ESI Q and A Forums Home
 Search       Members   Calendar   Help   Home 
Search by username
Not logged in - Login | Register 

Giraffe skeleton for comparative anatomy
 Moderated by: DrDeb  
 New Topic   Reply   Print 
AuthorPost
CarolineTwoPonies
Member
 

Joined: Sun Mar 15th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 67
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Jan 16th, 2011 08:35 am
 Quote  Reply 
Hello Dr.Bennett, I wont be able to post for a few more days but I finally got this giraffe skeleton downloaded from my phone. I thought it would be a good one to think about. The neck and head of the smaller one belong to a lama.

My only observation is I think the giraffe trunk, ribcage, pelvis is nicely put together. I was surprised by the thoracic and lumbar spine arch considering the neck is up.

Attachment: giraffe skeleton.jpg (Downloaded 284 times)

Last edited on Sun Jan 16th, 2011 08:38 am by CarolineTwoPonies

rockntree
Member
 

Joined: Sun Jan 24th, 2010
Location: Baraboo, Wisconsin USA
Posts: 7
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Jan 18th, 2011 09:10 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Caroline- thanks for sharing, this camel photo and giraffe got me thinking!

I have a question that has remained un answered for some time- and relates to this photo- if anyone had any more thoughts I'd be grateful for some input. 

One is that I have always wondered how AIR gets all the way down the giraffe's trachea into their lungs?  When I was a kid, I used to take a garden hose and jump into a pool to "scuba dive".  This never worked- the tube was too long, and my lungs too small to draw fresh air through that long tube and get it to my lungs.   Dr. Deb- do you have any insight on how giraffes manage this problem? 

And that got me thinking on another problem.  When horses are collected, it seems we have taken that windpipe and really "kinked it" on one end.  I have been told that when evaluating horses, it is preferable for a horse to have a "clean throatlatch" area- one where the neck meets the head without a lot of excess muscle, fat or tissue there, that would prevent breathing.  Is that the case?  How extreme does a horse need to be for this to affect their breathing? -- Or another way to ask it--- how hard do they need to be worked before their breathing is significantly affected?  Then again, when I tilt my own head back and forth, I don't seem to notice much of a difference when I'm breathing...

some wonderings aloud...

Noah

Ola
Member
 

Joined: Fri Mar 28th, 2008
Location: Poland
Posts: 20
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Jan 23rd, 2011 07:55 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Hi Noah,

I am definitely no expert on this subject, but after reading your post one thought immediataly jumped into my mind: why do you think we "kink" horse's windpipe while asking him for collection? When horse raises the base of its neck, the head falls into vertical position, but in fact this movement increases the distance between throatlatch and jawbone, the head stretches forward and up. If you can see a squashed soft tissue in this area, it means horse is ridden with fixed hands, or has a tension in his neck for any other reason.
I would also appreciate any of your thoughts on this!
Cheers, Ola

CarolineTwoPonies
Member
 

Joined: Sun Mar 15th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 67
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Jan 24th, 2011 06:03 am
 Quote  Reply 
Hello Noah and Ola, did you read Dr. Bennett's paper on Collection in the Knowledge Base? I think it will answer your questions.
http://www.equinestudies.org/true_collection_2008/true_collection_2008_pdf1.pdf

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3240
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Jan 24th, 2011 06:37 am
 Quote  Reply 
Caroline -- Ola already understands correctly. The question from Noah, however, belies the same misunderstanding I needed to disabuse the Pacific Northwest Endurance Riders' convention of this past weekend. Another speaker got up on the podium and conveyed the usual common misunderstanding, that when "contact" is "taken" -- meaning "when the rider pulls back on the reins enough to get the horse's face to become vertical", then that compresses the throatlatch and restricts the horse's ability to breathe.

First: Contact is not achieved by any action of the rider's hands. If you don't understand this statement, I suggest you start reading the "How Horses Work" series in The Eclectic Horseman magazine. Have them start your subscription with the first installment.

