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RobVSG
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Posted: Fri Sep 25th, 2009 09:55 pm |
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Dr Deb, how insightful.
When I first brought her home a little over a year ago, she did have a bad habit of rearing and would not back at all. Now I understand the connection. She has not offered to rear at all in a long time, but I often remind myself that it is there.
Also the vet that looked at her last week said she needed some attention to her teeth but wasn't too concerned about it for now. After your comments I am now going to get her teeth fixed right away.
On a lead line and in the round pen she does without a doubt "flee" forward. She will return to me very willingly but will flee again as soon as I point her forward again.
Well, back to the drawing board.
Thanks,
Rob
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Obie
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Posted: Sat Sep 26th, 2009 04:41 pm |
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Hello Rob,
I don't know if you have heard of the theory of Osteopath. I think you might find it very insightful if you look up Equine Osteopath USA. There is is a great school in Tx that trains in Equine Osteopath. They first have to have DVM,PT. or already be a human D.O. before they can enroll in this 2 yr school. They have more and more practitioners graduating and then relocating around the U.S. You might find someone in your area . Please note that they have recently offered a course for those folks that have a human/equine massage license. So of course you would want to ask about their qualifications. With Osteopath there is a correlation between the horses vertabrae and the internal structures. When a certain vertabra is blocked that can have an effect on that corresponding internal organ.
I hope this info helps ,
Linda D
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RobVSG
Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 27th, 2009 04:15 am |
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Thanks Linda, I'll definitely google it.
I believe wholeheartedly in Dr Deb's practice of 'perjustice' so I wonder if Equine Osteopath is not just another path to the same thing???
Me and my wife have been seeing a 'chiropractic neurologist' for a while now. I have discussed horsemanship with the Dr. He's not a horseman but he can see the similarities in the stimuli. The main difference is that we do everything right and left with the horse, but my chiropractic neurologist Dr is focusing on only one side of me (for now). When I go in I tell him "I'm here for my 'perjustice'"and he laughs.
Thanks,
Rob
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Obie
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Posted: Tue Sep 29th, 2009 02:39 am |
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| Yeh, I know what you mean about the stimuli. I think the one thing in common with both is that Form Governs Function. The combination of Osteopath and Dr. Deb has been a great learning tool to me!
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RobVSG
Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 7th, 2009 05:03 am |
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Dr Deb. I had her teeth done and she indeed had hooks in the front molars. I was surprised because another reputable vet did them a year ago,,,, but I guess the teeth can erupt quite a bit in a year. Still, it was as if the top front molars were sloped for a bit seat and the bottom ones were "hooked" or sloped the wrong way for a bit seat.
It made a noticeable difference in the way she deals with the bit and isn't so prone to rush now. But she is still having good days and bad days with the front fetlocks.
The vet looked at the front fetlocks again to follow up. He had injected only the left one a couple of weeks ago as well as had her on oral firocoxib for 10 days. He said both appear better although the right one has more puffiness now. The vet is familiar with Dr Deb and he said continue with what I'm doing.
I read the Equus Magazine article online and it goes right along with what the vet was telling me. Also looked up a good bit of other info.
I still have a couple questions though;
1) Are supplements (hyaluronic, MSM, etc...) worth anything???
2) Will cold water therapy help?? If so, should it come before or after a ride???
Believe me I'm not looking for ways to spend money, it's just that this mare is only 9 years old and I would like to help her return to being as sound as is possible for her. If it means running a cold water hose on her legs I can swing that. I don't intend to show or race her. I have other horses to ride the trails. I just want to do what's best for her.
Thanks,
Rob
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DrDeb
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Posted: Wed Oct 7th, 2009 07:16 am |
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Rob, cold-hosing has one major benefit: it makes the owner feel like he's doing something. Beyond that....zippo.
Ice is another matter. You can talk to your vet about the safe way to use ice boots. However, this late in the process they may not be of any benefit.
