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DrDeb
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Dear People -- I am working on a feature piece for the new conformation column in Equus Magazine. This will be the 3rd installment in the series, and the topic is "effects of increasing size on performance capability and soundness potential."

I would like to request that anyone willing to help out, post here the following five things:

(1) Your horse's age, breed, and sex

(2) The circumference of one of his front legs, taken by wrapping a tape measure around his cannon bone at the point where the bone + tendon has the smallest circumference (generally just below the level of the knee). To take this measurement accurately, snug the tape up enough to flatten the hairs but not so tight that you cut into the skin. You may record the circumference in either inches or cm.

(3) The width of the foot. To take this measurement, the horse must be barefoot. Look and see which of his front feet is the larger one, and pick that foot up as the one you are going to measure. Lay a ruler across the foot and slide it from the toe backwards toward the heel until you get to the point where the foot is the widest. If your horse's foot is "basically" circular, this will be an acceptably accurate measurement. If, however, your horse has a diamond-shaped front foot (which will be because he has perceptible separations and flares in the quarters), then please measure ONLY the sole and I will estimate the undistorted width from that. Please state when sending this datum in whether it is a "sole only" measurement or a measurement "from wall to wall".

(4) Your best guesstimate of your horse's weight. Some folks will know this from having actually weighed their horse; some will have an estimate made by using a weight tape. Please state when you record this datum whether it is by weighing, by weight tape, or by best guesstimate.

(5) Has the horse had recurring or chronic problems staying sound? Does he need to wear shoes, foam pads, or boots, or foam-lined boots in order to remain working sound?


Here is a sample of the sort of transmission that will help me the most:

(1) Hanoverian gelding, 9 years old.

(2) B-T circumference = 9.5 inches

(3) Forefoot 6 inches across, this is the full width from wall to wall

(4) 1480 lbs. by weight tape

(5) He would not be working sound without custom-made horseshoes.

I am interested in getting this information on all breeds and sizes of horse. Please note however, the horse must be at least four years old.

The data is needed as soon as you can send it -- with my grateful thanks ahead of time -- Dr. Deb

AdamTill
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(1) Icelandic gelding, 6 yrs old.

(2) B-T circumference =  7 3/8 inches

(3)


Soles are the same size, but because I think he tends to lean right he gets a bit more flare on that foot. Measurements were done off the hoof rather than off the photos, and he's about due for a trim.

(4) Was 1050 lbs. by free roadside truck scale of dubious accuracy the day I brought him home. (79" cir behind girth, 66" body length). Has lost about 50 lbs since, about 100lbs to go. Somewhere around 900-950 would be healthy, I think.

(5) Hasn't ever been lame, to my knowledge (knocking on wood). Never worn shoes.

Tammy 2
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1) 7 years old, Clyde/TB Cross (both parents pure bred), gelding

2) B-T circum = 9.5 inches

3) 6 3/4" - forefoot measured wall to wall

4) 1250 lbs - measured by weight tape

5) Horse is sound - never been shod

Tutora
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Here are my horses' measurements:

1) 8yrs, Lusitano mare 

2)10 yrs., Tenn. Walker/Paint gelding

Both 1  & 2 are similar- 4 7/8" hoof width, 7 3/4" bone, 900 lbs. by weight tape; the mare is a hair lighter in bone and hoof size than the above sizes, and the gelding is a hair over the above sizes. Both are  barefoot, and light, graceful movers. They probably border on being light-boned, but they've been sound.

3) 8 yrs., Andalusian/ QH/Percheron mare, owned 4 yrs.---5 1/4" hoof width, 8" bone, 1020 lbs., same height as above horses, but stockier. She moves with a lot of suspension and big gaits, though she's no more than 15 hands. She plays hard, in a flashy Iberian manner that worries me at times because she's a heavier horse, but she comes back to earth like a big cat and stays sound.                                 

4) 6 yrs., Andalusian/Percheron gelding, owned 4 yrs.---6 1/4" hoof, 9'' bone, 1200 lbs....a 16 hand moving couch; there's little suspension to his trot, but his canter is Andalusian-like. I've had a few stone bruise problems with him; sound otherwise.

All these guys have been recently trimmed; hoof measurements are wall to wall with no flares. Sorry if the added info is too much--I wanted to describe how they use what they have in bone and hoof size.

Jeannie
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1. Belgium Draft/TB cross, gelding,18years
2. B-T circumference= 101/2inches
3. 63/4 inches -forefoot measured wall to wall
4. 1600 lbs. - weight tape
5. sound, barefoot 3 years

Brenton Ross Matthews
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First horse

(1)Lucre ---QH Stockhorse TB gelding 8 years old

 (2) B-T Circumference = 9 inches

 (3) 5.25 in across full width wall to wall

 (4)Estimate 1200 lb.  but a long time since I have checked

 (5) No problems staying sound but is shod as walls of hoof at sides and heels is much narrower than front and I consider would wear down much quicker than toes lowering the angles

Second horse-----

(1) Chyna---- QH Stockhorse mare 10 years

 (2) B-T circumference = 8.5 inches

(3) 5.25 inches across full width wall to wall

(4)Estimate 950 lb

 (5) No problems staying sound but is shod

Third horse

(1) Scooter ---QH Stockhorse gelding 15 years old

(2)B-T circumference= 9.25 inches

 (3) 5.75 inches full width wall to wall

(4) estimate 1200 lbs

 (5) no problems staying sound but barefoot at the moment when only in light work.  Only shod when in hard work

Dr Deb ,do you want the info on my other horses as well?

  Brenton

thegirlwholoveshorses
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1.)  Quarter horse mare, 7 years old

2.)  B-T circumfrence = 7.5 inches

3.)  Forefoot 4 3/4" across (full wall- to - wall measurement)

4.)  990 lbs by weight tape

5.)  No chronic or recurring soundness problems.  She is sound barefoot.

Last edited on Sun Jul 5th, 2009 01:43 am by thegirlwholoveshorses

Heidi
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1.  18 yr old standardbred gelding

2.  B-T  9.75"

3. Hoof 6"

4.  1300lbs,  weight  tape

5.  Sound barefoot

DrDeb
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Oh, hey, this is really turning out great, people. And no! I don't need Brenton or anybody else to do more than you've already done. BUT it would be great to hear from even more of you. I'd like to get a sample of at least 50 different horses....please tell your friends & neighbors!! The payback for them is that I am tabulating all the data, then converting it into easy-to-read graphs, which will be printed in Equus Magazine but I will also post them (and some other graphs that are going to go with this article) here.