Second: as Ola correctly states, when the base of the horse's neck is raised, then the head will fall vertical yet leave the throatlatch area still wide open.

My problem with the other speaker is that she coaches, and in coaching continues to convey incorrect concepts -- the same mediocrity and commonness that we find everywhere. Really it is too bad, and it continues to make my work harder, as well as hurting however many horses. For it is absolutely and certainly true that if the best concept of "contact" and "collection" that the rider has is that it means "pulling back on the reins until the horse's face is vertical", then indeed, what will occur is that the rider will compress the upper part of the trachea and pharynx, and will indeed restrict the horse's ability to breathe. But, as I said, contact is not achieved by any action of the rider's hands; and collection means something far more global than whether the face is vertical.

Noah, you do need to read the papers that Caroline TwoPonies suggests. They will expand on this reply.

I also think that, in the story you tell about trying to breathe through the hose, that your big brother was probably standing on the hose to pull your leg and give you a hard time when you were trying to snorkel with it. So long as there is no kink in the hose and nothing clogging it up, no matter how long the tube was, there should have been no difficulty whatsoever in breathing through it. Your little diaphragm, if it was strong enough to suck air down your own trachea when you breathed, should also have been plenty strong enough to draw air through a twenty or thirty-foot garden hose.

Likewise for the giraffe: there is no difficulty whatsoever due solely to his having a long neck and consequent long trachea. The animal's diaphragm is what creates the vacuum that draws air down into the chest; it is the backward movement of the diaphragm that creates the vacuum within the chest cavity that draws air into the lungs. That is the arrangement in the human chest, the horse's chest, and in the giraffe's and all other terrestrial vertebrates. The giraffe's diaphragm is adequately strong for this task in the size of animal in which it exists. -- Dr. Deb

Horse Adventurer
Member
 

Joined: Tue Nov 30th, 2010
Location: Curlew, Washington USA
Posts: 8
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Jan 24th, 2011 11:08 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Hi Dr. Deb,

 

I read the True Collection Paper.  Thank you for taking the time to explain the anatomy.  I get it!

 

Where do I find how to apply it in riding?

 

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3240
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Jan 25th, 2011 03:25 am
 Quote  Reply 
Dear Noah -- what do you mean, 'where do I find how to apply it in riding'? This is not clear from the paper you say you've read? Hey -- maybe it is not. I thought it was, but maybe not.

So if you would be willing, would you tell me exactly what you don't know how to do, but would like to know how to do. What would be the first step to take, in your own mind?

Also, I would need some information, including how old you are, how old your horse is, what you do with him or would like to do, how many years you have been riding, and what style of riding you prefer. -- Dr. Deb

Horse Adventurer
Member
 

Joined: Tue Nov 30th, 2010
Location: Curlew, Washington USA
Posts: 8
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Jan 27th, 2011 01:29 am
 Quote  Reply 
Hi Dr. Deb, Looks like you were replying to my question.  Before I answer I am going to read over the True Collection paper again.  Thank you, be back soon!

rockntree
Member
 

Joined: Sun Jan 24th, 2010
Location: Baraboo, Wisconsin USA
Posts: 7
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Mar 2nd, 2011 02:47 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dr. Deb-

    You're right, I shouldn't think of it as kinking the trachea, I suppose I wrote my wonderings down quickly.  I was wondering on the old idea of "clean throatlatch for ease of breathing" and was wondering how much that really mattered.

As far as the hose, its not a problem of being able to draw the air through the hose at all.  You can draw air through a 30' hose, no problem.  The key is, that air isn't fresh.  You end up rebreathing air in that hose because it is "physiological dead space".  For a giraffe, they have that long hose, no oxygen transfer there.  I was looking at their rib cage, realizing that- jeez, it does not look like ther is is a heck of a lot of volume there, so are there any adapatations that make it so that they giraffe isn't rebreathing a lot of oxygen-poor air (the air left over from their last breath, still in their trachea)?


 Current time is 06:57 pm




Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez