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meelie
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2012 11:20 pm |
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| Dr. Deb, have you done any studies on bits causing pain or discomfort to horses? I keep reading that even the kindest of snaffles causes discomfort. I know that in the wrong hands anything can cause pain but some are saying even the kindest hands will cause discomfort with metal in his mouth. They explain about the bars being so very sensitive and so forth. I would really like to know your take on this subject.
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DrDeb
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2012 12:27 am |
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Meelie, there is an unethical and greedy person with a veterinary degree out there who markets a so-called "bitless bridle" device. The unethical nature of his advertising is that he uses scare tactics or scary language, including absolutes such as "all bits of any type hurt horses." Scary language of this kind works very well to sell "bitless bridles" to folks such as yourself, who have very little real experience.
You do not need to worry about any bit hurting your horse's mouth. The first reason for this is that I can't imagine that you have any INTENTION of hurting.
The second reason is that the bit, by itself, can do no harm whatsoever.
To do harm, it takes the human being. And the human being can certainly use any type of bit to do harm. The human being does this either (1) by intending to do harm, or (2) by being ignorant of how to select a bit, of how to fit a bit properly, and/or by being unskillful or uninformed as to the use of the particular bit.
So you know where you need to go now, Meelie: you need to go to a horseman for instruction. Go to an older, experienced horse man or woman in your neighborhood, someone whose horses look comfortable, particularly when they are working. It is very important that you go to someone who actually DOES ask their horses to work. Please do not go to someone who is a flake -- someone who owns horses but is afraid to ride or work them. We see quite a bit of that, so you will need to look out, because being in the company of a flake is not healthy.
When you find your teacher, then you can ask particular questions about how different bits are supposed to work, how they fit certain horses or are "fitting" for certain horses but not others.
Now, before we leave this query, I will tell you a true story. I once had some friends -- a nice married couple -- who lived in a nearby town. They would often invite me to their home for dinner, but when anyone arrived at their front door, there was always a giant hullaballoo caused by their three dogs. One dog would growl and snarl and seriously threaten to attack or bite. The second dog would bark furiously and jump up. And the third dog would let you in, but then it would piss on your boot.
In short -- they were very nice people, but they knew zero about how to assist their animals by training them. Their dogs ran their household, and a good chunk of the conversation whenever I came over to visit would necessarily be their repeated apologies for their dogs' behavior, with which they would invariably mix their excuses for why the behavior occurred. A large amount of these excuses revolved around how they had rescued the dogs from previous bad owners -- in other words, it was real handy to blame somebody else. But of course, in reality ALL the excuses were entirely made up out of the couple's own imaginations, because the one and only reason that the dogs acted the way they did was because the couple did not know how to train or control them, and did not have the foresight, insight, or backbone to impose proper order or balance in their household.
Now, among the opinions quite strongly held by this couple was that people should always be kind to animals. They did not own horses, nor had they any actual experience with training horses, but nonetheless they were of the opinion that bitting the horse is unkind and that no horse should ever wear a bit.
One fine summer day, this couple came out to visit me and Painty Horse at the ranch. We had a great time: I rode my horse in a bit, and then they each had a little ride on him in the bit, and then I taught them how to induce Painty to step up on the circus drum. I rode Painty that day through his entire repertory of movements, i.e. all the gaits, all the normal transitions, lateral work, passage, pirouettes, rein-backs, and so forth. Because I know how to ride and train, old Painty was collected the entire time, as he must be indeed to do many of those movements; but we used to make a game out of asking observers to say when they would see me either use my legs or take the slack out of the reins. So the couple was like everybody else: they couldn't see any kicking or pulling, and that would be because there was no constraint.
And after that day, to their very great credit, the couple revised their opinion, and I have not heard them say to anyone after that, that they thought bits were cruel or uncomfortable or unkind, nor that there would be anything wrong with riding a horse in a bit; only that ignorant or brutal people should not be allowed on horseback or anywhere around horses, and with this I fully agree.
Now, all of my students also learn to ride in the same manner that I do; and if you would like to see what manner that is, you can go get yourself a copy of Buck Brannaman's movie by going to the Eclectic Horseman mercantile, where they make the DVD available essentially at cost. There is some beautiful work on there. Or you can obtain materials from Josh Nichol, also a teacher in our school of philosophy. Or you can flip through the pages of any issue of The Eclectic Horseman to see more of our friends. Or, you can look through "Knowledge Base" by going to http://www.equinestudies.org and get numerous free PDF documents that will automatically download into your computer, many of which have photos of me and Painty or me and Oliver, my Rocky Mountain gelding.