What you can do with these graphs is use them to do things like see whether your horse has as much "bone" for his weight as other horses....see whether horses of one breed or another tend to have more (or less) bone....and even predict your horse's weight based on his shoe size (more convenient than having to go weigh him).

Thanks very much again, everybody -- I'll be looking for more posts in the next few days. Great activity for the 4th-of-July weekend. Hope all of you in the U.S. enjoyed the fireworks & the picnic! -- Dr. Deb

Jacquie
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three of  my four horses are shod as I have to do a load of road work here in UK. Can I measure the soles  of feet inside the shoe or is this not going to be accurate enough for what you want?

Jacquie

DrDeb
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Jacquie, what I need to know is the wall-to-wall width of the foot. Of course with a properly-fitted shoe on, if you measured the shoe it would be wider than that. However, if you think you can get the "barefoot" width to within 1/8th inch without taking the shoe off, then certainly go ahead and measure -- just be sure to tell us that this is what you did when you report the data. If you have one barefoot horse, even that would be helpful. Thanks for helping out!! -- Dr. Deb

nejc
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1. Slovenian troter, gelding, 9 years
2. B-T circumference= 19,2 cm
3. 15 cm -forefoot measured wall to wall
4. 520 kg - weight (girth length 188 cm)
5. sound, barefoot 9 months

cdodgen
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1) TWH mare, 15 yrs

(2) B-T circumference = 7 inches

(3) Forefoot 4 1/2 inches

(4) 925 lbs. by weight tape

(5) Sound barefoot under saddle over rocky terrain

 

1) Saddlebred/QH cross mare, 6 yrs

2) B-T circumference = 7.5 inches

3) Forefoot 4 3/4

4) 995 by weight tape

5) Sound barefoot over rocky terrain

Last edited on Sun Jul 5th, 2009 09:48 pm by cdodgen

Pauline Moore
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Horse A:
1)  TB gelding, 18 yrs old
2)  B-T circ. = 9 inches
3)  Wall to wall forefoot = 4-3/4 inches
4)  1280 lbs best guess by vet accustomed to using scales
5)  Shod all feet until age 11, brittle, weak hoof wall, very sore without shoes even on soft ground.  Highly prone to laminitis.  Cushings disease for past 3 years.  Barefoot for last 7 years.   When dietary sugars are adequately managed, hoofwall is strong with no separation and he can trot easily on sharp stones without boots or any other form of protection; when diet is not properly controlled he gets wall separation and is tender on soft ground.


Horse B:
1)  Andalusian stallion, 11 yrs old
2)  B-T circ. = 8-1/2 inches
3)  Wall to wall forefoot = 4-7/8 inches
4)  1200 lbs best guess by vet accustomed to using scales
5)  Never shod, sound on all terrain


Horse C:
1)  Andalusian stallion, 5 years old
2)  B-T circ. = 8-3/4 inches
3)  Wall to wall forefoot = 5-1/8 inches
4)  1320 lbs best guess by vet accustomed to using scales
5)  Never shod, sound on all terrain.

minimitts
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Horse #1

1~ Arab gelding 7 yo

2~ circumference 8 in

3~ width of foot 5 in, wall to wall, no flare

4~ weight 1050, by scale

5~ not a lame step, never shod, goes everywhere barefoot

Horse #2

1~ Connemara/Trakehner gelding 8yo

2~ circumference 8 in

3~ width of foot 5-1/4in, wall to wall, no flare

4~ weight 1125 by tape

5~ had soft tissue injury to right stifle, off for 9 mo (and the reason I was *given* this stellar horse!), sound as a bell after rest period. Never shod, goes everywhere barefoot

Horse #3

1~ 7/8 Andalusian, 1/8 Percheron gelding 9 yo

2~ circumference 9in

3~ width of foot 6-1/4in, wall to wall, no flare

4~ weight 1300 by tape

5~ totally sound, never shod, goes anywhere barefoot

 

lilly
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1.  Anglo Arabian (3/4 Thoroughbred), 13 years old, Mare.
2.  B - T circumference  8 5/8inch.
3.  4 3/4inch wall to wall.
4.  Guestimated weight 480 - 500kg
5.  Never been shod.  Always sound.


1.  Shetland pony x minature horse, 7 years old, Mare.
2.  B - T circumference  5 3/4inches.
3.  3 1/8inch wall to wall.
4.  Guestimated weight 220kg.
5.  Never been shod.  Sound.

Kat
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24 yo Arabian gelding

Bone 7.25 in

Hoof 4.75 in.

Wt.by tape 875 lbs

Barefoot and sound

 

10 yo Arabian gelding

Bone 8 in

Hoof 5 in.

Wt. by tape 1050

Barefoot and sound

 

5yo Arabian mare

Bone 7.25 in

Hoof 4.75 in

Wt. by tape 875

Barefoot and sound

mares tales
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6 yr. old mare........ out of a cheval/percheron dam by a tb stallion.

Cannon bone (below knee cir.) ....9 inches

Width of front foot wall to wall....6.5 inches

Height........15.2 h. 1/2 inch

Weight........1095 lbs. (weight tape)

Horse is barefoot and sound.

 

LynnF
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10 year old Arabian gelding

Bone 7 3/4"

Hoof  5"  wall to wall on all hoof measurements

weight - 800 estimated

barefoot and sound

 

20 year old half Arab/half QH mare

Bone 8 "

Hoof 5"

weight 1000 estimated

barefoot and sound

 

7 year old QH mare

Bone 7"

Hoof 4 3/4"

weight 750 estimated

barefoot and sound

 

26 year old Arabian gelding

Bone 9"

Hoof 5 "

weight 960 - weighed at the vet

barefoot and sound

Last edited on Tue Jul 7th, 2009 11:27 pm by LynnF

DrDeb
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Folks, I just wanted to throw in another word of encouragement here. I've been tabulating and plotting the data you've sent in -- MOST valuable and enlightening. I have on hand a comparison sample that comprises over 5,000 horses measured from the 19th century onward -- so one of the very most exciting things about this is you will shortly have the opportunity to compare and see how your own horses stack up against the world standard sample.

