David Genadek wrote: Barb,
You are correct that there are no stadardized terms in the saddle industry. How ever between english and western there are many terms that are the same but since the english tree has evolved from Brida style jousting saddles most of the terms are relative to the rider. The western tree has evoled through the jineta style of riding so most of the terms refer to the horse. I say that English saddles are built from the butt down and western saddles are built from the back up. Twist in english saddles refers to how the seat fits the horse. The term twist in the western world refers to how it fits the horse.
David Genadek Opps bad typo on this one where I said:
Twist in english saddles refers to how the seat fits the horse it should have said Human not horse.
If the horse's atropy is asymetrical- the job is harder, because then you really do have to be a shim/shim material and saddle pad expert - along with being a fitter -
It is not with in the realm of the saddle maker or fitter to correct staightness. If they try they generally add to the problem. The issues creating the asymentry should be addressed before the fitting takes place. It could be the teeth,the shoeing, bitting, internal issues,training or the rider but the saddle should be fitted straight. If shimming needs to be done then it should be done straight.
David Genadek
Let me explain what I mean about the asymetry I mentioned in my previous post.. Actually I see it quite alot, usually because someone calls me and says thier saddle is "crooked".
I do have to deal with this problem as a fitter & I agree with you that the saddle has to be fitted straight. And the saddle has to be of good enough quality so it IS straight (and not a piece of junk) or you can really proceed.
I see alot of clients who think their saddle is crooked, when it's not.
Here's an example:
If a rider posts on the same diagonal, and/or always allows the horse to use their favored lead when loping, and rider rides OFTEN in this mammer, then over time the horse will develope one side more than the other. Couple that with a rider who also caves their body to the same side the horse favors - and you'll end up with a horse more muscled on one side than the other - and a rider complaining the saddle is crooked.
So, in the case of asymetry: when the horses shoulders are viewed in shilloutte from behind - one shoulder will look higher than the other, and one will have more of a dip behind the shoulder blade than the other. ANd there is varying degrees of this- from slight to really obvious even to the untrained eye when it's pointed out.
Now (we know) this problem started from the (mis) use of the rear (engine) of the horse. But the results are more easily seen (and felt) seemingly in the front .
This becomes so obvious to the owner when it's pointed out. And condition will make the saddle feel like it's falling to one side because it IS falling to one side.
That is the type of case I was talking about.
In some instances- I had seen and evaluated the same horse 4 or 5 years prior - and the animal had symetrical shoulders/body then with a previous owner/rider. Some horses are ridden into crookedness as opposed to being born crooked.
So, in reality- the owners of these horses are *not* going to stop riding. AT least not the ones I meet. So if their saddle fits, then pad shimming has to happen (and be done correctly) and hopefully the rider changes their ways.. if the rider doesn't change then the horse won't.
Barb
DAVID SAID:
" It is not with in the realm of the saddle maker or fitter to correct staightness. If they try they generally add to the problem. The issues creating the asymentry should be addressed before the fitting takes place. It could be the teeth,the shoeing, bitting, internal issues,training or the rider but the saddle should be fitted straight. If shimming needs to be done then it should be done straight. "
With a bit of cunning plan I got the above files open, thanks so much for posting them, you are great at keeping things simple and easy to understand. I have a much clearer picture of what I am looking at regarding rigging and orientation in a saddle. My western saddle has inskirt rigging in all the wrong places, no wonder it won't sit on the horse properly...might have to turn it into a barstool?! A good look at Giant Shet, and he is a saddle fitters nightmare as far as I can see. Hammer headed and ewe necked, his wither sits down between two big shoulder blades, so saddle wants to head up behind his shoulders, his orientation in down hill, and a saggy tummy pushes the girth towards his front legs! (english saddle) In spite of all this he tells me of no saddle complaints...touch wood. The interesting thing for me was the other day he offered me a great gift of a moment of coiled loins and raised base of the neck...where did I end up sitting...blow me down A!! Am learning heaps, thanks for sharing David.
Let me explain what I mean about the asymetry I mentioned in my previous post.. Actually I see it quite alot, usually because someone calls me and says thier saddle is "crooked".
I do have to deal with this problem as a fitter & I agree with you that the saddle has to be fitted straight. And the saddle has to be of good enough quality so it IS straight (and not a piece of junk) or you can really proceed.
I see alot of clients who think their saddle is crooked, when it's not.
Here's an example:
If a rider posts on the same diagonal, and/or always allows the horse to use their favored lead when loping, and rider rides OFTEN in this mammer, then over time the horse will develope one side more than the other. Couple that with a rider who also caves their body to the same side the horse favors - and you'll end up with a horse more muscled on one side than the other - and a rider complaining the saddle is crooked.
So, in the case of asymetry: when the horses shoulders are viewed in shilloutte from behind - one shoulder will look higher than the other, and one will have more of a dip behind the shoulder blade than the other. ANd there is varying degrees of this- from slight to really obvious even to the untrained eye when it's pointed out.