My point in mentioning this is that if my students can learn how properly to use a bit, then you can too, Meelie. It will be very good if you quit worrying; go find a good teacher who is not only good of heart but also skillful and experienced; and refrain, insofar as you possibly can, from judging on the basis of fear or false premises. Learn a little bit more, and then you will be much more able to discriminate teaching and practices that are kind to the horse through being firm and clear, from those that are unkind through poor design, lack of skill or knowledge, or from a wrongheaded belief that good horse training is all about being "nice". It is not about being nice, Meelie; it's about being clear, and for this a bit is a tool of communication. -- Dr. Deb
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Roger Ward
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2012 01:18 pm |
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For me, there are only two types of riding horses: ones that I have fallen off of and ones that I will fall of in the future. I am a middle aged rider with only average balance and at least a couple times a year I come out of the saddle while doing more adventurous stuff with green horses. When I am come out of the saddle, the only thing I have to hold on to is the reigns and I will do that with a death grip. With the reigns connected to a bit, my poor balance, bad reaction time, or bad idea that caused the fall will put a lot of stress on the horse's mouth.
To avoid that stress on the horses mouth I choose to ride with a bosel or just a rope halter with some reigns clipped on to it. Just yesterday, I was working with a green horse and was lightly trotting her through a set of gymkhana poles. At the end pole, the mare's hind end slipped out from under her and down we both went. The horse got up off my leg and I am still hanging on to the reigns. Had it been a bit that the reins were connected to, she would probably nave pulled the bit out through her front teeth. Since she was wearing a rope halter, there was nothing worse than a little neck strain. I know full well that I am using my choice of head gear to short cut proper ground training of the horse, and riding lessons and exercises for my self. That said, I would rather ride the horses, than take the time to do the other stuff.
PS. The bitless bridle is a overpriced gimmick. If you have enough upper body strength to one rein stop a spooked horse with the bitless bridle, you can ride with a rope halter and save yourself $50 bucks.
PS PS Can you recommend a good equine vet near Lodi CA for a lameness exam?
Roger Ward
Acampo CA
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DrDeb
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2012 12:01 am |
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Roger, you remind me of the White Rabbit in 'Alice in Wonderland': always running after time, but never catches up.
From your letter here I take it that you'd rather suffer pain and injuries -- and all the lost time through being laid up that this implies -- than take the time to learn how to avoid falling off or getting bucked or spun off. And I take it that you'd rather spend money on hospital E.R. visits and doctor bills and higher insurance premiums, than spend a much smaller amount on lessons.
Why don't you come ride in our clinic at the Lazy S Ranch in Oakdale the first weekend in June, Roger? Then maybe we can figure out together what it is that's causing you to fall off or be dumped, and then we can fix it so that it doesn't happen anymore. -- Dr. Deb
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meelie
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2012 02:57 pm |
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Thank you Dr. Deb, but I'm afraid we have a lack of communication. I've been riding, albeit trail riding, for over 55 yrs. I'm "mature" LOL. I have ridden with bits and without bits, with bosals, halters even at one ignorant time of my life I used a mechanicial hackamore. Fortunately, I have good hands and a very understanding horse so there was no damage or pain involved. It is through all these years that I have come upon some people talking and writing about bits and pain. The most interesting info has been about the sensitivity of the bars. Pictures show how the bit sits on the bars and people have written about it causing "discomfort" and I know that in the wrong hands it can cause pain.
So, that is the biggest reason that I was asking.
I do appreciate your time in answering. Would you go a little further and give me your take on the sensitivity of the bars and the metal rubbing there.
I do so wish though, that people would have to pass a test before being a allowed to own a horse. The abuse they take from people who know and don't know better causes my heart to break.
Thanks.
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Guest
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2012 11:55 pm |
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| I too would be very interested in Dr Debs reply to meelies question about the bars. Putting aside the ethics of the bitless bridle seller, I am interested in how a foreign object in a mouth can do no harm. How do you define harm? Does a bit cause pressure just by its very presence? Does its presence lead to dorsal displacement of the soft palate and pulmonary heamorrhage as is suggested?
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DrDeb
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Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2012 05:53 am |
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Meelie, my apologies for misunderstanding your level of experience. Yet it does seem a bit odd that you seem not to know where different types of bit actually contact the mouth (that is, where they contact it before the rider ever picks up the reins). Likewise, Guest, by the very nature of your question, you seem not to know how to properly fit a bit.