At this point, I particularly need:

Warmbloods, any registry, size, type, or weight

Any horse weighing over 1400 lbs.

Horses weighing less than 900 lbs.

In other words -- the mid-range of our Forum sample is pretty numerous, but we're thin on the big and small ends, so if you have either ponies or big WB's or even bigger draft or draft-cross horses in your neighborhood, your help in trotting out to measure them would be very highly appreciated.

Thanks to all for all you have done already, too! -- Dr. Deb

Joe
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26 year old Arabian gelding

14-3+ tall

7 3/8s bone

4 3/4 foot

Weighs in the neighborhood of 700 to 750 lbs by vet guess

Unshod most of the time

Sound and active on both soft and hard surfaces though tender over crushed rock and stones.  Some issues with vet-diagnosed arthritis.

Joe

GoldPony
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11 yo Haflinger mare

Ht. 14.2

8" bone

Wt. 875 estimated

4.75" hoof shod - Sound

Just changed to a certified NB farrier to correct flares and imbalances caused by previous bad work. She appeared sound barefoot but was hard to straighten and very braced. Amazing changes are taking place, she is MUCH more willing, happier and calmer- like a big exhale! Of course there are still old defensive habits to correct, but I feel like it is possible now after a year and a half of work (she was a driving horse that I started under saddle at the age of 10).

Emma
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1) Moose: 8 yr old 1/8 Percheron x TB gelding
2) B - T circumference: 23cm
3) Hoof width: 14cm
4) Weight (with tape): 550kg
5) Sound. Unshod and in light work. Has previously needed shoes when in heavier work.
 
1) Chloe: 21 yr old ¼ Percheron x TB mare
2) B - T circumference: 23 cm
3) Hoof width: 14.5cm
4) Weight (with tape): 550kg
5) Unsound without front shoes or boots in her rocky paddock. Retired due to reoccuring lamness in stifle.

 
1) Nicholas: 20 yr old TB gelding
2) B - T circumference: 21 cm
3) Hoof width: 12.5
4) Weight (with tape): 450kg
5) Shod most of his life – has contracted and under run heals. Currently sound without shoes in light work over soft going. Would need shoes or boots if ridden over rough ground.
 
1) Ramsey: ~20 yr old, pony (probably welsh) gelding
2) B - T circumference: 18 cm
3) Hoof width: 11cm
4) Weight (with tape): 270kg
5) Always unshod and sound over all terrain.
 
1) Fred: 12 yr old brumby x small pony gelding
2) B - T circumference: 16 cm
3) Hoof width: 9 cm
4) Weight (with tape): 100kg
5) Always unshod and sound over all terrain. This little guys feet self maintain in his large steep/rocky paddock. He’s needed a trim only twice in his life!

rachel
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1, Meiko, 7 years old, QH/Paint, 143cm high, gelding (gelded at 5).

2, front leg 19cm

3, hoof  12cm

4, weight measuring tape 415kg

5, soundness.... no problems yet, only been broken in since turning 6, and not ridden everyday (or hard) due to my work committments. Not shod, hooves trimmed monthly.

 

Last edited on Fri Jul 10th, 2009 09:43 pm by rachel

RachelZ
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TB/QH cross mare 7yo

B.T. circum. 8.5 inches

forefoot 4 7/8 inches

weight 1180 by tape

Has had no problems since I've known her. Shod in front (farrier was here today so measure was taken unshod) and barefoot in the back for 3 months now.

Last edited on Sat Jul 11th, 2009 12:11 pm by RachelZ

Alex
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Elle

1. 19 years, stockhorse (?), mare

2. cannon circ = 21cm

3. hoof width = 10.7cm

4. weight (using a weight tape) = 455kg

5. sound barefoot

Arwen

1. 5 years, lipizzaner x andalusian, mare

2. cannon circ = 19.5cm

3. hoof width = 10.2cm

4. weight (using a weight tape) = 440kg

5. becoming sound in boots during straight work (bone spur on caudal aspect of right navicular)

Debbie Turk
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Warmblood x TB (3/4 TB)

Gelding, 14 yrs, 16.2 hh

Weight by tape - 610 kg (1,345 lb)

B-T circumfrence- 22cm (8.66 inches)

Hoof has flares, sole width 125 cm (4.92 inches)

Barefoot for 4 years, sound

minimitts
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These are some of my friend's horses...

1. Percheron mare, 14 yo, circ 10.5 in, weight (by tape) 1850, hoof width (no flare)

7 in, barefoot but not sound for last 2 years due to ringbone

2. Percheron gelding, 16 yo, circ 10 in, weight (by tape) 1900, hoof width (no flare) 7.25 in, on and off again lame for last 8 years.  Barefoot now for last 3 years.  Ringbone in 3 limbs, though vets have also suggested that lameness has other origins too (suggested back problems too)

3. Clydesdale gelding, 6 yo, circ 11 in, weight 2050lb (by tape) 19.2 HH (no joke!!  He's HUGE!), hoof width (no flare) 8.25 in, sound and barefoot ~ ridden daily

Seglawy Jedran
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7 year old CMK- Polish mare
15.2 hands
Left front 7 3/4
Right front 7 7/8
body weight 1018 lbs- weight tape
back cannons  81/4 each
right front hoof 4 7/8
left front 43/4

Jeannie
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16 year old Arab/QH mare
Bone 8 1/4''
Hoof 4 1/4"
Weight 870lbs (weight tape)
Barefoot and sound

DrDeb
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Thank you again to everyone, and now especially to those of you who went over to friends' places so that we could get some big drafters or small ponies....or some of you have waited 'til the farrier got there so you could measure with the shoes off. Alex and Deb T., also thank you to you and to Brenton and Emma....since I know your horses well, it very much helps to have you in the survey because then on the weight estimates, I can compare what the weight tape said or what your vet guessed the weight would be, against my own guess (close agreement in all cases, and thus verified as to having "reasonable" accuracy).

