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David Genadek
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Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 06:20 pm |
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| Well Bob Ross actually teaches some concepts that could lead to some place else so I think using him as an analogy is being kind. He does actually teach you to paint where as the clinicians don't teach you how to ride a horse. You mentioned straightening your horse and I have watched all clinician x's and I don't see them teaching that and with out that your nowhere. Well not nowhere many will teach the skills you need to be a stable boy. But even there, I'll tell you as the stable boy around here if I was caught using some of thier techniques on Liz's horses I would be fired. Last edited on Sat Oct 25th, 2008 06:22 pm by David Genadek
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kindredspirit
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Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 06:26 pm |
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Carey wrote: But the larger problem is there are very few to no good horseman around to learn from and not much information available that is actually the truth for people to find- so people latch on to the one little ray of light that they can find.
Hi Carey,
I beg to differ about there being few to no good horseman around. I would agree that there are few good ones around that market themselves!!! I know of one on the ESI Friends list who is a masterful horseman. But if you ask people about him, they are more likely to say "Harry Who?" than to know who he is!! He hasn't written a book, doesn't have a video out, doesn't have equipment to sell but he is certainly one of the best there is alive today.
It kinda makes me think of the Dog Whisperer. Like CM is the only one out there. I know trainers that would make him look like an amateur, but they are not seeking fame and fortune just going about their lives helping one dog and dog owner at a time. CM is a pet peeve of mine, I wish someone besides him would get some friggin' air time!
Respectfully,
Kathy
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Carey
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Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 08:50 pm |
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I just don't see that there is that much of a difference between the different clinicians in what they do, some people relate to certian individuals better that is all. I check out that Harry's website and it seems like he is mimicing clinician xyz -I don't know but that is what it looks like. But I would like to check out the Birdie book.
I would actually really like to know what techniques that clinician xxx uses that people are so opposed to? OR is it the whole feeling of the organization. I have to say that I was given a 7 year old Hanoverian gelding a few years agoto turn out at my house who was pretty crazy and the program that I have used has really made him a more centered horse- people used to be like "ahh why can't that horse stand still" and now they want to know "where do you get a horse like that". But I do feel there is some missing info on biomechanics which I have had to look for and I don't think you can teach horsemanship in a box. People need mentors and instruction because sometimes you have no idea what you are doing up there especially if it is an old habit.
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hurleycane
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Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 09:16 pm |
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So true about there being plenty of good horseman out there as well as a ton of happy horses who never heard of any clinician. Horses have been prized and horseman have been groomed and trained for a long long time.
Which brings to mind something else I really value about following this forum - it is the reference to the varied schools of equestrian over the ages and how they play into our current styles and keeping manners. It piqued my interest (thank you Dave Genadek) so I purchased the Dr Deb's Conquerors: The Roots of New World Horsemanship. This book is an incredible must read for anyone interested in deepening their understanding of horsemen through the ages. And it is written as only a passionate horsemen could write.
I know the posters here need no convincing of Dr Deb's worth and contributions, but it sure is nice to have the opportunity to give her thanks for what she has worked to keep alive in this forum and that incredible book. And as well many thanks to Dr Deb for the great professional horseman she brings to this forum. Which BTW is not at all a chat board, and I fear I may get my wrists slapped at any moment. But, just one more thing - Have we seen the suggested readings list Dr Deb had mentioned she would compile?? I can't wait to get that library started.
Last edited on Sat Oct 25th, 2008 09:33 pm by hurleycane
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Waldo
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Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 10:09 pm |
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Dr. Deb, once again, thanks for your reply. It was very nice of you to say that by what I wrote, you 'almost think I ride with Harry or Ray'. But I really don't. And I really promise that I am not confused about who Clinician X is. Clinician X is my mentor. I like his courses in the box, but I do have to admit that I learn a lot more by watching him and by listening to him. When I watch him, I know why he does, when he does what he does. It really, absolutely makes a lot of sense to me, and from what I found on this forum, I honestly do not find much difference between your teachings and his.
The only big difference I see is that he tries to convey his teachings to a broarder audience, so that everybody gets a chance to learn. Even willing students overseas. I am originally from Germany (that's why you might find some grammar or spelling errors in my posts), and I can tell you that people there are in desparate need of some good horsemanship. People here in the States are spoiled with good horsemen, but it can be pretty cruel world for horses over there.
Anyway, I had the heart and the desire to do things the 'right' way, way before I ever heard of xxx. He has put some puzzle pieces in place for me, and life is just grand.