I would never permit the veterinarian to inject any joint for any reason whatsoever, with anything. This is because, no matter how careful the practitioner thinks he's being, shoving the needle into the joint traumatizes the joint. Injecting joints is a stopgap method that has zero chance of curing the horse. Zero. Read the literature that details results of LONG TERM follow-up -- some vets don't read this literature but all of them ought to. You can hold a horse together with injections; it's a way of squeezing another roping run, another go in the show ring, or another year out of them. But it is not a cure and some studies have shown that injections actually shorten the useful lifespan of the horse over what it would have been if no injections had been done.
Instead, have your vet be looking into the use of injectable glucosamine hydrochloride. NOT the sulfate form: that produces allergic reactions, sometimes severe. I used human-grade liquid obtained by my vet from the pharmacy; it was not mixed with other substances, and along with glucosamine sulfate, you should also avoid chondroitin. MSM can be OK, and many of the commercial products contain this, but you probably do not need it. It is much cheaper to use the human-grade liquid than the commercial mixture (about one-fifth the cost). And it's about one-fiftieth the cost of trying to help the horse by feeding it the glucosamine, because glucosamine is relatively indigestible and is not well absorbed from the gut. Injection may therefore LOOK like more money but really you are saving, if you want to get any actual effect on the horse.
You inject the horse with the liquid IM (intra-muscularly). If your vet would like to write to me by private EMail, I will tell him the name of the vet with whom I worked when my Painty Horse got to be past 25 years old and needed the glucosamine for arthritis and mild ringbone. It gave him complete relief, and I was riding him up until two days before he died at age 29. My vet will then tell your vet what the exact treatment protocol is, i.e. dosages and such, and where to get the stuff.
In general, the protocol is you load the horse up the first month -- numerous injections repeated every few days. Then you maintain him with one injection per month thereafter. You assess him after one month, to see whether the treatment is taking effect; if it is, then after one year you re-assess and see if he requires another loading dose. Painty never needed to be re-loaded, but some horses do.
This will help you out, Rob, but do try to get your vet off of doing any more injections into joints. -- Dr. Deb
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LadyTrojans01
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 07:01 am |
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RobVSG wrote: Oh! One more detail I keep forgetting to mention.
A little over a week ago I had her in cross-ties doing her feet. She never pulls back and doesn't spook easily (or I wouldn't cross-tie her in the first place), but my 7 year old son did something crazy and she pulled back. The left tie strap broke and the snap punctured the side of her muzzle. The next morning the area about the diameter of a golf ball was swollen. I just so happened to be taking her and a few other horses that morning to get their shots and yearly coggins report. The vet noticed the swollen spot so I told her what happened so she gave her a shot of bute. I rode her that evening while still on the bute. SHE WAS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT HORSE. Didn't rush, would stand still, trotted out fine, we even slow gaited and fast gaited juuust a little (she got winded very quick and I didn't want to push it). A couple of days later she was back to "normal". We stayed at a walk.
Maybe I'm miss reading that, but that seems to indicate the bute was masking some pain that is usually there.
Thanks,
Rob
What??? You had her in cross-ties doing her feet??? I can't get what you are trying to say. Can you give the reason why she never pulls back and doesn't spook easily but my 7 year old son did something crazy and she pulled back? I just want to know every detail of it. Can you?
Last edited on Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:21 am by DrDeb
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DrDeb
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:24 am |
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Lady T. -- would you be kind enough to state why you are making this query. What is it that Rob has not already made clear? I hope it was not your intention to cast blame or to come down on someone else with a judgement from yourself. What's done is done, and Rob learned several things by the experience.
How about, instead of asking Rob to write back to explain himself further, you tell us a story about how you do your horse's feet, or how you set it up so that accidents are less likely to happen. Thanks for the courtesy. -- Dr. Deb
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LadyTrojans01
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:31 am |
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It's not my intention to judge him. All I want is to know more details about on what is done so that I can help him fully.