Whenever a scientific study is done in a lab, a great deal of effort is put into training all the lab technicians so that they do whatever techniques as much as possible exactly alike. This is intended to elmininate variation in the data set that is due to "measurement error" or "operator style". However, in plotting up what we've got here plus measurements that I've been taking in my own local area, really I can't find one "outlier" that looks to be a mistake -- or a fib. In other words, all the points are clustering nicely and forming the predicted upward-arching curve (as weight goes up, we expect both B-T and Hoof Width to also increase).

As to fibbing....nobody appears to be doing that either. It really does not matter whether the horse is sound or lame, because this survey is going to be published totally anonymously -- when it is published in Equus Magazine, the reader will not know the horse's name, or the owner's name or the name of the person who took the measurements. So if he's not been real sound, it's quite safe to go ahead and say so.

Neither does it matter, for purposes of this study, WHY the horse was lame. Horses go lame all the time for all kinds of reasons. My belief is that the insight I am trying to convey about the relationship between body weight and limb and hoof size in horses will be evident from the data -- there are going to be some horses where, when the data set is all plotted up, it will be quite possible to say, "that animal has a great chance of becoming unsound because his feet are small compared to his bodywieght." But there will also be a scatter of points identified as "lame" horses that occur throughout the data set, in all weight categories.

So this is why it's been such a great idea to do this survey -- these are real horses that belong to real people, right now and not 100 years ago. So if there are any more of you who wish to post data, again I'd still like to see more Warmbloods, ponies, and the really big horses, but any horse of any size will be welcome and will be included in the dataset.

Thanks very much! -- Dr. Deb

 

Mark
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Here's some data:

(1) Quarter Horse gelding, 8 years old

(2) B-T circumference: 8.5 inches

(3) Forefoot: 5.25 inches across, full width from wall to wall

(4) 1340 lb by weight tape

(5) sound

I am forwarding a photograph of him for possible use in your new conformation series. Hope this helps.

 

 

Gaited Gal
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1.) Billy: Seven year old Miniature Horse Gelding
2.) 4 5/8" leg circumference
3.) 2 5/8" Width of foot including wall
4.) 265# and 8 hands according to weight tape.
5.) Sound and barefoot, great feet.

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Gaited Gal
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1.) Radar: 13 year old Tennessee Walker Gelding.
2.) 7 1/2" leg circumference
3.) 4 3/8 Width of foot including wall.
4.) 830# and 14.1 hands according to weight tape
5.) Sound in spite of being born premature and having a moderate angular limb deformity of toeing out. He is currently shod because he wears the medial side hooves faster and quickly becomes unbalanced, even with frequent trims.

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Gaited Gal
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1.) Hondo: Seven year old Miniature Horse Gelding
2.) 4 3/8" leg circumference
3.)  2 1/2" Width of foot including wall.
4.) 300# and 8.2 hands according to weight tape.
5.) Sound and barefoot, thought he tends to have tight tendons or mild club front hooves, both equally. Frequent trims to knock down the heels help.

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Gaited Gal
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Mules~ Do you need mule data? My neighbor has about a 1/2 dozen of them including a pair from belgium mares, plus the assortment of average stock/saddle horse style.

DrDeb
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Yes, the mule data would be useful too. It is very good of you to offer to go over there and measure -- your neighbor might appreciate looking at the finished graphs, though.

As to Radar's supposed 'angular limb deformity': he has absolutely no such thing. What he DOES have is that the ENTIRE LIMB FROM THE SHOULDER JOINT DOWN is turned out. In other words, he is in the habit of holding his elbows in; he has 'tight elbows'. A horse's knees and toes are locked to his elbows; if the one turns, the others must also turn, and in the same degree. Because a horse cannot rotate the shoulder joint so as to carry the elbows inward without also carrying the knees and toes outward, his toes orient outward.

As far as what you report about him wearing off the medial parts of his feet, sure, absolutely this is what he does, and you are wise to protect the feet with shoes. However, you'd be even wiser to teach the horse the following:

1. Leg yield, both directions; practice every time you ride him. Begin with 'expanding the circle', which is the easiest form to practice.

2. Alternate long-stepping walk (sub-gait) with short-stepping walk (short like you were in a herd of cattle picking one out), with the horse's head and neck stretched forward and down -- down all the way to below his knees. Then you turn him to one side and then the other in a 'snake trail' pattern with his head low.

3. Avoid absolutely any time with the horse's head up/base of neck dropped.

4. Teach him the two-footed or 'plie' bow

5. Teach him to 'wave goodbye', i.e. lift one foot as if to 'shake hands' while standing on the drum, then the other foot. You should not touch the feet or stand within striking distance when you do this; you get the horse to lift the desired foot all by himself, by drawing his awareness to one side, noticing when he might have lifted the foot on his own, and then telling him to lift it (and rewarding him for each incremental try).

Your drum is great and the horse looks confident and happy so that part gets an A+. But you go ahead and do what has been suggested here, and then let us know in six weeks whether he isn't standing with his toes straight forward when he's up there, or even 'pigeon toed' -- there will be a great release of the elbows so that we then see how he was intended to stand. It is the fact that he gaits with more tension in his back than you might have been aware of, and a higher head position than he really should, that causes him to 'guard' by holding his elbows in.-- Dr. Deb

 

LynnF
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I measured one of my mules but didn't post the data because I wasn't sure you would want it.

This is a 10 year old molly.  14.1hh

Bone is 8"

Hoof is 4"

Weight is 900lbs - estimated

She is barefoot and sound.

 

Philine
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Got measurements of a couple of other horses at my stable as well as mine.

12 yr old Morgan gelding

B-T     8 3/8 in

hoof   5 7/8 in

wt      1100 lb  (weight tape)

barefoot-always sound, shod only for the mountains

lightly worked

 

 

30 yr old Appaloosa gelding

B-T      8 1/4 in

hoof    5 3/4 in

wt       1267 lb  (weight tape)

usually barefoot, sometimes shod depending on what owner doing with him-always sound during working life (actually still goes on regular slow, short trail rides with owner in the 'back 40')

light to medium work (when younger)

 

8 yr old Tb mare

B-T  left front     8 in

B-T  right front   7 3/4 in

(standing square-measured both legs several times to confirm difference in legs)

hoof  5 in  (left one)

wt     928 lb (weight tape)

Shod when I got her because she was foot sore without front shoes.  She was also babysitting Tb babies in training and on training rations ( lots of oats, high alfalfa hay etc.)