Now (we know) this problem started from the (mis) use of the rear (engine) of the horse. But the results are more easily seen (and felt) seemingly in the front .
This becomes so obvious to the owner when it's pointed out. And condition will make the saddle feel like it's falling to one side because it IS falling to one side.
That is the type of case I was talking about.
In some instances- I had seen and evaluated the same horse 4 or 5 years prior - and the animal had symetrical shoulders/body then with a previous owner/rider. Some horses are ridden into crookedness as opposed to being born crooked.
So, in reality- the owners of these horses are *not* going to stop riding. AT least not the ones I meet. So if their saddle fits, then pad shimming has to happen (and be done correctly) and hopefully the rider changes their ways.. if the rider doesn't change then the horse won't.
Barb
DAVID SAID:
" It is not with in the realm of the saddle maker or fitter to correct staightness. If they try they generally add to the problem. The issues creating the asymentry should be addressed before the fitting takes place. It could be the teeth,the shoeing, bitting, internal issues,training or the rider but the saddle should be fitted straight. If shimming needs to be done then it should be done straight. "
Barb,
Before you embarrass yourself any further I would suggest you spend some time and read the Lessons from Woody article. In fact since you are passing yourself off as a professional saddle fitter you should take it to the next level and actually build the model and play with it. Once you fully grasp the paradigm you will then understand that the issue is outside of your realm. You will then also understand that to do what you suggest will lock the crookedness in place and encourage it further and totally prevent the rider from being able to feel what they need to feel. I would also encourage you to find a skilled rider with rehabbing experience to partner with so that you have a place to send your clients for the help they really need. As for the moral issue I can only hope that once you have a clear understanding of what you’re actually saying you will see the error of your ways.
David Genadek
All I can say is WOW. Ask youself: why the hostility and the need for condescension?
I didn''t realize this was a board with only one opinion... and it's quite telling you feel the need to chastise and marginalize my opinion in an open forum. .. quite telling.
Barb
David said in part"
"As for the moral issue I can only hope that once you have a clear understanding of what you’re actually saying you will see the error of your ways. "
David Genadek
With a bit of cunning plan I got the above files open, thanks so much for posting them, you are great at keeping things simple and easy to understand. I have a much clearer picture of what I am looking at regarding rigging and orientation in a saddle. My western saddle has inskirt rigging in all the wrong places, no wonder it won't sit on the horse properly...might have to turn it into a barstool?! A good look at Giant Shet, and he is a saddle fitters nightmare as far as I can see. Hammer headed and ewe necked, his wither sits down between two big shoulder blades, so saddle wants to head up behind his shoulders, his orientation in down hill, and a saggy tummy pushes the girth towards his front legs! (english saddle) In spite of all this he tells me of no saddle complaints...touch wood. The interesting thing for me was the other day he offered me a great gift of a moment of coiled loins and raised base of the neck...where did I end up sitting...blow me down A!! Am learning heaps, thanks for sharing David.
TTFN Sam
Thank you Sam. You must have offered Giant Shet something for him to offer you his gift. Thats when it gets really fun!!
It seems this notion of creating crooked saddles for crooked horses is gaining some ground in the market place today. I would urge every one to read and understand the Woody article as it is clear that many of the so called equine professionals have skipped this very important lesson. Today I watched some video of another saddle maker explaining why you need to stuff a saddle crooked. People are actually listening to this so buyer beware!!!
"The farrier, veterinarian-chiropractor, massage specialist, or other "support professional" is not a horse trainer, and horse owners must not call on him or her to do what is morally and practically their job. It is up to the rider to straighten the horse, not the others mentioned; yet they too must understand straightness in order to support the horse owner and see to it, for example, that the animal is trimmed and shod properly. Because I view the whole process as a team effort, not only aspects of horse training but veterinary-chiropractic and farriery are all integrated in the article below." Deb Bennett From Lessons From Woody
Your response to Barb's post about horse asymmetry was unbelievable! I can't imagine what you read in that post that you could find offensive or threatening. I have re-read Barbs post three times. Maybe there's something in there that's too subtle for me, but I only see a simple clarification about lateral asymmetries based on her direct experience. I don't see how her comments can be read to dispute the idea that riders/trainers are responsible for teaching straightness to the horses they ride.
I see the moral dilemma. If the fitter isn't going to try to help the person help the horse be straight, then they are supporting the pathology. Maybe a Woody model in the truck to use for the teaching....?
David's lengthy post up thread about that very moral issue struck me sound. What a difficult place in which to be working! If the saddle is straight and would fit the horse if the horse were straight, the work to do is with the person. And good luck to anyone telling people what to do with their horse (or telling them that what they're doing is wrong)! Some of the most difficult people (pathological I swear) I've ever met are in the horse world which is one of the reasons I stay home most of the time. Conversely, it's quite a terrific experience to get to clinics that are directed by those who understand this, seek to teach this, and attended by students who are open to learning it. (And sometimes, students don't come back b/c they cannot or will not be taught) If you love horses, you will agonize over this. David, it must consume you at times?
I sat in all three positions bareback and saddled last night. My gelding is slightly swayed so bareback, I end up b/t A & B. He stepped under himself most easily when I was in that natural place bareback, seem mildly bothered when I'm back further. He rocked back onto the haunches easiest in the natural position too.
Great discussion. In restudying Birdie Book, this is hammered home over and over.
In addition, I wasn't suggesting that saddles be built crooked or stuffed crooked for crooked horses.
I was talking about my (fitting) experience in the real world with real people and real horses .
None of the horses (or riders) that call me are perfect - most are having problems or they wouldn't be calling. I use my experience to help people who want the help to understand what the horse needs, how he may have gotten the way he is (if he is crooked or sore) and hopefully be able to either give them what they need in the way of knowledge, or equipment, or be able to point them in the right direction to fix their particular problem. I wasn't trying to pass myself off as anything other than what I am.
I fully agree, as HORSEMEN (and I don't use that word lightly) we have a high degree of responsibility to the horse.
I also understand from working in the real world (with people of various financial means ) most people usually WANT to do the right thing by the horse.
But then I meet quite a few people that don't care... who simply USE the horse.. and that's when I'm there for THAT horse. - That's MY ethic - I do what I can when the opportunity rises - for the horse..
I don't view this whole 'understanding and helping the horse" as a competition.
Ben
I would be happy to explain my comments as I think it is really important for horse owners to learn to listen to the people they are hiring to help them with their horse issues. First let me make it very clear that I don’t know Barb and have nothing against her. The things she has stated are common beliefs with in the saddle industry. These ideas are injuring horses and their owners.
If there is a Holy Grail of horsemanship it is straightness. It is a foundational concept for anyone in the saddle trade and it is essential that anyone passing them off as a professional saddle fitter, maker or seller has enough of a grasp on the concept to know when the issue is outside of their ability to fix. When it is they should refer the customer to someone that has the qualifications to correct the issue at the cause. They should never adjust the saddle to the problem. The problem should be resolved before the saddle is fit.
“So, in reality- the owners of these horses are *not* going to stop riding. AT least not the ones I meet. So if their saddle fits, then pad shimming has to happen (and be done correctly) and hopefully the rider changes their ways.. if the rider doesn't change then the horse won't.”
So ask yourself if you’re paying this person as a professional to help you with your saddle issue should they ignore the real issue and just pad the saddle in a way that will lock in the crookedness and prevent the rider from feeling that which they need to learn to properly support? Or would the professional thing to do, be to help you understand straightness and refer you to someone that can help achieve it?
David Genadek
If you were my client, at this point I would cease listening to you and listen only to the horse.
It is obvious we cannot communicate on this topic. Please re-read what I said:
" None of the horses (or riders) that call me are perfect - most are having problems or they wouldn't be calling. I use my experience to help people who want the help to understand what the horse needs, how he may have gotten the way he is (if he is crooked or sore) and hopefully be able to either give them what they need in the way of knowledge, or equipment, or be able to point them in the right direction to fix their particular problem. I wasn't trying to pass myself off as anything other than what I am.
END QUOTE
Barb
David said in Part:
QUOTE: .................. and it is essential that anyone passing them off as a professional saddle fitter, maker or seller has enough of a grasp on the concept to know when the issue is outside of their ability to fix. When it is they should refer the customer to someone that has the qualifications to correct the issue at the cause. END QUOTE
My intent with this thread was to bring to light some of the contradictions in the industry starting from where the industry says they are trying to get you to sit to where you actually end up. I have put up several postings to demonstrate concepts that I see as critical for the horse owner to understand to be able to make rational informed decisions. It is essential that horse owners have information that can help them decide what kind of help they actually need. As a horse owner you have a constant flutter of people trying to tell you that you need their services, as a rule; if they have to tell you that you need them you don’t.
Currently flexible trees are all the rage. This is what you’re told:
“Building a saddle with a flexible bar that can adjust to the confirmation of the animal significantly widens the range of animals that will fit any particular tree design. Perhaps an even greater benefit to a flexible tree is the fact that the tree will move with the horse instead of against it. When a horse turns or bends his body the tree will "get out of the way" of the animal's shoulders and hips. Whether riding for pleasure or in competitive events the xxxxxx tree will adapt to a wide range of motions.”
Here is the reality.
I've never heard of a flexible tree. I have seen advertisements for saddles using flexible panels with similar claims to those noted in David's note, i.e. that they won't restrict the horse's bending back. In theory, this sounds great to me. As seen in the video in David's note, implementing such ideas can be challenging. We certainly don't want to have the tree jabbing the horse's spine every stride. I'll have to check with the local saddlery to ask about flexible trees and see what they say.
...Ben