Last edited on Sat Nov 7th, 2009 08:32 am by LadyTrojans01
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DrDeb
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 04:54 pm |
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Lady T., that's great. Now how about you telling us a story about you and your horses, so that we can know on what basis you might be qualified to help Rob.
You see, one of the rules that I teach my classes is this, Lady T.: that the best student in the class, in my estimation, is not the person who knows the most....not the person who can answer quickest....not even the person with the most experience. Rather, the best student in the class is the person who is the most help to all the other people in the class.
Now, if you would take a little time to look through the many threads that are in this Forum, you will find that there are a number of students who regularly help the others. And they do this, not by TELLING us that they are qualified, but by SHOWING us that they are. In other words: they give examples of times they have worked with a horse and what they did and how they learned by that; they show photographs of themselves working with their horses. And the biggest thing they do is they ASK QUESTIONS -- they will tell a story and then say, 'but this is the part that I didn't understand' or 'this is the part that surprised me.' This gives other people who read here the opportunity to chime in helpfully.
See if you can figure out a way to blend in to this philosophy and attitude, Lady T., and I think you'll find you have a lot better experience here.
Thanks for the courtesy. -- Dr. Deb
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RobVSG
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Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 06:23 pm |
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Thanks Dr Deb.
I don't know who Lady T is or why I should need her help but her coming out of left field on this has got me curios.
So if I may.....
Lady T do you wish to help me with my horsemanship or my child rearing???? I've had this mare almost a year and a half and she has never pulled back in a halter until this incident. My son (just turned 8) rides with me, can clean out the feet of his own mare, can untrack her, mounts his mare on the circus drum in hand or from her back, etc. I could go on about his horsemanship. But he is a YOUNG BOY.
The incedent about which you inquire was interesting to me. It's interesting how things work out sometimes. A boy just being a boy causes a horse to react like a horse, causing a MINOR injury to said horse the very day before her going to the vet for annual shots. Vet perscribes a shot of bute for the MINOR injury. Later that day, the horse undersaddle shows ALL the progress of 3 months of "straightening" arena riding as if over night. Makes me go HMMMM!?!?!? I'd been suspecting her problem to bein her lungs because of the way she was breathing,,, but know I definitly want a lameness exam. Vet said she was recovering from sesonal allergies (the breathing) but found her problem from all along in her fetlocks. Now the horse is on the road to recovery thanks to a boy "acting crazy".
The day my mare pulled back I'm not really sure what he did. I heard a very loud thud like 2 boards smacking together, my reaction was to JUMP QUICKLY out from under the horse (I had her front left hoof between my knees) I think MY action is what actually made her pull back. Meanwhile my son was landed on his butt and rocks and sand had flown from his direction. I don't know if he fell trying to catapult rocks or really just what he did. I never asked him to explain what he did because whatever the details of what he did was besides the point. He was reprimanded for "acting crazy" around the horses. period. I know better than to suddenly drop a horses foot and get spooked myself, but for the split second before I really knew what the thud was, I thought getting out would be better than to hold on to a horse leg if the barn roof was coming down!!!
My son knows better, but "boys will be boys." The mare knows better but she reacted to the whole situation as any horse would. Did I learn a lesson? Maybe si maybe no. I use a breakaway (not a quick release but a 70lbs breakaway) on the ties now. But my son still helps me everyday with my horses (and he learns new lessons everyday) because I refuse to raise a videogame playing couch potato with no sense of responsibility.
Lady T, my name is Robert Vazquez. I don't know you from Adam but there's what you asked for. If I am supposed to know you, identify yourself because it really struck me as odd that of all the posts and topics on this message board, why did you make your only 2 comments on this thread,,, and on such an off tangent of what this thread is about???? Which is that my mare came to me a year and a half ago with arthritis and tendinitis in both front fetlocks (which had me puzzled for some time) but now the problem is identified and she is getting happier and my vet is checking into a treatment suggested by Dr Deb.
