knelling leg) and hold it while I gently turned her head & tugged the lead in small pulses. Once she was ok with that I started putting a carrot piece in the right spot to get her to turn her neck and hold for a moment.We have had to give up on the treats though. She was getting a little too lippy, looking for them when I wanted her to focus. She seems to love praise just as much. After that we put all the parts together and she learned to go down on her right knee, turning her head to the left. At first she popped right back up but we are working in staying down longer. Something she's much more willing to do while on new spring grass. She still hasn't made the connection about holding that right leg up by herself yet so if I don't hold it as she eases down it drops and she doesn't complete the bow (Any suggestions?).
I have actually had people make snide comments about my teaching my horse to do "tricks", but I think that bowing would be awfully useful for easy mounting if you happen to get injured on a ride or maybe find it hard to mount a standing horse. My filly loves to learn new things so I think the trick type moves are great. Keeps her & I busy and interacting with each other.
Is your avatar your colt? If so, he is lovely! Good luck with him and I liking your bucket training idea. That might be the next "game" Bashirah & will play... Thanks!
Take care,
Stacey
Last edited on Fri Mar 30th, 2007 10:03 pm by StaceyW
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RaBo
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Posted: Thu Mar 29th, 2007 11:51 pm |
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I think the tricks are a good thing to teach her while you are waiting for her to mature/before you start riding her. It's great for bonding & learning one another. I used to be leery of trick training because I was afraid in teaching tricks, I might be teaching bad habits. Many tricks can be useful in practical situations, like the foot in the bucket game. It will come in handy when she needs to soak her foot for an abscess, swelling, etc.
My avatar is my colt, thank you- he has blue eyes, like his mother had.
Unfortunately, I don't have any suggestions on how to keep Bashirah to hold her foot up on her own, unless you go back & break just that part of the trick down more...You'll get it.
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Scott Wehrmann
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 08:34 am |
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Hi!
It seems you two have a lot of good things going on to build on. One thing that did strike me was your frequent mention of carrot treats, that she will perform or comply knowing she'll get a treat, that she is also getting mouthy.
Just my opinion, but that may lead to problems down the road. You will find yourself in situations very soon where treats are not possible or a positive thing at all. The mouthiness will often lead to nastiness and pushiness. There are a few folks out there who are able to use grain or treats without getting into trouble eventually. But those horemen are very few and far between.
I tend to think it becomes a substitute for directing the life in the horse through feel....the life in your body and hers. That feel is being transmitted back and forth between you through a halter and lead, reins, a bit, seat and legs or just through thin air. If the horse gets to where it is obsessing about treats it can quickly escalate to blocking out any chance to getting that two-way communication going.
The best resource I have ever come across is Buck Brannaman's Groundwork book and video. You and your pony won't need a lot of room, or lots of fancy gadgets. But you can keep very busy for quite a while getting that feel established. And the beauty of it all this that it will lead directly to riding, using all the same movements and feel to set the stage for everything you ever want to do together.
Have fun!
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RaBo
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 10:12 am |
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Well put Scott, I agree that treats (especially for young horses) aren't the best reinforcement. For the same reasons I've never used treats. My colt has been curious & 'mouthy' from the beginning so I didn't need to add to his curiosity. His 'reward' is an ear rub (his favorite) which has made clipping & cleaning his ears easy to do from the beginning. Often times he finds his own 'reward' in just coming to me or being with me. He likes grooming, learning, exploring, etc. But when a 'treat' is in order, I verbally praise him & give him an ear rub- he understands & 'gets it', & it's free!
What I need to work on now is teaching Bo (my colt) more respect in not getting in everyone's space. He doesn't bite, he just wants to inspect eveyone who is standing near him, usually people who are standing right in front of him casually petting him while talking to me or someone else. Much of the time I don't correct him if the person is just standing there with their hands all over his face & petting him because I feel that if they are touching him, why can't he touch them back? I try to 'escort/lead/draw people away onto whatever they've come to see or do, but Bo is like a magnet- as are most friendly horses. None-the-less, I need to establish with him that he isn't to inspect or invade anyones space without invitation.