Kept shoes on for 8 mo although she kept losing them along with chunks of her hooves.  Has been barefoot for about 20 mo.  Ouchy on scattered gravel but sound on softer footing-arena and round pen sand, dirt, packed gravel and also on grass trails.  May not be suitable for survey because of many changes (different stables, different hay, different supplements, no oats anymore, different farriers)  I don't consider her feet to have reached a stable state yet.

lightly worked   

DrDeb
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Folks, I now have data for 75 horses....between what has been submitted here and some others I have gotten locally, that's more than enough for "group" statistical significance on some aspects. This has just been a great response and very, very helpful.

In graphing up the data that we have so far, some gaps are still showing up. At this point, the greatest needs are for:

1. Data from people who own Warmbloods (this can be "full registered" or out of a TB mare -- either one is fine).

2. Data on horses that weigh 1300 lbs. and up

3. Data on horses that weigh between 400 lbs. and 900 lbs. (the larger miniatures, Shetland ponies, Welsh ponies, Icelandics, Fjords, and other larger ponies almost up to horse size).

We have mucho plenty information at this point on horses weighing between 900 and 1300 lbs. -- that's the majority size anyway for riding horses. But if you haven't contributed and you want to, I'm still happy to receive data on any horse of any breed or size at all. -- Dr. Deb

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Have some big horse numbers here...

1.  Des, Percheron x Appaloosa gelding, 18 years old, 16.1 hh.
a.  BT circumference 9"
b.  Foot:  6
c.  Est weight- 1400 (fat old easy keeper with not enough to do!)
d.  sound but prone to stone bruises
2.  Bear, Percheron Stallion, 13 years old, 17.3-18.0 hh.
a.  BT Circ:  11
b.  Foot:  7.5
c.  Est Weight:  1600ish at moment (He looks AWFUL (BCS 3.5) at the moment... hard keeper and he frets 24/7 during breeding season)
d.  sound, if a little stiff from 12 years of perpetual motion [purchased as yearling and had spent most of his first year in a large box stall; very, very high energy horse also].
3.  Ella, Percheron mare, 9 years old, 17.2 hh.
a.  BTC: 10.5
b.  Foot:  7.5 (sole only)
c.  Est weight:  1800
d.  sound
4.  Jules, Percheron mare, 8 years old, 18.0 hh.
a.  BTC:  10.75
b.  Foot:  8
c.  Est weight 1900-2000
d.  driven hard, and sound sound sound.
5.  Annie, Percheron Mare, 6 years old, 18.0 hh.
a.  BTC:  10.75
b.  Foot:  8.5
c.  Est Weight:  1800
d.  sound
6.  Reba, Percheron mare, 5 years old, 18.1 hh.
a.  BTC:  10.25
b.  Foot:  8.25
c.  Est Weight: 1800
d.  sound, but she doesn't do anything- her breeder was an idiot and overfed her dam on corn to keep her fat for show season, blew Reba's hocks and now she has OCD in both hocks and is blind in one eye from trauma after weaning.
7.  Cassie, Percheron mare, 4 years old, 17.3 hh.
a.  BTC:  11
b.  Foot:  measured 8" this spring when we put her pasture plates on.
c.  Est Weight: 1700-1750
d.  Sound
(Preceeding mares are all sired by our stallion, following mares are his harem, but none are dams of above mares)

8.  Linda, Percheron mare, 7 years old, 17.1 hh.
a.  BTC:  10
b.  Foot:  8.5
c.  Est weight: 1650
d.  Sound, but with beginning of sidebone on the cranial aspect of the cartilage, still pillowy on the heel.
9.  Lola, Perchron mare, 6 years old, 18.0 hh.
a.  BTC:  11
b.  Foot:  8.5-8.75
c.  Est Weight: 1900
d.  Pasture/broodmare sound at the moment after getting hit by a car last year and doing a number on one of her (many prize winning) hocks.  I rode her a few times this spring; she's square and swingy at the walk, and a little off at the trot.
10.  Susie, Percheron mare, 4 years old, 19.0 hh (on the stick)
a.  BTC:  10.25
b.  Foot:  7 (sole only)
c.  Est weight- tonnish+
d.  Sound and won't be asked to do a lot of heavy work anytime soon.

All weights are veeeeeeeery guesstimated...I abandoned "the formula" when it told me Jules weighed 750 pounds and my weight tape stops at 1375.  Aside from the stallion, everyone is slick and fat-  6's and 7's all around.


Last edited on Fri Jul 17th, 2009 02:26 am by Fryslyn McGee

DrDeb
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Fryslyn, thank you so much, your data is an amazing amount of help.

Now can we get some WB owners and some folks who own ponies or small horses in the 400 to 900 lb. range to write in? I pop onto this thread every morning looking to see whether any of those have showed up!

Thanks to everyone, again -- Dr. Deb

DrDeb
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Hello out there! Does anybody who reads here own a Warmblood? We could sure use your data. I've been calling all my horse-breeder buddies today to enlist their help, too, but Forum readers are our best source for this study because the data comes in the quickest. Our deadline is approaching and I just want to make this appeal again, in hopes of scaring up some WB's. Thanks! -- Dr. Deb

AdamTill
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Okay, trimming day, so lots of info for you. Thanks to Monty for the help and willingness to share pony data! All pony weight by tape, all hooves sole measurements, all barefoot and sound.

Flash
Section A Welsh
12 yrs old
11h2"
607 lbs by tape
6" cannon
3.5" sole (inside wl/ inside wl)

Ringmaster
Section B Welsh
585 lbs
12 yrs
12h2"
6 3/4" cannon
4 3/4" sole

Promise (full sister to Ringmaster)
Section B Welsh
11 yrs
12h 2"
596 lbs
6 1/2" cannon
3 3/8" sole

Snowy (lateral work master, extraordinaire) <- I added that bit
Welsh X something
12h3"
16 yrs old
708 lbs
6" cannon
3 1/2" sole

Bali
German Riding Pony
16 yrs old
14h1"
684 lbs
6 1/2" cannon
3 3/8" sole

Memory (I think, can't read own writing)
 Section B Welsh
13h3"
4 yrs old
7" cannon
4" sole
794lbs

Name withheld by request
Austrian Warmblood
13 yrs old...I think. Within a year.
1450 lbs by visual comparison with Marshall
16h3"
10" cannon
4.5" sole (was likely shod early, natural sole would have been wider)
Barefoot 3 yrs, was sound shod in plain perimeter before that. Horse tough to keep sound for non-hoof related reasons (musculoskeletal due to very rare bone disease and digestive issues)...very good feet. Nicest movement I've ever seen anywhere when he's doing well.