So, let's begin this learning session in my usual way, with some questions which either of you may answer (or other people).
First question: Given a 'standard' snaffle bit that has a mouthpiece consisting of two cannons joined in the center, let us assume that the cannons are perfectly straight. Let us further assume that the bit is the right size, i.e. the distance between the inner surfaces of the butts exactly equals the distance across the horse's lips at the commissures, so that when placed in the mouth there is neither pinching of the lips, nor overhang of the cannon on either side. Finally we will assume that the bit is hung correctly, i.e. somewhere in the bar space between the anterior aspects of the first cheek teeth and the posterior aspects of the canines (if large canines are present) or the posterior aspects of the lateral incisor teeth (if small or no canines are present).
Given all these things, the question is -- upon what tissue or bodypart does the mouthpiece of the bit rest?
And a second question, related to the first: what factor or factors among the 'givens' would we have to change in order to cause the bit to come into constant contact with the bars?
Third question: What factor or factors among the 'givens' would we have to change in order to cause the bit to come into intermittent contact with the bars?
I pose the questions in this way, along with the 'givens', not only to teach you the factors that are involved in designing, selecting, and fitting a snaffle bit, but also to get you to think the whole problem through in a systematic way. -- Dr. Deb
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Jamsession
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Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2012 11:52 pm |
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I'd like a stab at this.
The mouthpiece of said snaffle bit would rest on the tongue.
As for the second and third questions, these I'm not so sure of but here's my guess: in order for the mouthpiece to come in constant contact with the bars, it seems the bit would have to be too big, i.e. the cannons would have to extend past the folds of the horse's mouth, so as to weigh the pressure in the mouth on the lateral aspects of the tongue and on the bars...for the bit to come in intermittent contact with the bars, wouldn't the mouthpiece, i.e. both cannons, need to have some curve and perhaps be double jointed instead of single jointed, at least enough so that the center lies flat on the tongue and drapes over the bars?
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DrDeb
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Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2012 08:33 am |
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Yes, Jam, very good. You have the questions mostly correct and where you don't, it may be my fault for not having made the question or 'givens' clear enough. To wit:
(1) A snaffle-type mouthpiece consisting of 2 straight cannons joined in the center, which is the right size for the horse, rests or "floats" on the tongue. In other words, unless somebody pulls downward on the bit-rings -- not backward but downward with enough force so that the tongue gets squashed, the bit rests entirely upon the tongue as a person's head would rest upon a bed-pillow. When a horse having normal mouth anatomy has its mouth closed, the anterior part of the tongue is bigger than the space between the left and right jaw rami, so that the tongue always overlaps the bars unless the horse retracts it. Thus, in order for the cannons of a snaffle bit to come into contact with the bars, the tongue must either first be pinched between the cannon and the bar, or else retracted. The horse may do the latter of his own volition, and if he chooses this, he may either simply retract the tongue or else first retract it and then thrust it forward above the bit, in which case again the cannons will come into contact with the bars.
The important point here is the part about the rider pulling the bit downwards toward the bars with enough force to squash or pinch the tongue. There is no necessary relationship between a bit being in a horse's mouth and the force that may be exerted upon the bit; and if anyone doubts that it is possible to learn to ride so that the tongue never gets squashed, let me reassure you -- it is not only possible, but folks like the White Rabbit in this thread ought to be making learning how to do that a priority instead of an excuse.
(2) In order for the bit to be in continuous contact with the bars, we either have to have a bit that is too wide, just as you say Jam, or else we have to bend the cannons. A bit that is too wide hangs out of either side of the mouth, forming an "A" shape the apex of which pokes or gouges the horse's palate. The legs of the "A" slant off the sides of the tongue, tend to squash the tongue inward, and ride on the sides of the bars. A bit contacting the sides of the bars is not likely to cause either pain or injury -- the Segundo/Maestro design, for example, does this while being very comfortable for the horse to which it is fitted. But a snaffle bit is not designed with all the features of a Segundo/Maestro, which certainly also does not gouge the horse in the palate.
The really serious problem comes with redesigning the cannons so that they have an S-bend in them. This will bring the cannons into continuous contact not only with the sides of the bars but with the dorsal ridge. Such bits are commonly sold as "corrector bits" and most tack catalogs will list them as severe. They are designed to push the tongue to the center and to rest upon the bars. In this case it does not matter whether the rider pulls firmly on the reins or not; this type of bit sits continuously upon the bars.
