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DarlingLil
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 Posted: Mon May 11th, 2015 01:52 am
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Maybe a track pasture? I'm about to do one myself.

JulietMacie
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 Posted: Mon May 11th, 2015 07:07 pm
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Hi Pauline and Darlin Lil -- yes, I'm in the process of making a track pasture, which I'm pretty excited about. The immediate problem is that the track will be grassy until it's eaten and beaten down to dirt, so there will be an unavoidable period of access to grass.

This is why Pauline's practical suggestions are so valuable. I'll continue to hand graze my mare until the move and up the dosage of Magnesium. Once she's back home, since I work from home I'll be able to do whatever's necessary throughout the day to manage her diet. I'll continue to post her progress.

thanks,
Juliet

Kuhaylan Heify
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 Posted: Sat May 16th, 2015 11:53 am
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Hope its not too late to ask about giving supplemental magnesium.. I've been hand grazing Sidekick for 20 minutes a day to prepare for the horses getting turned out on grass. As I understand it giving supplemental magnesium should help with his processing sugar. I plan to start with a tablespoon of magnesium dissolved in water to be poured over his beat pulp. Should I then increase the magnesium while watching his manure for looseness. Is there a certain limit to the magnesium, or should I continue adding a few flakes as long as the manure stays consistently solid looking?
best
Bruce Peek

Pauline Moore
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 Posted: Wed May 20th, 2015 04:24 am
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Hi Bruce
It would be good to start giving magnesium several weeks before the exposure to new spring grass as horses who have previously been deficient will need time to adapt to increasing levels of magnesium. Monitor manure consistency as a way to ensure magnesium is not overdosed; there is no need to keep increasing the amount if there are no deficiency signs. This is discussed in detail on the updated Magnesium article on my website:
http://www.gravelproofhoof.org/#!magnesium/c1dwe

I would like to emphasise that feeding any high-calcium items will drastically reduce or eliminate any benefit from the magnesium being fed - beet pulp is naturally high in calcium.

Pauline

Kuhaylan Heify
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 Posted: Wed May 20th, 2015 10:33 am
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So if the beet pulp needs to go what is a good feed source? I'd like to stay away from a lot of the commercial choices cuz it seems like you can smell the molasses in them when you open the bag..
best wishes
Bruce Peek

DrDeb
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 Posted: Wed May 20th, 2015 12:58 pm
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What kind of hay do you have access to, Bruce? In other words, what types of grasses are in the grass hay in your area?

Remember that horses only really are meant to eat two things: grass and water. Everything else we do or don't do is in reaction to this, in other words, to balance it or to make up for not having it.

Remember also that alfalfa, though like grass can be made into hay, is not grass. -- Dr. Deb

Kuhaylan Heify
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 Posted: Wed May 20th, 2015 09:43 pm
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Dear Dr. Deb: The hay is eastern Oregon orchard grass. My shoer/trimmer has years of experience in analyzing Oregon hay and says she has found high levels of iron and manganese in all Oregon hay- both eastern( on the dry side of the state) and western- here on the wet side of the state. This to me explains why sidekick showed a toxic level of manganese in his hair analysis test.. So since Pauline says the beat pulp has lots of calcium I'll switch to orchard grass hay pellets to use as a base for his chelation powder- to take away the high arsenic level, and for giving him his biotin, copper, zinc and other trace minerals that came back low on his hair test. The plan is to retest the hair again this October and see if the chelation has made a difference.
I've noticed in the hand grazing that sidekick goes after the grass, now at its most palatable- green and juicy- like a shark after a wounded swimmer. The shoer commented on his last trim three weeks ago that he was starting to show incipient fat deposits on his sides so we cut back on the beat pulp, but we'll switch to the orchard grass pellets today, with the magnesium solution poured over the top.
Oh also I've been working on getting him to lift the base of his neck, to avoid that breaking at the third vertebrae business that you mentioned at the anatomy clinic. Changing back to the loose ring French link snaffle seems to have helped with that as the loose ring has less poll pressure than the Baucher snaffle did.
Thanks and best wishes
Bruce Peek

DrDeb
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 Posted: Thu May 21st, 2015 12:09 pm
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Bruce, I hate to disappoint you, but I believe in the type of hair analysis that you've had done about as much as I believe that pigs can fly.

The following is a quote from the article in Wikipedia about "hair analysis":

 "Using the results [of hair analysis], as part of a proper examination or test protocol,practitioners screen for toxic exposure and heavy metal poisoning. Some advocates claim that they can also diagnose mineral deficiencies ....These uses are ...controversial, and the American Medical Association states, "The AMA opposes chemical analysis of the hair as a determinant of the need for medical therapy and supports informing the American public and appropriate governmental agencies of this unproven practice and its potential for health care fraud."  A recent review of scientific literature....highlighted analysis of metals/minerals in hair can be applied in large population studies for researching epidemiology and groups of chronically exposed populations, however any attempt to provide a diagnosis based on hair for an individual is not possible.

So, if I were you Bruce, I'd be inclined to not throw my money away in that direction any more, and to use whatever the results you say you got only as the broadest possible guide.

Further, even if the results of hair testing proved to be valid or in any way accurate for your individual horse, you're barking up the wrong tree in trying to "compensate" for any deficiencies or excesses you think you have. Bruce, listen to me please: all anybody can really ever do is give the horse as close as possible to what a horse is intended by nature to eat, and that is, quality grass or hay that consists of grasses and/or forbs that are nontoxic, and clean water.

None of this is to deny anything that Pauline has been advising us on. For example, her discovery (corroborated many times all over the world) that there's a good chance your water is too acid -- and therefore it is advisable to add soda bicarb -- is excellent advice. Why we can say this is that number one, it is easy to test the water to determine whether or not it is too acid, and the results of such tests are accurate. And number two, the soda bicarb "fix" is cheap and relatively practical and easy to do.

The giving of magnesium, chromium, sodium salt in the right amount, and to try to reduce or eliminate calcium in the form of beet pulp or alfalfa also often works to the horse's and the owner's benefit. If your horse has been diagnosed BY A VETERINARIAN as having metabolic syndrome, founder-prone, pre-diabetic, or has a known history of chronic hoof inflammation, chronic sore feet, chronic unsoundness, or repeated founder, THEN you have the evidence -- not hair testing! -- to tell you that you need to get the horse on the magnesium/chromium protocol.

On the other hand, if your horse can't keep a tail on, always looks like another horse has chewed off his tail, has dry shelly feet, the hoof color is off toward the blueish end of the spectrum, or his feet have the texture of driftwood -- THEN you have the evidence that you need that says that the horse is suffering from excessive selenium or manganese.

And again, if your horse is lethargic, gains weight easily, has a "greasy" feel to the skin and hair coat, and is showing onset of arthritis-like symptoms in all joints of his body before the age of 15, THEN you have the evidence to say that you may need to test for arsenic poisoning.

And when you have the clinical signs which I have outlined above, Bruce, then you go TO YOUR VETERINARIAN with the query, and you request whatever blood or tissue tests the veterinarian tells you are going to be diagnostic, and you be willing to pay for them.

Otherwise....let's just get about training the horse, OK? You keep him at the proper weight, you feed him quality hay and clean water, and that will be the end of it. You will remember, Bruce, that although I asked you for photographs of yourself riding your horse, I promised not to show those photos to anyone else and that would mean not posting them here and not making an analysis of your riding similar to the one you've seen us do here for Juliet Macie. I respect your desire for some privacy in this area.

Nonetheless, you will remember the basic outlines of what I told you at the time that I viewed the photos -- and that was two main things:

(1) Your horse is too small for you.

(2) You have many basic and serious deficiencies in your seat and balance that must be corrected before you can make further progress as a rider.

THESE and not "hair testing" and messing around with trying to micro-titrate your horse's diet are what you should be focusing on at this time, Bruce. You will find that if and when you actually become able to ride, all the other difficulties that you think are due to 'mineral imbalances' will no longer be part of the picture. -- Dr. Deb

Kuhaylan Heify
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 Posted: Thu May 21st, 2015 08:04 pm
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Ok so what is the next step? I presume taking lessons to fix the seat and balance issues, and then selling sidekick? The chelation and feeding supplements can be easily fixed.
Best wishes
Bruce Peek

DrDeb
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 Posted: Fri May 22nd, 2015 12:49 am
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Yes, Bruce, that would be a good plan -- to sell Sidekick and obtain another animal that is more suitable for you -- in terms of size, in terms of the horse's temperament, and in terms of your level of ability.

 Let us address each of these three areas. Size: you are an easy six-foot-two with proportionally very long legs, while your horse is barely 14 hands as would be typical of an Arabian. His smallness under you would ULTIMATELY not make it impossible for you to ride him well -- the greatest Arabian rider/trainer that I know of, Gene Lacroix, was also a fairly tall man although not as tall as you are, Bruce. But Gene Lacroix was a "horseback genius", the son of a professional horse breeder and trainer, had ridden under best tutelage since childhood, and had exceptional balance, feel, and timing which you, Bruce, simply cannot bring to your horse's benefit at this time. So what I am saying here is that it might, someday, be possible for you to find your balance and seat upon Sidekick, it is not possible at the present time. You need to find a bigger horse that can "absorb" your long arms and legs, so to speak.