It's amazing how far I can go to justify undesireable behavior in my colt...I feel he is so good in so many ways, I'm willing to 'choose my battles' because I'd rather have him confident & receptive than to extinguish any curiosity. This may be good initally, but a horse needs perameters! It's about respect..."this is my bubble" kind of thing- but shouldn't people respect the horses bubble?
Last edited on Fri Mar 30th, 2007 11:44 pm by RaBo
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Scott Wehrmann
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 05:25 pm |
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Hi!
Maybe this is just a cowboy thing, but to us, it is a cardinal sin to have a horse come up and make contact.....whether with a nose or lip or especially a hind foot. BUT...is equally as offensive to walk up to another cowboy's horse and just pet him. You just don't do it. It is almost like meeting the guy's wife for the first time, and instead of taking off your hat, shaking hands, and doing this right, you just grab her wherever you want and give her a big wet kiss right on the mouth. You are in serious trouble.
It is not too much to ask for people to be polite, to show the proper respect and courtesy to a horse.....especially one we have put hours and days and weeks and months and years into bringing along.
The odd thing is, I am convinced that horses have a sense of this too. When they have invested a considerable amount of their own blood, sweat, tears, and toil, they have earned a certain stature. I know it. My horse knows it. I expect him to act like it. And I expect people to respond. If they don't know it yet, no problem. I have no problem with someone who just doesn't know any better. But from someone who should..... you are in serious trouble. Now, most guys, if someone just simply said,
"Hey, would it be alright if I petted your horse? He's Beee-yoo-tee-fullll!"
everything would be fine. And the horse seems to know this too. Sure, pet him till the hair rubs off. We both kind of like the attention.
So from the first day I work with a horse, I try to foster a feeling of dignity and quiet strength. There are invisible lines we won't cross. Once haltered, school is in. Once we're riding, we're on the job. No goddamn cow on earth is going to beat us. And we're not kidding. But we expect to be treated accordingly. We're quiet and easy going and fun to be around, can give and take with the best of them. We're the one you turn to when you need a little help. The horse understands this too.
This kind of goes to the whorl conversation. If I expect my horse to be kind of a fun plaything, a pleasant diversion when I feel like it, I guess he will be. But if I expect him to be a true partner and friend and to stick his neck out for me when I need him, well then that is a whole different story. That kind of thing is not to be taken lightly. I expect absolute trust and respect from him. He expects it from me. And we both expect from everyone we meet.
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StaceyW
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 08:27 pm |
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Interesting ideas. I agree that carrot training set Bashirah & I up for issues such as being lippy with me and with others. I laid off the carrots last weekend for exactly this reason. Although they seem to help to get her to initially understand that I wanted her to do something ( for the carrot in her mind) I felt that they were becoming a problem instead. As recommneded in the book "The Power of Positive Training" ( forget who the author is) I spent some time finding out where her physical reinforcer spots are. She seems to really enjoy being scratched on the crown of her head, anywhere on her ears, under her chest, just above the dock of her tail, the udders and the spot of all spots is located just behind her withers where the downhill slope begins. This spot causes her to stretch out and makes nose circles so it is reserved for the really good responses to my requests. And you know what? She is even better to work with without edible reinforcers. She is focusing more on me and not whats in my pockets.
My girl is overly friendly as well, a perfect example of the "in your tent Arabian". She does have some space issues and we're working hard on those. I have been using "wait" when I know that she wants to approach someone until they consent and then I allow her forward. The only problem with this is that she likes to check what's in the hands of the person she is meeting, obviously wishing for a treat. I have neighbors who give her apples, etc so I think that has something to do with it. I have put a bucket out by the gate and asked that treats be left there. I hope that works.