Found measurements for my old warmblood
Marshall
Holsteiner X TB
12 yrs at measurement time
1400 lbs by truck scale
16h3"
10" cannon
6.25" sole
Bought at 10 yrs old completely lame on sand, in bar shoes (had been shod 4 yrs when I started riding him as a lesson horse). Basically impossible to keep sound shod, was later found by me to be road foundered in radiographs. Bought horse, pulled shoes, sound after a year of rehab. Horse sound for riding barefoot on all but gravel roads, sound on gravel roads with boots in front. Stayed sound 3 more yrs (sold), but tricky feet to trim due to poor concavity and very very thin walls.

Last edited on Sun Jul 19th, 2009 04:22 am by AdamTill

DrDeb
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Adam, thank you very kindly and please say 'thanks' also to the people who own the horses that aren't yours. Do assure them again that this is absolutely, totally anonymous. Their horse is going to show up as an unlabeled dot on a chart -- they can know which one it is by cross-referencing the weight vs. bone or weight vs. hoof width data themselves.

And often, thanks to all the people who have now written in -- we're up to 90 different animals now -- two or more animals will almost overlap, forming a cluster, so it really is anonymous as to which horse is which.

No WB owner is in any danger from me or this survey of losing some kind of points, being criticized, losing their chance at registration or approval or whatever. I do hope more WB owners will participate in this out of just the plain old desire to know where their horses would fit in, how they would compare in this area to horses of other breeds and sizes. Rational information can do nothing but help.

Also, remember -- I already have, through the published literature which goes back into the 1880's, more than 5,500 sets of measurements, hundreds of which are WB's. So I already DO know where these horses stand -- or I should say, where they STOOD -- because the most recent study in the big data set was in 1970. That's nearly 40 years ago now, and so one major thing we're doing here is trying to get a handle on whether things have changed in that time.

I have spoken to my old friend Dr. Matthew Mackay-Smith by telephone today....his family is a major breeder of Welsh ponies and also (at one time in the past), Cleveland Bays -- the only WB's to exist in the U.S. until 1972, when Anne Gribbons imported the first Trakehners to Long Island. Dr. Matthew understands the purpose of this survey and has agreed to contribute as many measurements as he can. So our pony 'gap' is getting filled nicely, and I hope to see the WB 'gap' filling up soon too. I wouldn't mind hearing from some American Saddlebred owners too! Thanks to everyone again. Cheers! -- Dr. Deb

GoldPony
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5 yr. old Connemara mare

Bone: 7 3/4"

Wt.: 821 lbs by tape

Hoof: 5 1/4"

Sound, has never been shod.

I can possibly get you 4 more med. ponies as soon as I can contact the owners. I also can get a 5 yr. old, 17 hand reg. saddlebred mare belonging to a friend. I'll work on that, it may take a few days.

Oh yeah, I put a weight tape on the Haflinger mare I posted earlier and found I had guessed her weight within 10 lbs. of the tape results - got lucky!

GoldPony
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Here's two more:

10 (ish) yr old grade Haflinger gelding

Wt. 840 lbs

Bone 8 1/4"

Hoof 4 7/8" shod, sound

This guy is about 13.1 and a chunky powerhouse of a pony!


5 yr old reg. Saddlebred mare

Ht. 17 hands

Wt. 1016 lbs

Bone 8"

Hoof 6" flat shod and sound

A beautiful, athletic mare!

Mark
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20-year-old Quarter Horse gelding

15.2 hands

995 lb.

B-T circumference: 7.5 inches

Wall-to-wall hoof width: 5 inches

 

3-year-old Quarter Horse gelding

15.3 hands

1050 lb.

B-T circumference: 8.5 inches

Wall-to-wall hoof width: 5.25 inches

 

DrDeb
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Thanks very much to you both, for going to this extra effort. We are now up to 95 horses measured.

Mark, I did finally get time to review the photo you sent to me, of the dark bay or brown QH gelding. I have a query on that image -- was this a typo? You said the animal stands 17:2 hands -- that's almost unheard-of in Quarter Horses. Did you really mean 15:2? It's quite common for QH's to weigh over 1200 lbs. and yet not be even 16 hh. Plus, if the animal has the build of a QH -- which the photo shows -- and he really did stand 17:2, he would have to weigh far more than 1320 lbs. So something must be off somewhere. Please let me know -- with my grateful thanks ahead of time. -- Dr. Deb

Mark
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Hi, Deb: I hope the photo and data can be of some help to you and your work. I will try to answer all of the questions you posed.

Marvin is indeed a registered Quarter Horse, but of the appendix persuasion. In the interest of full disclosure, he's more Thoroughbred than anything. I am looking at his registration certificate now. His sire is three-quarters Thoroughbred, and his dam is a full-out Thoroughbred. So, despite an AQHA certificate of registration, Marvin is primarily Thoroughbred. I think of him as a Quarter Horse because I am involved in Quarter Horse showing and whatnot. I apologize if there was any confusion, as I probably should have mentioned that in the original message.

His height is neither a typographical error nor an exaggeration; he's a big guy bought specifically because of his temperament (amenable) and talent over fences (average but VERY forgiving), AND because of my own stature and girth (tall and no longer svelte).

Now on to the topic of weight. I too thought 1340 lb was way too light when I got that measurement repeatedly off the weight-tape. I've read some work comparing weight-tape and electronic scale measurements, so it wouldn't have surprised me if the weight-tape was off; though handy to gauge fluctuations, they seem to be less accurate for horses on either end of the weight spectrum. Unfortunately for me and my pocketbook, I've had occasion to get an electronic-scale weight on Marvin. Today marks Marvin's seventh day at the vet clinic being treated for a very stubborn case of cellulitis in a hind limb. The vet, who participates in horse-pulling contests -- so therefore has loads of experience when it comes to estimating body weight -- eyeballed him at around 1500 lb. When he was walked onto the digitial scales, the monitor flashed 1420. So, there again, using the tools at hand I was off (but I tried!).

