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Hopes Promise
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 Posted: Mon Oct 22nd, 2012 03:53 am
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Hi, just wondering if someone could please tell me if this new guy I just purchased has a ewe neck? I'm in the process of starting him under saddle, hence have not been feeding him a great deal, as have found feed is heating him up and making him hard to work with. Anyway, because he has lost a bit of weight his neck is appearing to have a quite noticable dip before the whithers, and I'm having issues determining if it's a swan or ewe neck.


He does not appear to have a hammerhead, but does have quite over developed muscles under is neck.


Please help -- I'm freaking out a little bit, will try and post a few pics, Thanks :)

Attachment: _samartarique013_1340507926.jpg (Downloaded 279 times)

Last edited on Mon Oct 22nd, 2012 02:17 pm by DrDeb

Hopes Promise
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 Posted: Mon Oct 22nd, 2012 04:07 am
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Another picture :) For some reason I can't upload the other pics I have since he has dropped a little weight, they files are too big perhaps; will keep trying :)

Attachment: _samartarique008_1340507925.jpg (Downloaded 270 times)

Last edited on Mon Oct 22nd, 2012 02:18 pm by DrDeb

Hopes Promise
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 Posted: Mon Oct 22nd, 2012 06:37 am
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Oh also as you can see from the pictures, Samar tracks beautifully and to me does not appear to hollow out in his back. He is a purebred Arabian gelding I plan to do endurance on him as he has exceptional coloninal/crabbet bloodlines and a lot of winners in his pedigree :). I was aware when I bought him that his neck was not his best feature, but at the time was certain it was just the over-developed muscles underneath his neck and his temprement of gold far outweighed his neck lol... looking forward to peoples' opinions, thanks :)

Last edited on Mon Oct 22nd, 2012 02:14 pm by DrDeb

DrDeb
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 Posted: Mon Oct 22nd, 2012 02:27 pm
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Dear Hope: You will have noted that I have edited your three posts above so that they approximate Current Standard English. In future, if you want help here, you will kindly refrain from using any form of 'thumb language' or 'thumb spelling' as you might if you were posting to Twitter. Our purpose here is clear communication, which is impossible unless you use proper capitalization and punctuation and correct grammar.

As to whether your animal has a ewe neck, he does not. Neither are the muscles under his neck "over-developed".

He is a very average specimen of the Arabian breed. He has no faults that would prevent him from being a good endurance horse, or a good jumper, cutter, reiner, or anything else -- ASSUMING that the person handling, riding, and training him is competent.

From all you say, that person is not you. It is, to begin with, egregiously cruel to cut back a horse's feed in order to make him more tractable. The reason the horse seems to you to be difficult to handle is that you really don't know how to start a young horse under saddle, but in a cutesey-pie kind of way, you are trying to kid yourself and me that you are competent. Out of your own mouth, you are not; and don't figure on fooling me.

If you truly care about your horse, you will take him as soon as possible to either Harry Whitney or Buck Brannaman or Josh Nichol -- whichever of them shows up soonest; or else to Wayne Anderson when he comes home to visit; or else to Brenton Matthews, who lives outside Adelaide. Every person on this list has started dozens or even hundreds of young horses, and certainly does know how. Even better, they can teach you how.

However, nobody will be able to teach you if you get defensive about what you have been told here, because then you will not permit it. So you fix it up within yourself to where you commit to going to find a teacher -- for your horse's sake. -- Dr. Deb

Hopes Promise
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 Posted: Mon Oct 22nd, 2012 11:03 pm
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Dear Dr Deb, I'm terribly sorry for the "thumb spelling" and in future will refrain from using such text.
Thankyou for advice, I'm very glad to have a second opinion on my horse's neck.
In regards to cutting his feed back I should explain further and correct myself: I have only just purchased this gelding and I have changed his feeds gradually from what the breeder fed him to the diet I feed my young horses. The breeder had him on a very different diet to what I choose to feed ie more sugars so I needed to cut that back and incoporate the vitamins and minerals I use.
I wasn't actually asking for advice on starting my horse but again thankyou for your opinion, I'am having great success starting this gelding under saddle as he has a temperment of gold(now I have taken sugars out) he is not the first horse I have started, there has been others that have gone onto be lovely riding horses and lets face it even Buck had to start somewhere right???
Also I have been studying conformation, I have my eye in on legs etc as I bought a pony years ago and had to learn the hard way about angular limbs.
BUT necks are not my strong point, as all my other horses have stunning necks therefore I think there is something SLIGHTLY off with my new geldings neck because it is not as perfect as my other horses, as you pointed out it may just be that it is average, I do think his muscles are over developed however I'm sure when he learns to look lower for his balance the neck will shape out nicely.

Last edited on Mon Oct 22nd, 2012 11:22 pm by Hopes Promise

DrDeb
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 Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2012 01:16 am
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Hope, I appreciate your good attitude toward learning how to do things better. However, I'm not sure I've really gotten through to you, as you seem to sort of shrug off some of the meaning of my reply.

As to Buck having "started somewhere": If you've seen Buck's autobiographical movie or read his autobiographical book, you will realize that where Buck started from was the roughest, crudest place imaginable. Only when he met our teacher, Ray Hunt, did he began to make a come-around and improvement. He had a lot of talent -- that's not that uncommon actually -- but it was all mean-spirited, and the techniques he had learned from his father were in many cases simply brutal. Their horses were trained through fear. It is from THIS place that Buck started. So you also need to do what Buck did, and go find a teacher to help you. It is for love of your horses that you would do this.

As to the so-called "overdevelopment" of the muscles on the underside of this gelding's neck: I repeat, they are not overdeveloped. I do not deny that the muscles do bulge, but what I'm telling you is that you misunderstand the bulge. The bulge is not due to the muscles being overdeveloped; it is due to the fact that the gelding has a rather long neck and yet does not carry it very well. Your failure to correctly understand this is another measure of how you're unqualified to train horses: about as unqualified as 90% of the people out there who pretend to know how to train a horse. The first thing that a person who misunderstands this type of neck is going to do is wind up (posturally) 'breaking' it at both ends: backwards at the base, and downwards at the joint between the axis and third cervical vertebra.

What would be the specific training regimen that a horse with this type of neck would require so that he learns the two most important physical things, which are to coil the loins and to raise THE BASE of the neck? (Note that I have not said that he needs to either raise OR lower the poll. Beware! This horse DOES NOT carry his head too high. He carries THE BASE OF THE NECK too LOW. Use of a training fork or running martingale, German reins, side reins, draw reins -- any of these -- will totally ruin this horse).

 So this is what you absolutely must NOT do. But what is it that you need to do, or what are his specific and particular needs, O you who claim to be qualified? -- Dr. Deb

DrDeb
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 Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2012 01:17 am
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Hope, I appreciate your good attitude toward learning how to do things better. However, I'm not sure I've really gotten through to you, as you seem to sort of shrug off some of the meaning of my reply.

As to Buck having "started somewhere": If you've seen Buck's autobiographical movie or read his autobiographical book, you will realize that where Buck started from was the roughest, crudest place imaginable. Only when he met our teacher, Ray Hunt, did he began to make a come-around and improvement. He had a lot of talent -- that's not that uncommon actually -- but it was all mean-spirited, and the techniques he had learned from his father were in many cases simply brutal. Their horses were trained through fear. It is from THIS place that Buck started. So you also need to do what Buck did, and go find a teacher to help you. It is for love of your horses that you would do this.

As to the so-called "overdevelopment" of the muscles on the underside of this gelding's neck: I repeat, they are not overdeveloped. I do not deny that the muscles do bulge, but what I'm telling you is that you misunderstand the bulge. The bulge is not due to the muscles being overdeveloped; it is due to the fact that the gelding has a rather long neck and yet does not carry it very well. Your failure to correctly understand this is another measure of how you're unqualified to train horses: about as unqualified as 90% of the people out there who pretend to know how to train a horse. The first thing that a person who misunderstands this type of neck is going to do is wind up (posturally) 'breaking' it at both ends: backwards at the base, and downwards at the joint between the axis and third cervical vertebra.

What would be the specific training regimen that a horse with this type of neck would require so that he learns the two most important physical things, which are to coil the loins and to raise THE BASE of the neck? (Note that I have not said that he needs to either raise OR lower the poll. Beware! This horse DOES NOT carry his head too high. He carries THE BASE OF THE NECK too LOW. Use of a training fork or running martingale, German reins, side reins, draw reins -- any of these -- will totally ruin this horse).

 So this is what you absolutely must NOT do. But what is it that you need to do, or what are his specific and particular needs, O you who claim to be qualified? -- Dr. Deb

Hopes Promise
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 Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2012 04:24 am
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I never claimed to be qualififed, I simply stated that everyone has to start somewhere and honestly did not sign up to your website to have my horsemanship skills picked to peices by a person that has no idea on my methodology used to start horses.O u who makes assumptions?
I have seen Buck's autobiography and have a healthy respect for him as a person, I too have seeked help from professionals and hope one day to be professional myself, again u were assuming I have not.
Yes I may not be up to scratch as far as conformation is concerned BUT I'am learning and researching(have learnt the hard way like most horse owners buy owning a horse with conformational faults). Hence I need to learn ALOT more about the mechanics of the horse, I agree.
I not once claimed to be a "know all" like you keep implying I'am the first to admit I'am constantly learning when it comes to our equine friends.
I feel proud of my progress with my new boy Samar thus far and will not put up with anyone trying to put a dampener on my success with my beautiful new boy.
I can appreciate the fact that you are voicing your concerns however I know with in myself that all my horses are very happy, mentally/physically sound and have the best of care.
Those pictures I posted of Samar like I said were taken within the first few days I purchased him, he on his own accord is learning to lower his neck as he gets his balance on the longe, I'am concentrating on strenghening his lions and getting his hinquarters underneath him by getting him to move correctly, I love all my horses and want the best for them and although u have offended me I will take your advice to ensure I'am doing the right thing by my horse to get the best from him.
I honestly believe their is a nicer way to offer one's advice without of trying to insult them.

Last edited on Tue Oct 23rd, 2012 04:25 am by Hopes Promise

Hopes Promise
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 Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2012 10:20 am
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Some methods I have used with starting this young gelding include:
Note I have NOT raised my voice or EVER raised a hand to this gelding.
I concentrate firstly on EXSTENSIVE ground work. This envolves lots of disengaging the hindquaters and shoulders(yields) I even have certain rountines I use everytime I handle him for example if I lead him through a open gate he must walk through the gate and while I'am shutting the gate he must turn, face me and disengage his hindquarters twice, one yield is not enough I will ask for two by focusing my energy and looking at his hinquarters. I do this everytime we go out a gate so he knows it is expected and it becomes a routine.
When I first got Samar he had a lazy stance, I corrected this by everytime I was around him(even if just standing in the paddock without a halter) I would gentley remind him to stand up square usually by backing him up until he was standing properly than leave him alone, I never have to remind him now.
I have Samar working off voice commands this took me a good week and abit but he now 100% understands what I'am asking, walk on, trot on, canter, WHOA, back up, I taught him this to take up into the saddle with me obviously.
I mainly with all my horses work on building their trust and partnership, I treat them with the upmost respect and I do ALOT of lunging to build them up, get them fit, concentrate on collection,strethening loin etc and some driving. I like to use old traditional lunging techniques but I also incoporate my own spin by using my energy to get the horse to say pick his shoulder up, do a working trot etc
I use methods I have learnt from others but have added little changes here and there to suit my horses and I.
That is a very basic rundown of the way I do things, obviously there is a heck more envolved, I have never had to be forceful in anyway with this gelding he did have a few excitable days(to be expected) all in all he has been an angel so far and I'm so proud of him!!!
I have no doubt people will disagree with the way I do things, I can accept constructive critiscim, I'am however overly protective when it comes to my horses as I know within myself I'am doing the best by them :)

DrDeb
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 Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2012 11:42 am
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Yup, this is what I thought, Hope....you have either no idea at all, or where you have heard of something, it's been from the very guru or his licensees of whom we most disapprove. They prey on the weak-minded, the inexperienced, the ego-involved, and all those who secretly wish to be dependent.

I make no assumptions, Hope, and the more you talk the deeper the hole you dig for yourself. If you are criticized it is out of your own mouth; for indeed, I have nothing else to go on.

If you come here, Hope, you are coming into my classroom, and that means that you will be under my direction so long as you choose to come. What you "signed up for" is exactly that. I respond to everybody with exactly what I believe they need.

What YOU need is to learn a great deal more, and of what ideas you have, you need to lose them and begin again fresh, from the beginning. Please go find Harry or Buck, and for goodness sakes, stop talking about "disengaging the hindquarter". You would know not to do this if you had done any homework at all before coming into this classroom -- that is, homework in the form of having taken the trouble to use the Google advanced search function to study threads that have already been posted here which relate to the physical aspects of training.

Go and at least read the basic papers! To wit:

"Lessons from Woody"

"True Collection"

"The Ring of Muscles"

-- to be found in the "Knowledge Base" section of our main website. Come back AFTER that, and don't come just to get "a few pointers". That's one of the main attitudes you need to lose! -- Dr. Deb


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