I do find myself redirecting Bashirah more often some days than others. Today when I was grooming her before our walk I had to remind her to "Wait" (which to me means be absolutely still, head in front of the chest, feet still- in one place). I wonder sometimes if I am being too hard on her, expecting this at her young age, but then I also feel that she is intentionally pushing to see what she can get by with. Somedays she will stand as still as a rock when asked. When she moves from the position I put her in I gently put her back in the exact same position and repeat "Wait". This usually works very well. I think she may have noticed that the grass was much greener today as spring has truly arrived in Virginia.
Bashirah was bottle fed as a baby and I have read that some horses raised this way can have trouble understanding boundaries within the horse/human relationship. Is this a true phenomenon? How do I best deal with this sort of issue?
Can I be training too much? We do our 2.5 mile walks at least 5 days per week, often 6. This usually takes anywhre from 1.5 hours to 2 hours as we stop frequently and do various things such as waiting , yielding haunches, shoulders, dropping the head, stepping up & down on stairs, backing up & down hills and inspecting potential spooky objects. I always let her see things that she requests to look at and she is a very inquisitive filly. I like the walks because neither of us get bored and I find something new to do each day even if it as simple as sloshing through mud puddles in stead of going around. I want her to be stable and trusting. I notice that if something does really concern her she will look to me and I 'll tell her "It's Ok" and she continues forward. So she must trust me.
Thanks for the input. I really do have my thinking cap on, sometimes a little crooked maybe, but I'm always willing to learn new things and I want my Bashirah to be a really wonderful, well trained & versatile horse so that if something ever happens to me she will hopefully be more likely to get a good home. Otherwise I'm keeping her until the end. She is a sweet and good hearted horse.
Regards,
Stacey
Last edited on Fri Mar 30th, 2007 10:03 pm by StaceyW
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DrDeb
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 09:02 pm |
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Dear People -- I have not been in the Forum for a few days due to software problems. This thread was posted while I could not reply. Just a few points:
1) Stacey: We have no interest in "desensitizing" here. You absolutely want to avoid "desensitizing" your horse. Please go get a dictionary and look up what the word means: to "desensitize" is to benumb. Think about this: if there are any problems around what you are doing with your animals, this will be the leading problem. You are not trying to "desensitize"; you are trying to educate. There is an enormous difference.
2) There is no difference between using, or not using, food treats -- so long as the person doing the training uses them correctly. To use food treats correctly is exactly the same as to use pressure and release correctly. The food treat is simply part of a spectrum of pressures and releases -- toward the higher end of release, you might say. On this spectrum also lie getting off or dismounting when the horse has done something well and willingly, turning the horse loose in an enclosed space and/or removing the saddle for the same reasons, or simply walking away from the horse and ceasing to demand anything.
When we say "pressure and release", most people do not think of bribery. It's hard to consider "release" as bribery, but indeed to a concentration camp victim, the offer (however false) of freedom or imagined freedom could be used to get the prisoner to do almost anything his captors want. So even 'release' can be used as a bribe. The whole situation would be wrong and rotten to the core -- this is my point.
On the opposite hand, many people DO think of "bribery" when they use food treats. Why can they not think simply of release instead, that is, release in its good sense, as when a child who has caught a baby bird or a butterfly opens his hand and lets it go free? This is the right way to use food treats too: openhandedly. You are not kissy-kissy-pooing the horse, using food before performance or a good try, in order to beg or bribe or cajole him into doing it; instead, the food treat is his just and merited reward given promptly and openhandedly when he makes that good try.
"Openhanded" is also applicable as a word to describe the technique aspect of giving the food treat. The hand must be pushing toward the lips all the time, and once the animal has taken the treat you must keep the flat of your palm pressed against his lips for a few heartbeats before removing your hand from contact with his skin. This prevents any type of lippiness. For the rest, it is a question of whether manners have properly been taught to the horse or not -- one of the rules of mannering is that the horse shall not enter the handler's "space" until and unless invited.