(3) In order for the bit to be in intermittent contact, you can have any type of bit, fitted or adjusted in any manner, just so long as you have a rider who reefs and pulls. It is the human that brings the cannon of the bit down against the bars like a hammer. Even an S-shaped "corrector bit" that actually rests upon the bars does not, all by itself, either hammer or pressure the bars.
Now we are ready for the next set of thoughts and questions.
(1) Let's envision the typical racing Thoroughbred who in the course of its work normally goes with its head extended forward. If the jockey "water skis", i.e. rides with his feet thrust forward, holding his butt up off the saddle by means of the reins, we can assume that there is indeed considerable pressure being exerted upon the reins by the jockey, i.e. an amount of pounds to equal a good fraction of his bodyweight. When the snaffle bit is used in this context, is it pulled down against the horse's bars?
(2) Describe two different situations in which the angle of pull on the reins would bring the snaffle down against the bars and/or pinch the tongue.
(3) Assuming an expert rider on a balanced and brace-free horse, so that enough pressure to squash the tongue or bring the bit against the bars never happens, can you think of design changes which might make the snaffle bit either more or less comfortable for the horse? These would involve the shape of the cannons, the size (thickness) of the cannons, the manner of joining the two cannons, the number of links composing the mouthpiece, and the manner in which the cannons are joined to the butts.
Have fun especially with this last one....designing bits can be a "one from column A, two from column B" kind of exercise, but not all possible combinations work very well. Time has tested and proven some others however! -- Dr. Deb
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renoo
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Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2012 12:45 pm |
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I'll try this one.
(1) The jockey is pulling the bit towards himself, so it is generally pulling it towards the cheek teeth. if the horse retracts his tounge or throws it over the bit, then to some extent the bit could meet the bars, especially if the horse decided to bend his head vertically. I assume the horse would try to resist the bit going against his teeth with the power of the tounge and lip corners.
(2) one situation I can imagine is when the reins are fixed somewhere down - like draw reins. another - the horse having his head bent in a way that the jaw line is perpendicular to the line of reins. one more would be the human on the ground.
(3) very bulky cannons, or very thin cannons. the first take to omuch space and thus create an uncomfortable feeling, and the extremly thin ones could pinch just with the weight of reins.
a comfortable joint is one that lies flat against the tounge, so some bump added there to make it less comfortable. and then I'm out of ideas right now...
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meelie
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Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2012 01:22 pm |
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I enjoy reading this post. And thank you Dr. Deb. Wish I had pictures.
Now the question is, when the horse has the beautifully arched necks so that the bars seem to be perpendicular to the ground, is the pressure on the bars then?
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Jamsession
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Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2012 03:05 pm |
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1) I agree with renoo. The horse would be taking the brunt of the bit pressure against the corners of the mouth and the cheek teeth. I'd imagine the horse would brace against the big considerably with the tongue; the bit may not be hitting the horse's bars, but it's still certain to be mighty uncomfortable.
2) If the horse is being forced to carry his head behind the vertical, so the rider is pulling straight back with the reins and the horse responds by tucking his head so far back that he could be carrying his chin to his chest, it would certainly squash the tongue and place pressure on the bars. Also, like renoo said, if the rider is on the ground and the horse brings his head very high, and the rider reacts by pulling down, squashing the tongue and pressuring the bars. Also, similiar to the "deep" position, if the horse has a very high head carriage, like we see in a lot of show-trained gaited horses, and they are forced to carry their head very, very tucked, the rider balances on their hands and puts enormous pressure on the tongue and thus the bars.
3) You've mentioned, Dr. Deb, that basic geometry tells us that regardless of how big a circle is, it still only comes in contact with a line at one point. So that suggests that thinner cannons are better; not so thin that they have a cutting action, but thin enough that the horse doesn't feel like he's carrying a lead pipe around in his mouth. Very thick or very thin are both going to be uncomfortable. Smooth cannons would be better: textured cannons or those with a twist wouldn't allow for even contact in the mouth. Any jointed piece that doesn't lie flat against the tongue is going to create a pressure point, and thus wouldn't be desirable.
As for how the cannons join to the butts...stability seems important. Something that is joined very loosely with lots of wiggle room could pinch the lips. Other than that I'm out of ideas too.
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meelie
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Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2012 04:36 pm |
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So, what about the "french link snaffle" with the flat surface connecting the two other parts?
I know I sound like a novice but I've just never really thought about this before. I've never shown only trail ridden and have until now never raised and trained my own horse. So all this is very interesting to me. Thanks.