The second point is temperament. Sidekick is also typical in having the active-reactive temperament -- but you don't have the feel or the timing to assist him when he gets in trouble. Not only does he get himself into trouble every single time you ride him or attempt to do any kind of work on him, YOU get him into trouble because you simply don't have the experience or the insight to prevent that from happening. I know, Bruce, that you've been good enough to try to participate with me, Harry, Buck, and others whom we recommend, but you are the sort of student who needs one-on-one instruction for a long time. The reason for this is your own mentality and temperament, which causes you frequently to misunderstand instructions and prevents you from gaining insight as to the true import and purpose of many of the training exercises. Has it ever seemed to you that you're being told "random things" by me or other instructors, like as if one exercise with the horse does not really relate to any of the other exercises that had previously been suggested? I ask because this is what it looks to me like you're experiencing -- it's all just a loose bag of marbles, all these separate things, with nothing fitting with or leading to anything else. "Insight" is the thing that suddenly causes all the marbles to fit together into, for example, a DNA spiral -- in other words, into a PATTERN.

The third point is your level of ability. As I've indicated, you have serious issues with balance. Some people who want to learn to ride do have this problem. You begin addressing it not on horseback at all, but by work with a qualified physical therapist. You go to her and you tell her what I've told you, and you ask her to work with you on a balance board or a "ball board", and whatever other tricks she may have up her sleeve for increasing balance and coordination in older adults. This may involve teaching you to play "catch" or kick a soccer ball into a target net -- that's where I would start with you, as well as on the balance board, if it were me, but you'll have to find a therapist in your area.

The other thing I'd very strongly suggest to you, Bruce, is that you go enroll in a Tai Chi class. Try to find an instructor who does not view Tai Chi as a way to warm up for fighting, but just as a class in balanced movement. I'm a Tai Chi fan myself. If you go to your local Senior Center and inquire, you'll find a class you can sign up for probably right there, and and I can 100% guarantee that will help you.

Now, once you've got these two areas lined up, it will be time for you to go find a riding instructor in your area who offers lessons for adult beginners AND who has a horse big enough for you to ride. She will put you on a big, quiet old galoot, which is just exactly what you need. She'll spend a lesson or two assessing your physical problems, and then she may opt to start longeing you a-horseback in order to develop a proper seat. When you are mounted upon a horse of sufficient size, and the reins are taken away from you, then will come the first opportunity for you to get over the habit of hunching forward. You will also find out what it means to SIT DOWN on your seatbones, and to get your legs lying in the proper way gently against the sides of the horse, extending downward to their full length. Your current too-small horse induces you, by contrast, to hunch, lean forward, only half sit, and scrunch your legs up in order to keep your calves on him.

The last point is when do you go shopping for your next horse? My answer to that would be -- six years from now. You don't need to own a horse, Bruce, unless you just want to keep Sidekick around as a pet, so you've got a warm furry beast to pet, feed, nurse, and mess with. But Sidekick would be much happier with a more skillful and insightful owner -- and a smaller-sized person. You realize he can't balance very well either with your great tall body up there above him! Try to visualize some happy teenager with him instead.

There is no human being, Bruce, on Earth -- at any time, now, in the past, or in the future, who ever learns to ride well in less than six years. So the six year period I'm suggesting to you is no different than anybody else. I'm telling you that now is the time in which you may BEGIN -- getting it right this time, beginning from the true base, which involves fixing basic problems, such as balance, seat, timing, coordination, and insight -- before going on to try something more difficult, like real work or performance. At the end of the six years' work with one or more qualified riding instructors, gaining experience on an array of horses that are the right size and temperament for you, you will develop an eye and a taste for the sort of horse that can help you do what you want to do, and at that time you will be able to walk out and buy that sort of horse -- and be happy and satisfied with that choice. -- Dr. Deb

 

Kuhaylan Heify
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 Posted: Fri May 22nd, 2015 11:06 am
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OK
best wishes
Bruce Peek

JulietMacie
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 Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2015 03:32 am
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Behold! The red line is gone! I only hope it stays that way once she starts eating more grass.

gratefully,
Juliet

Attachment: fore_feet.jpg (Downloaded 156 times)

Kuhaylan Heify
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 Posted: Fri Jun 12th, 2015 11:38 am
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Dr. Deb you have quite the eye for conformation- but we knew that- The physical Therapist says my left hip is higher than my right hip causing crookedness, and I have a Kyphotic curve in my upper back..Am going to the P.T. too-morrow for our first session, She will no doubt have a list of core, shoulder and spine stuff for me to do.
best wishes
Bruce Peek

JTB
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 Posted: Wed Oct 23rd, 2019 10:51 pm
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Bump so Redmare can find this :-)


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