As for the packaged lessons: I was not fortunate enough to have been born with horses in my backyard. The boxes have helped me a lot. It was not hard for me to understand the messages in the packages. I have never even attended any clinics, and I am still able to enjoy a beautiful and trusting partnership with my horses.
Unfortunately, not all students are the same. But the quality, the heart and the attitude of the students should not be blamed on the teacher. I bet that even a Tom or Bill Dorrance had students that 'just didn't get it'. However, I'm sure that didn't take away from their quality as horsemen. It only meant that some people just didn't get it.
With this said, I'm going to bed now. Thanks so much for all your patience, for your honesty and also for an interesting debate. I am addicted to learning, and this discussion has been a very good learning experience.
:-)))
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Joe
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Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 11:12 pm |
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Carey:
Thirty years ago ago I thought I was a pretty good horseman. I even taught some lessons back then -- but not as an occupation. I know a whole lot less now than I did then.
Joe
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Helen
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 05:24 am |
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Waldo,
I want to express my sincere thanks to you for being able to calmly converse with us and express your opinion. I'm very glad to hear that you seem to be heading in the right direction, but I do hope that at some point you realise that Clinician X is not really taking you in that direction. Looking through his website, there are countless examples of oversimplification, trying to put a horse or a problem into a 'box' so that the reader can think "Oh great, then I just have to follow these simple steps." It really doesn't seem to me that there is any emphasis on responding to or understanding the horse.
Reassuring me, though, is your obvious willingness to question and analyse what you know and what you learn. May you never lose that.
Peace,
Helen
P.S. Hat mich auch wirklich gefreut, dass die Deutsche auch aus dem Drissurkreis kommen koennen. Viel Glueck in der Zukunft :)
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Jacquie
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 06:46 am |
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I have no idea at all who the 'clinician xxxx' is (or are) who everyone here is referring to.
It is a little frustrating not to know who he, she or they are, and although I understand the laudable desire to not publicise or publicly put down any individual who is considered by this web host to be not giving good advice to horse owners, I find it a bit irritating to read a conversation about someone who everyone else seems to know, but I do not! A bit like being at primary school and not being let in on the secret by a group of girls!
Natural' is a worryingly frequent prefix used for many of the clinicians who are not always so good and these types do seem to also have their own particular set of quick fixes and specialist required equipment - all at discount prices, and these generally seem to be really good ones to avoid - or at least be suspicious of - but there must be a better way for people to judge whether you are going to be ripped off surely?
I have not used any 'clinicians' myself, natural or otherwise, but have seen a few demonstrations by various 'experts' and I have read a good few books for sure. Many seem to be catering for nervous horse handlers, or raw beginners, or both.
Like Joe in Texas I now realise how much I do not know, after living with and having the pleasure of owning horses for nearly 30 years - and like Joe having taught people to ride as well.
Well Joe, We live and we learn eh! Slowly!
I do belong to a Classical Riding Club in the UK, though it is available on-line abroad too and the club has recommended people to train with, who are from all over the world. I have taken myself and my horses for lessons in UK from people recommended by this club - all have been to good effect I think - with no special equipment sold and no 'Natural' prefixes to their style! I am off on the 29th Oct to Andalusia to train with another CRC recommended trainer for a week - how lucky I am! I absolutely cant wait to get there!
Jacquie
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Jess
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 07:45 am |
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Hello Helen
In clinician x's program, there actually is a huge emphasis on "reading the horse" and "understanding his personality" and then knowing what to do and how to respond. This a major major point in this program. They call it the 'XXXX profile'. This profile is available on their website but the educational info on this is amazingly accurate.
Jess: This is Dr. Deb. I would not follow the ideas on the website you refer to. Not only that one, but there are others like it; there is a woman clinician (referred to earlier in this thread) who has published articles and even a book on how to read a horse's personality from the bumps on its head. And there's another man who divides them up into numerous categories.
None of these systems is going to help you do anything but develop prejudices about horses. Prejudice prevents; prejudice limits; prejudice pre-categorizes -- it "knows ahead of time." It knows that this or that horse is going to be stubborn, or "resistant", or "more difficult" ahead of any actual evidence.
What you need instead is to learn how to READ a horse. Every horse. Every different horse, at every different time and situation. The Birdie Book has over 500 sequence photos, with my commentary, to help you develop this ability. Not once in the entire book do I ever relate the shape of a horse's head to its likely actions or its ability to learn. Never do I categorize them as "this type of horse" or "that type of horse". '
It's very important that beginners learn to view each horse as an absolute individual. And the reason it's important is that, unless you learn to read each horse in each moment, you're going to be caught out badly -- you will have the horse all "categorized" according to whatever silly system you have been taught, but the HORSE never heard of that system. Meanwhile, if you don't actually get kicked or run over, he'll surprise you in some other way, by not responding as you had expected.