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snazzywildpony
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Posted: Wed Apr 4th, 2012 02:33 am |
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I will take a stab at answering this question. If you ride correctly there should be no backward traction on the reins only a feel of the tongue from a hand that reaches for the mouth with the outside rein. The horse with the beautifully arched neck, if ridden correctly will be ridden from the rear, engaging his ring of muscles, and lifting from the base of the neck. Essentially, the beauty of the arched neck is a byproduct of correct riding, not forced by restraining the horse with the hand.
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DrDeb
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Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2012 06:51 am |
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Renoo, Meelie, Snazzy, and everyone else who replied to this: great work. Meelie, I do very much appreciate hearing you say you had not really thought about this before, but that this thread is helping you to visualize what "can" really go on. As you have already seen -- the issue is not really about "pain"; it's about knowing how to select and fit a bit, and understanding different ways of using the bit that create different effects.
The general principle that the group of you has now discovered is that when the snaffle bit is pulled parallel to the line of the commissure of the horse's lips, it does not bear on the bars. Rather, it rides along the tongue until it gets to the corners of the lips. Then, if the rider continues to pull on the reins, the corners of the lips are pulled back until the cannons of the bit bump into the anterior cheek teeth. There the bit must stop, unless the horse opens his mouth and 'takes the bit in his teeth' -- actually quite a rare reaction.
Rather than do this, what most horses do is retract the tongue. If the dental procedure called 'bit seating' has been performed -- 'bit seats' being a re-shaping of the anterior portions of the first upper and lower cheek teeth so as to round off their front edges -- then the bit will ride up the tongue, or if the tongue has already been retracted, then it will ride up the bars, and then it will continue, riding up into the "<"-shaped notch formed by the rounding off of the upper and lower first cheek teeth.
Bit seats, when correctly installed, are a great help to the racehorse, the 3-Day eventer, the steeplechaser or point-to-pointer, and the jumper, all of whom are often reefed on or hung on mercilessly. The racehorses are the worst off, because while the eventers and jumpers are usually somewhat educated, the racehorse often gets no chance to integrate what a bit is supposed to be all about and come to calmly accept it, and is thus the most prone to spend his working life trying to avoid having his tongue touch it or else trying to spit it out.
When the jockey 'water skis' and the bit rides up into the notch formed as the bit-seat, the cannons of the bit are lifted above the tongue. The horse which would, without the bit-seats, have tried to run with a retracted tongue -- and would therefore have had to wear a tongue-tie applied by the trainer which straps the tongue forward in the mouth -- can often go without the tongue-tie because without the weight of the bit on the tongue, he will of his own accord leave his tongue in the normal forward position in his mouth.
This illustrates two important points: (1) that wisdom, kindness, and the intention to educate must be the foundation of the plan when first introducing a young horse to wearing a bit; and (2) that pressure upon the tongue can bother a horse long before it actually hurts him. We will return to these points near the bottom of this post.
Returning to the general principle discovered by this group of students, again, you have found that when the snaffle bit is pulled parallel to the lips, it rides along the tongue. But you have also discovered that, to whatever degree the carriage of a horse's head may change from poked out to the front to tucked, to that same degree when the rider pulls on the reins, the pressure so exerted will bear downward upon the tongue, catching it between the bit's cannons and the crests of the bars.
You have also suggested, very correctly, that changing the rider's position from the saddle to the ground, or using devices such as a running martingale that alter the angle of the reins' pull, will make the snaffle bit bear more upon the tongue and bars.
So, now, let us go on to another level of thinking, and you may answer these questions:
(1) Pressure upon the tongue has the tendency to bother horses, but this tendency can be overcome through the first several sessions in which the horse is introduced to the bit, so that afterwards the horse is not afraid that the bit will hurt him, and so that he both mentally understands and emotionally accepts its presence in his mouth. What is the most important ATTITUDE you would have to have to succeed in educating a young horse about the bit? What specific techniques would you use to help assure a good result?
(2) Most people do not want their pleasure-riding horse (no matter the specific style or discipline) to go about with its nose poked to the front like a flat-track racer. Neither is this type of carriage very good for a riding horse's long-term soundness. We mostly want our pleasure-riding horses to raise the base of the neck, arch the neck, and carry the head more vertically. The degree of this may vary by breed or discipline, but it would always be a more rounded topline and a more vertical face than a racehorse. Given this, what is the most important technique (discussed here many times) for assuring that the amount of pressure needed to guide the horse remains at a minimum, no matter how fast or strenuous the work, and no matter how high the required degree of collection? -- Dr. Deb
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