I answered your question, now answer the ones asked by Dr Deb and myself,
1) let's hear a story about you doing your horses feet
2) who are you
Last edited on Sat Nov 7th, 2009 06:40 pm by RobVSG
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Jacquie
Member
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Posted: Sun Nov 8th, 2009 07:55 pm |
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Hi Rob
I used to work at a vets as a nurse there, as I could not make enough money for my horses keep as an artist alone! while I worked there i saw a great many animals with various ailments. It was a large and small animal practice.
Very often animals iRTA, sometimes a long standing age related issue or maybe an old injury. The vets there impressed on me that even when you have found the seeming root of the problem as presented, that the animal should be still thoroughly investigated further, just in case there was more than one issue causing the problem being presented. One time a large dog came in with an obvious lameness, and an obvious open wound, but the root of the pain proved to be the more coming from a very deep bite wound which was not at all obvious on first inspection.
This could be the case with your mare here, with more than one problem contributing to the overall issues she has. It may not be 'either/or'- it may be both!
Jacquie
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RobVSG
Member
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Posted: Mon Nov 9th, 2009 12:52 am |
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Thanks Jacquie for your experiences. That is so true.
The vet did check her out pretty good. I know a little of her history and the vet felt pretty sure we are taking care of getting her out of the scenario that likely caused her condition. As he looked at the x-rays, he agreed the damage was consistent with being shod with very long toes and being racked out hard. I know where she came from they do shoe 'em long in the front (although "keg" shod) and at least 1 (if not more) of her 6 previous owners would push her hard at speed for great distances. And being bred in between too. That's probably all I better say about her history. What counts is she's not being sped on long toes anymore and she is making progress with her attitude now. She's happy.
She is the type of mare that can sit in the pasture for a year and then come out the first day under saddle again in the truest 4-beat 20+mph rack you've ever seen. But just because she's capable of that doesn't mean that it is good for her. She foaled last in May this year and since I started riding her in June we have pretty much only done the type of work that I've been learning from Dr Deb. She's doing much better.
Thanks,
Rob
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DrDeb
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Posted: Mon Nov 9th, 2009 05:27 am |
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Rob, your vet did by the way EMail me to get the contact information for the veterinarian who can give the prescription and protocol for the IM glucosamine injections, so that part is in process too.
And yeah, getting rid of the long toes/underslung heels is going to help her a ton too. Cheers -- Dr. Deb
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RobVSG
Member
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Posted: Mon Nov 9th, 2009 01:43 pm |
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Yes ma'am, and I meant to thank you again for that. I don't mean to get my hopes up too much, but I really think (and my vet thinks) it's going to help my mare out alot. I am also preparing myself mentally to always consider the mare's condition even when she appears to be feeling better and so not to over do it with her. She is a little powerhouse.
The vet that contacted you is not the one who diagnosed and took the x-rays though. The vet that diagnosed her is a very competent middle aged man who spent several years on STB farm in Kentucky caring for MANY head including Niatross. He has MUCH experience and I'm very grateful for his help. But he is over an hour away and hard to contact/ consult with on things that get out of his standard protocol. He is VERY busy tending to beaucoup competitive QH's and show cows. I am to report back back to him in about 6 months for new x-rays.
The young lady ho is working with me, checking into the gluco injections is our new local horse vet. For years we have been lacking a good horse vet in our small town area. She just came from a big TB farm in Florida and so far I've been really impressed with her knowledge, reasonableness, and willingness to explore new things. This girl just seems wise beyond her years to me, but also is easier to contact directly for consultation.
I hope to ride this mare at the upcoming clinic in TX but it just depends on how she seems to be doing when that time comes. The fetlock problem aside, she is my best horse. If I think she won't be able to handle it I'll be bringing a full STB mare who is almost as good and totally sound.
Can't wait to see you then Dr Deb.
Thanks,
Rob
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