When this happens to the gurus who lead these schools that I don't recommend, they will tell you every time that it was YOUR fault for not having learned their method well enough! But never that their method had no real meaning in the first place.
Jess, you'll notice also that all these schools offer "levels". That's another thing that horses have never heard of. There is no such thing as a "level" in reality. There is only what you can do with your horse in the here-and-now, and that will be based on how well you can read your horse in the here-and-now. To be effective with horses, you have to be able to read them well enough -- you have to be able to see the "Birdie" well enough -- to be able to catch the horse between the idea and the act. -- Dr. Deb
Last edited on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 02:37 am by DrDeb
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Blue Flame
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 07:46 am |
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Dr Deb, thank you for your most comprehensive answer regarding the HQ "escape" as an example of a harmful misunderstanding and for filling in the blanks about "filling in". I have some thoughts that I'll just lay out here as a way of checking for understanding.
I have experienced both the HQ escape problem and the solution. While that example was quite specific, it does have an extension into everything else. That extension would be the ability to differentiate between a response and a reaction, between compliance and escape/avoidance, between softness and lightness, between responsiveness and sensitivity. They are not necessarily opposites, but they are distinct from eachother. Some important aspects are the timing/manner of the release and the volume/manner of the request - which derive from understanding how the horse percieves and learns. We have found it helpful to continually ask "How little does it take?", "How can I make this clearer for the horse?" and "How will I know when to stop?".
Regarding the horse filling in, I can only refer to my own experiences as below which I have largely cut and pasted from a post in another forum . . .
The one thing that really made this (filling in) sink in for me was a short paragraph I read in an article written by a clinician whose name now escapes me. He said that your sphere of awareness needs to encompass your horse's sphere of awareness. Your horse needs to know that you percieve the things that he percieves - or else how can your horse feel safe with you if you are not noticing what he notices? How can you be a good leader if you are less aware of the environment than he is? and thus, how can he trust you to keep him safe?
Like Waldo, I do not ride presently. What I do is general care of my daughter's horse and hand walking him down public roads for feet conditioning and general wellbeing as well as some hill time from the ground for activating certain muscles. I suspect that Waldo has discovered the same benefits that I have of spending copious amounts of time on the ground.
When I walk down the road with the horse, I am not asking for much more than for him to stay with me. This frees up enough of my mental capacity to begin noticing the smallest things that he finds important - surprisingly small things that I believe so many people miss - and I make it a point to let him know that I noticed them too. These things can be as subtle as a new tire mark on the road, where distant animals have been moved from one paddock to another, if a tree has been trimmed, smells, noises, whether there is mail sticking out of a letter box, if a gate in a driveway is open or shut. I allow him to investigate the things in the environment that interest him (within reason) even if it is sniffing the same piece of poo (which may even be his own) that he has sniffed everyday for the past week. If he has a problem with something, maybe it's rubbish collection day and all the bins are out, I try to help him with that.
What I learn from all of this is what is important to this horse. It never ceases to amaze me how perceptive they are to these little things - and likewise it amazes me how much importance they place on them along with how much it means to the horse that I notice them too.
Here's a little something I have been observing lately. I noticed this after someone posted that one member of a herd had the responsibility of keeping track of things on the ground. While out in less familiar territory with my horse, I expand my field of awareness to take in the distant things and take notice of them, and see how my horse's field of perception shifts to the ground in the immediate area. Then shift my awareness to the immediate area and see how my horse's focus expands to take in the more distant things.
That's my experience of "filling in". . . . . . .
I don't view "filling in" as a necessarily bad thing - in fact, I think it is a basis upon which a partnership can be built, with shared responsibilities - but only if you understand and are conscious of what you are asking of the horse, which necessarily includes what he is apt to "fill in".
Am I on the right track or am I still missing the point?
Last edited on Sun Oct 26th, 2008 07:55 am by Blue Flame
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Waldo
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 08:06 am |
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Thanks Helen, also for your German words.
I am a rather skeptical person that is not lightly bullied into unwanted decisions or taken in by glamour, fame and prestige. I was one of those lonely kids that saw a best friend in every and any animal. I'm not lonely anymore, but animals have not lost their meaning to me. I take them the way they are, try to understand what 'makes them tick' (not just by species but also the individuals) and I try to find my place in their circles. I don't believe in changing an animal to make it fit my agenda, which is why I never went for the more 'normal' approach in animal handling.
When I learned about XXX, what I heard and what I observed fit my philosophy. All my live I was looked at as a strange and crazy woman for even considering an animals point of view. Finally, there was someone that wanted people to do exactly that. Finally, there was someone who tried to change the world. And I am building on that. I'm even building my own personality on that. I'm no longer a pathetically shy person that is afraid of standing up for herself. I am who I am. I don't have to change for my animals, I don't want my animals to change for me, and I don't want to change for other people. I learned some invaluable skills in communicating effectively without being overbearing. I had the heart for it before XXX entered my life, but finally I found my missing link.
As for the courses in the box. They are indeed worth every penny, but one cannot rely just on the material that's provided. It's not a study program like history in school, it's more like math, physics or chemistry: You read what you read, but in math, physics and chemistry, you still have to make the connections. The books can only provide so much information, the rest is up to your emotional and mental flexibility, and it is up to your ability to use some common sense.
The boxes are not history lessons, they are only one 'tool' to set you up for a long and wonderful journey, but one should never forget that the horse is still the best and most important teacher in this journey. The way I got started was this: I learned my ABCs following the first box step by step, I started the second box but never finished it. I found that I can learn more and develop my own individual horsemanship skills more by listening and observing XXX, and I only fall back on the boxes when I get stuck in the rutt. Has worked wonders for me and my horses. And a lot of bucking incidences that made my rear end connect with a very hard ground in the past now make sense. I understand what happened, and I also understand that I need to address certain problems on the ground, where it is safer for a novice rider.
Good luck to you all.
Waldo
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David Genadek
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 11:13 am |
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I agree that there are a lot of good horse men around and I also know you can’t be lazy about finding them. You see there is something that happens to people who have seen the invitation to enter the world of the horse and have walked in. Mans values suddenly become distorted and skewed to them. Getting them to leave the world of the horse can be a challenge. I believe horses share consciousness; it is a natural way for them. Real horsemen know this. They understand that you cannot make another conscious of this other than on a one to one basis. It involves helping people find the right thoughts they as an individual’s need to think to create the proper emotional state within themselves that the horse can recognize so it will open up to them. So you see horsemanship is not what you do to the horse it is what you find in yourself.
“Horsemanship is a place of being before a means of doing.” Liz Graves
The x’s teach a means of doing (most don’t even understand that) not a place of being and I think as you move forward in your quest you will learn to see the difference. You can’t learn this in a book you have to be around people that know it before you will be able to really recognize it.
Here is a poem that Deb wrote many years ago that says it well.
As we see it -
The biggest problem in the horse industry today:
We have forgotten the ghost in the machine.
Who or what is the ghost in the machine?
It's the horse itself.
No matter what our competitive demands,
The nature of the animal
has not changed
In thousands of years.
What we ask of him ...
What we do with him ...
The environment
we ask him to work in ...
The tack we put on him
... has got to be
"About The Horse"
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Carey
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 12:05 pm |
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The thing that gets me when I read the criticism with clinician X is the fact that it doesn't seem like anyone is really familiar with what they teach. They emphasis the emotional/mental/spiritual side of the horse way over the physical. The program that they teach is "Way more than Riding" in that it is a way to use horsemanship as self development so that you can become a more centered and concious individual and develop a willing partnership with a horse. Some people do not get this and get task oriented and I admit are really quite clumsy and maybe should take up bike riding instead of horsmanship- but you see that in everything.
They teach you to become part horse so that you can see the world from the horses point of view- to some of this this is innate and to others it is hard to learn- but that is the xxx program- it is not about HQ yields and bridless riding- it is about partnership unity and harmony.
And the other thing is they have created a community of like minded individuals who gather and host clinics or people like XXXX and even Dr Deb Bennet. And I find that to be really a great contribution.
All that being said- I myself have felt really confused about what clincian xxxx has created- and in some ways I do think that he has no idea what he is doing or where they are going- he used to do well sort of goofing off and now he has a whole bunch of people following him- that fact is really apparent when you go to his place- It really is the blind leading the blind- but there is some type of star quality that he and his wife have that is pretty captivating that leads me to believe that they are one to some level of truth.
So I feel really grateful to have found this Forum because I have felt for a long time like something was missing- so Perhaps eveything Deb has brought to light is true. I can't wait to dive into some of Dr Debs materials. Thanks Carey
Carey: This is Dr. Deb. You are a very sweet person, and I appreciate your attempt to be rational and fairminded. You mention that this 'greater organization' of Clinician XXX has sponsored Dr. so-and-so (whose name is, for very good reasons, forbidden here), and also myself.
Let me tell you the real situation, because you are misinformed about this. Dr. So-and-so has hovered, for many years, on the fringes of what our elderly teacher was offering. Like many mixed-up people, he lusts to get "in", to be part of the REAL "inner circle." You might be pretty young, Carey, so as not to know how common this temptation is -- and how incredibly strong it is -- the desire for POWER.
For whatever reason, Dr. So-and-so did not, or perhaps could not, bring himself to just attend or join in when our elderly teacher was publicly teaching. Perhaps he felt he deserved a special audience; it certainly looks to me like that is how this man thinks -- that there is a hierarchy, with the important people at the top, among which he numbers himself and also me.
So I had the amusing experience over one long weekend of actually being kidnapped by Dr. So-and-so: not knowing the man on sight, I accepted a ride with him to a remote ranch. My sponsor at the ranch had arranged the ride, also innocent of the greedy desires of Dr. So-and-so, who thought, I believe, that if he could only have me aside privately for the duration of the ride and then wine me and dine me at the ranch over the weekend, that I would then become his ticket to the "inner circle." I let him know as soon as I figured out who he was, that he might as well have another think coming, for his teachings are WAY off -- but his ego is so far invested in marketing his methodology that he is not ever going to stop doing it, withdraw all the harmful videotapes, and open himself to learning better.
And Carey, as to not knowing what Clinician XX is actually teaching -- again and again I have mentioned in this thread that I have been around longer than Clinician XX. Clinician XX never knew our elderly teacher, and never was with him, until after I had already been with him several years. Clinician XX came to our elderly teacher because he perceived that it would be good for his business success if he were to be seen with our elderly teacher. On one occasion he invited our elderly teacher to go for a little private stroll with him, and "just by chance" a photographer (who had been planted), popped out of the bushes and caught a snapshot of our teacher apparently having a private conversation with Clinician XX.
Our elderly teacher was unaware that this had been staged. When others pointed it out to him, he expressed to Clinician XX that it might just be as well if he didn't come to events anymore. I have also had the same thing happen: a certain saddlemaker and dressage enthusiast had a booth at a convention where I was speaking. He asked me to come over to his booth to view his saddles, and I agreed in all innocence. When I got there, luckily, I spotted the photographer and managed to turn my back before the photograph could be taken. I then informed the saddlemaker that he might as well not count on any help from me, at any time henceforth. You see, Carey, how very manipulative and self-serving a lot of people who work in the horse industry can be. They are, in my estimation, all alike: they operate from the fear that they will never have ENOUGH. This would be funny if it weren't so tragic (because all of them live in the greatest country on earth, where there is so much abundance that nobody could possibly use it all; and even more so, they live in a universe where God would love them, if they would only become aware of it and grateful for it).
Now the other thing I URGENTLY want to mention to you, Carey, is that whenever anyone has "....some kind of star quality," that should be your FIRST warning that you are in the presence of snake-oil salesmen. Honey, they depend upon the stars in your eyes to dull your brain and open your wallet. You are innocent, I think, but please -- come on -- wake up. Sometimes, folks, I don't know whether to laugh or cry but Carey might actually be grateful for the sort of help I am trying to give her here. -- Dr. Deb
Last edited on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 01:04 am by DrDeb
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Tutora
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 01:04 pm |
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| Hi Carey -You won't be disappointed. I say that as a naturally skeptical, need-to-dig-for-the-truth kind of person.
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Tutora
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 01:46 pm |
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| Hi Waldo and Jess--In the same vein as my above post, I have a sincere question. I saw XX ride his own horse over several days at a horse expo; I think it was in 2005. From what I saw in quite a number of situations in that arena, I would not have let him ride one of my horses. Previous to the expo, I had watched the X Xxxx'x tape which I'd received in late 2004. In that tape he's demonstrating with a chestnut Arab cross looking mare with a blaze and 3 stockings. I think he's in Australia. Is that video current? If it's not, has he hugely changed his teachings? The mare, who he says is doing well working on Level 2, is very stressed out 75% out the time---right down to the flapping Arab lower lip (not licking, though she calms right down and does relax her jaw when he's petting her). Her head is way up whenever he's asking her to move. And she's always looking way to the outside of any circles he puts her on. Was that mare just a casualty of his need to make a tape? He really seems to think she's going well. I really am asking this in a sincere manner: Again, has he greatly changed- not so much his words, but his actions-- over the past 3 years? His words didn't bother me--it was what he did and also what he failed to do for that mare and for his own horse when I saw him in person in 2005 that really bothered me. --with genuine regard, Elynne Last edited on Sun Oct 26th, 2008 01:49 pm by Tutora
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