Taking all this into consideration, a more accurate portrayal of Marvin may be this:

Thoroughbred/QH cross, 8 years old

B-T circumference: 8.5 inches

17.3 hands, 1420 lb (by electronic scale)

Wall-to-wall hoof width: 5.25 in

Now, the measurement that I couldn't wrap my mind around was the hoof-width one. I retook this one three times because he looks like he has good-sized feet for his considerable size, without any obvious cosemtic foolery. In fact, I really believe in my farrier's knowledge, and the horse has been sound. I will revisit that when I get him back home.

I hope I've cleared up some of your queries surrounding Marvin's measurements.

Mark

 

DrDeb
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Mark, thank you very much. Measurements on these out-sized horses are quite important and this is very helpful. Into the data set he goes!!

You will see when I publish the data (and that means the raw data as well as the sort of revelatory manipulations that I do with the data) what the size of Marvin's feet (and B-T circumference) mean. This is WHY he is important, WHY measurements on Warmbloods that are often in the same weight category as Marvin are important, and WHY (at the other end of the spectrum) measurements on the 400-900 lb. ponies are important.

It is not possible to magnify the size of the horse without imposing certain changes. This does not mean a person can't use a bigger horse, or that bigger horses are all unsound, or any such thing. What it means is that horsemen must use wisdom, they must use courtesy toward the animal. If a person is using a bigger horse, then just because the horse is big, physics tells us that "certain penalties and restrictions apply." -- Dr. Deb

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Tennesee Walker/QH cross, gelding, 26, still in light work, 15.3 hands

B-T 9 inches

Wall to wall hoof, just trimmed 5.25 inches

Weight 1260, scale

Barefoot, sound



Appaloosa/QH, gelding, 19 years, 16.2 hands

B-T 10 inches

Wall to wall hoof, just trimmed 5.75 inches

Weight 1400, scale

Barefoot, sound



QH/TB gelding, 15 years, 16.1 hands

B-T 9 inches

Wall to wall hoof, just trimmed 5.25 inches

Weight 1320, scale

Barefoot, sound (needs shoes for gravel roads)



Percheron/ TBXQH gelding, 12 years, 16.1 hands

B-T 10 inches

Wall to wall hoof, just trimmed 6 inches

Weight 1420 scale

Barefoot, sound



Hanoverian/Arab mare, 10 years, 15.2 hands

B-T 9 inches

Wall to wall hoof, just trimmed, 5.5 inches

Weight 1220 scale

Barefoot, sound

DrDeb
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Brandy, thank you very much; your horses have helped to fill in one of the gaps in our data. Anyone else out there have horses that weigh between 1200 and 1700 lbs.? These are the bigger TB's, many WB's, and some crossbreds like Brandy's. We would love to hear from you -- it will help you and your horses too -- many thanks -- Dr. Deb

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Visited my friend to day, here are three more

Appaloosa/QH mare, 15.2 hands, 14 years

B-T 8.75 inches

Wall to wall hoof 4 5/8 inches

1260 lbs, scale

Barefoot, sound



Appaloosa/QH gelding, 15.2 hands, 19 years (same app stallion as mine)

B-T 9.5 inches

Wall to wall hoof 4 5/8 inches

1320 scale

Barefoot, sound



Appaloosa/TB gelding, 15.3 hands, 10 years

B-T 8.75 inches

Wall to wall hoof 5.25 inches

1220 scale

Barefoot, sound

These three were trimmed 7/21/09, measured today

DrDeb
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Brandy, thanks again for this extra effort. I do have one query about these last several horses that belong to your friend. Especially with regard to the 19 year old Appy X QH gelding -- has this horse had any difficulties staying sound in the past? Particularly, has he had, or does he have, ringbone or sidebone? Also -- are his hooves kind of low-angled in the walls, in other words kind of 'squashed' looking, or do they have upright walls similar to a mule?

I ask because of the way this horse plots in comparison to some others -- it is not shameful of course to report that a horse is, or has been, unsound. In fact, it is these horses that teach us the most. Thanks again -- Dr. Deb

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do you still need small pony data or have you got enough now?

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Good morning Dr. Deb,

The appy/qh belonging to my friend....about 8-9 years ago, he had a very slight limp that showed up only at a trot on a circle going to the left.  We changed farriers and she put him on a diet and he has been completely sound since then.  He has no evidence of sidebone or ringbone that can be detected without an x-ray (our horses get a wellness check every 6 months and this is part of the vet exam).  He also has no splints.

I don't understand what you mean about the wall angles in relation to a mule foot, but his feet are decidedly oval and not round.  They are not at all diamond shaped and have no flares, but are longer front to back than they are wide.  Her mare has similarly shaped feet, but not as exaggerated.

We have shod our horses periodically in the past (although our horses don't always live together we keep them all on the same management regime) when we plan to ride gravel roads quite a bit.  We haven't had trouble with them, but our thinking was that the horses have good feet so we wanted to keep them that way and since the hard, dry gravel roads are very different than their pastures, we did it as preventive.  The last few years we've been doing different riding, on trails that aren't so rocky, so have left them bare and haven't had trouble.

I hope this helps. 

 

 

holistichorse
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hello, just joined this forum and thought maybe you could use some warmblood info!


Hanoverian,gelding, 11 years old 16.3hh

B-T - 10 1/2 inches

forefoot-wall to wall  6 3/4

weight- 1450 lbs - weight tape

was sound unshod until couple of years ago when he fractured his coffin bone, since then shod in front and sound when working.(when he is working...not shod now, not working hard and not lame)


Oldenburg mare, 5 years old 16.2

B-T - 9 inches

Forefoot-wall to wall  6 1/4

weight - 1300 lbs - weight tape

sound, never been shod


Dutch Warmblood gelding, 8 years old 16.3hh

B-T - 10 inches

forefoot-wall to wall  6 1/2 inches

weight - 1400 lbs - weight tape

sound, never been shod


Dutch warblood gelding, 4 years old, 18 hh

B-T- 10 inches

forefoot -wall to wall- 6 3/4 inches

weight- 1360 lbs - weight tape

sound, never been shod


hope this helps!