And here is where Scott misunderstands something a little bit. Our elderly teacher was certainly a cowboy -- indeed, before his death he was inducted into the Cowboy Hall of Fame. And he said, "you can't pet a horse enough." And he petted other peoples' horses, and he had us pet other peoples' horses. Ray Hunt pets horses. I have witnessed both of them teaching other men -- especially white men or men who come out of the Anglo culture, which typically teaches men that they should not touch living things warmly -- how to touch horses warmly. This is what the young redheaded cowboy from Oklahoma means when, on the "Turning Loose" videotape, he says, "Ray taught me that I didn't even know how to pet a horse right."
Some horses benefit from food treats, and they need them as brain lubricant. Other horses do just as well without them. View the Circus Knie tapes and see Freddy Knie Sr. and Freddy Knie Jr., vastly experienced trainers, frequently using food treats -- and not a single animal does more in the way of 'begging' than very politely sniff and look hopeful, which is no more than to say that the animal is enjoying the training session and the company and guidance of the human. This is the key to happy times with horses for anyone, of any culture.
Best wishes -- Dr. Deb PS -- small request to everyone. I know that this new software makes it easy to post pictures. But you must remember that pictures EAT server space. So unless the photo shows something CRUCIAL that you cannot DESCRIBE IN WORDS -- please don't post them. This is not the forum where we just chitchat, and it is not a place to post your favorite cutesie-pie photos. Photos are welcome if they are germaine to the discussion; otherwise, I will be pulling them. Thanks for the courtesy. -- Dr. Deb
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Scott Wehrmann
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 08:05 am |
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Hi Dr. Deb, it is good to see your notes.
They brought a couple of thoughts to mind.
As far as touching and petting......I absolutely want to be in physical contact with the horse in a kind, gentle, soothing, affectionate way. Whether it is called petting or patting or stroking or rubbing or scratching or whatever, the horse sure knows how and what we're trying to express....and why. It turns out the horse will forgive just about any mistake I can come up with....now there's a long list....if I just ask.
Quite a few years ago I got to be part of a group in one of Buck's clinics and one of the riders was constantly smacking her horse. Buck would say "Good, now pet your horse" and she'd just whack him on the rump. This went on for a day or two. Next thing you know we're all on the ground learning how to touch a horse....it took up a good share of a morning. It was one of the more important things I've ever learned.
The "cowboy" thing is more along the lines of touching someone else's horse without permisssion. If someone asks, great. But ask. We do both like the attention. It's right up there with riding in front of the man next to you while working cattle. Or thinking you might just ride his horse. Those cowboys we both admire and emulate and try to learn from would certainly not ever just walk up and mess with another person's horse or gear without permission.
I would like to hear more of your views on desensitizing ....especially as it relates to foals. A while back I thought it would be interesting to explore this whole "imprinting" business. I was not real happy with the end results. No question it was a little easier to do some things with those colts later on. But I also felt like they didn't become quite the horse they could have been. It seems the lines were just too fine for me to recognize. I did wind up numbing the colts. Perhaps I don't have the feel for it that some do. Or maybe my heart really wasn't in it.
So while I still do want to prepare them for things like strangles vaccine in the nostrils and all the other things they need to know for life, I need to get better at recognizing those lines. Any thoughts here would be great.
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StaceyW
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 09:48 am |
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I think I should have used the term "bomb proofing" as it is closer to what I meant in my question. My goal is to create a willing, trusting horse, not a senseless zombie.
Stacey
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RaBo
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 11:17 am |
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I would like to hear more about 'imprinting' too. I've heard this word thrown around & realize there is a theory on it out there, but have no idea who may be claiming it currently or who may claim it originally. I haven't even read about it but figure when people talk about imprinting,what they are referring to is the handling a foal from birth. I do this with our foals, as they are born in foaling stalls. We tend to the mare first, find the afterbirth (sack) then, when she complies, we meet the new arrival. We give them an enema & treat their umbilical cords, take their temperature, etc. All typical foaling stuff, but we try to get the mare & foal to stay comfortable with our presence so that the babies aren't afraid & the mares aren't so protective we can't safely handle them in case of an emergency or just in general daily handling. As the foals mature we try to teach them little mile stones, so that when we wean them, they have basic training & acceptance of halters, leading (which is a whole new thing after they are weaned) but they come along nicely & easily when they are taught along the way- which brings me to that word/concept/theory of 'Imprinting'. Isn't that what imprinting is?
I've never seen or had a colt/filly become numb or less responsive or less a performer as a result of the handling- (imprinting?) we do with our horses.
I am learing much from Dr.Deb & members & like the different points of view on theories & words! Desensitizing, bombproofing, petting, etc. But in the end, we do want our horses to act like HORSES! They need to be "Handy" & deserve it!
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Callie
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 10:01 pm |
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"imprinting" has a very specific meaning these days, as put forth in a book & video (I won;t mention them here as I think that's against the rules).
I have never met an imprinted horse I liked. The term encompasses sticking your finger in all openings of the foal's body (100 times or more, each!) rubbing it with a plasic bag, clippers, etc. before it even gets up and has it's first milk.
I am not a practitioner, so if there have been refinements I am not familier with them, so I apologize. Usually what I see is the horse ends up "dead" to stimulus, or it learns to fight harder, depending on the practitioner. I would generally call this technique "flooding", and as I read research directly links foal infections to an increase in the time it takes for first nursing, I want my foal at the udder ASAP!
So thats my take on the program, FWIW.
-Callie
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Scott Wehrmann
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 10:55 pm |
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Hi,
I'm with Callie on this.
We raise quite a few babies each year. They are foaled out on pasture, so I usually don't come into contact with them until the morning after foaling.
I went out and got the book Callie is referring to. The author is a well-known equine vet out in California who published his views and promoted them.
Even when I tried awfully hard to not "numb" the foal, I am convinced that I did. A few years later when they got started for real, I could tell the difference. For two years I "imprinted" about half the babies. Same stallions, same mares, same environment, same everything. I'll never use this approach again. The imprinted colts just didn't have the same spark and life the others did.
Now, if your goal is to produce a horse that is extremely quiet and bombproof and just plain dull, I believe this whole process would have some value. There are folks in the world who, if they are going to have a horse at all, really do need one like this. I don't. If you don't have a lot of experience in working with horses and don't want to take the time to get really good with them, then a horse like this might be a good thing. Or maybe a four-wheeler would be an even better option.
Some of you may have seen horses who were roped and thrown, maybe with a running W or some such thing, then sacked out pretty hard. There is something inside them that dies, and you can never get it back. The whole process of imprinting as it was described in the book was not this tough on them but it produced a result in that general direction. It basically comes down to a human who is bigger and stronger and can use leverage on the foal forcing it do put up with a whole lot of poking and prodding and just plain giving up the struggle and submitting. I am convinced there is a light in the eye that goes dim somewhere along the way. The thing that strikes me is how many folks would be genuinely outraged and offended by treating an adult horse the same way, but think it is kind of all cute and cuddly and beneficial when we're talking about an essentially defenseless baby.
There were a few lines where I did a really poor job of trying to convey building a certain confidence or bearing or something? in a horse by the way you approach him, touch him, the way you expect him to approach people and livestock, the way you expect people to approach him. Maybe that is still possible with an imprinted horse, but I am convinced it is much more difficult.
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Linda
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Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 11:50 am |
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| My experience with imprinting has been a positive one. Foals that I have imprinted were more trusting and at ease with me and other humans as a result. This trust was encouraged and built on every day. I do not find that it dulled them in any way. My experience was quite the opposite. They are more confident, curious, outgoing, and eager to see what new strange thing we can discover. In a strange and potentially scary new situation, they look at me as if to ask,( are we safe ? ), when I say yes. They believe me. This attitude grows with them into adulthood as long as that trust is protected. They are not spooky, they are eager to learn.
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