DrDeb
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Dear Holistic -- Welcome to the Forum, and thank you very much for filling in with some Warmblood data.

I do have a query on yours -- are these rather flat-bodied horses? How much width would you say there is between their front legs where they exit the body at the top -- in other words, if you pet them palm-up on the undersurface of the chest, do the sides of your hand touch the forelegs? Or are their legs much wider apart than that?

I ask because, for the heights you are reporting, the weights are rather low -- especially for the horse reported as being 18 hands high. But the weight you give is possible if the animal is very thin and bony, or else very flat-bodied and narrow-chested. Weight tapes are sometimes less accurate for bigger horses. -- Dr. Deb

holistichorse
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Hi DrDeb, thanks for the welcome!

As far as the weights go, the 18 hh boy is still just a big gangly kid...he's done far too
much growing up for his age and not enough growing out(flat bodied might be a good way to describe him)...he isn't too narrow at the chest, but could use a few more pounds...

The five year old mare looks good and fit, as do the two other boys, the 11 year old is quite wide between the front legs.

I will weight tape them again, but must probably gestestimate that the weight tape is somewhat off....I don't like skinny horses :)

Actually just rescued a 17.3 TB that I didn't include because he is skin and bone and
some "farrier" trimmed every last inch off his toe and I am surprised that he is even sound!(going to ask some questions about him in another post!)

Hope that explains the size/weight thing 

thank you :)

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Here are some more measurements. I recently visited a friend who maintains a large stable of hunters and jumpers. We spent an enjoyable couple of hours with measuring tapes, weight tapes, and height sticks. In addition to the hunters and jumpers, there were a few heavier horses used for vaulting on the premises, so I got their measurements too. The end of the list includes a few retirees on the farm. Anyway, some big, some small, some in-between. These are all new measurements, no repeats from anything I submitted previously. (I mention this because Horse 1's numbers look similar to Marvin's, but as the descriptor shows, he's a Warmblood-cross.)
 
This has been an interesting exercise because the more horses I measure, the more I wonder about the validity of weight tapes for large horses.

Now that I am back in my town of residence, I have my eye on a couple of Arabians and Saddlebreds that hang their halters at the boarding stable. If you've had enough of me and my numbers, just let me know.

This has been a fun exercise!



 

Attachment: Data Table-Horse Measurements.pdf (Downloaded 33 times)

Last edited on Sat Aug 1st, 2009 02:53 am by Mark

DrDeb
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Oh no, Mark -- I'm not sick of your contributions at all! Very grateful indeed for this contribution. Wonderful! It puts us up to almost 130 animals measured in total, with a few more fairly big horses in there where we most need them.

I am very happy not only to hear that you are finding this a fun exercise and feel that you are learning something from it -- but also to note that your table has been downloaded several times already, meaning, I assume, that other readers here are graphing the results. That is absolutely the right thing to do!

Thank you again! -- Dr. Deb

DrDeb
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Mark, having graphed up your data tonight so that I can easily detect outliers and anomalies, I need to query one of the horses for which you submitted data. The one that seems a bit out of line is the 12 YO Percheron gelding that stands 16:3 hands with reported BT of 10.5 in. and hoof width of 7.5 in., with weight reported at 1330 lbs.

He plots out not completely out of reasonable possibility, but the weight seems lower by at least 100 lbs. than it should be. The same may be said for the other very large horses you submitted, and I agree that weight tape measurements get less accurate the bigger the horse is.

I query this because, however, it might not just be the weight tape; maybe the BT and hoof width were mis-reported, or mis-reported in addition to the weight being off. So if you and your friend revisit this project together perhaps you could check. Also, if you or your friend happen to have opportunity in the next month or so to actually weigh some of these animals on a truck scale, or at a veterinary clinic, we could possibly develop a formula to tell us by what proportion the weight tape is off.

If none of these things is convenient, though, the horse I've queried is the current higher-weight candidate for the proverbial "drop the highest and lowest measured datum" which we do prior to statistical analysis. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Brandy
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Dr. Deb, if you ever get some data that would allow correction equations to be developed for the weight tape, I'd sure love to see that.  I weigh my horses every six months and then compare that to the weight tape.  They are on the big side.  The weight tape is off by 150-200 lbs every time.  My suspicion is that the weight tape overestimates the small horses and underestimates the big ones, but does a pretty good job in the middle.  I've wanted a data set to develop the equations with for a long time......my puny example of 5 horses isn't enough.

DrDeb
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Yes, Brandy, that's my feeling also. Where it is an experienced horseman or an equine vet, I think their 'eyeball' estimate is often better than the weight tape in the case of the larger horses.

Maybe I'll start a thread just for the purpose of trying to develop a 'correction algorithm' for weight tapes sometime later this fall. Meanwhile, for the present study, I pretty much have to go with the weights as they are reported, and simply call that 'variation' in the data.

Mark, if you see this -- I forgot to ask you, are any of the horses in the last large batch you sent unsound currently, or have any had some kind of chronic trouble, i.e. specifically: ringbone, sidebone, 'flat, sore feet', or navicular?

Thanks -- Dr. Deb

Charlotte
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A couple more for you Dr Deb if they are any help:

Z:

Swedish warmblood/TB, 7 yrs 15.2hh, gelding

Cannon bone: 8 1/4 inches

Width of hoof: 5 1/2 inches

Guesstimated weight: 1100 lbs

Barefoot, generally sound but can peck over stoney ground

A:

Welsh Section A, 5 yrs 11hh, gelding

Cannon bone: 6 1/4 inches

Width of hoof: 4 inches

Guesstimated weight: 440 lbs

Barefoot, sound on all surfaces

Linda
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13 year old,  Half Arab/ Half Tennesee Walking Horse,  Mare

B-T  8 inches

Wall to wall hoof,  just trimmed in preparation of shoeing  4.75  inches

Weight  1200 lbs. ,  weight tape

Is shod at all times, removed shoes prior to foaling 5 years ago this past March, turned out not to be a good thing for her, was very tender footed, and hooves chipped excessively.

Linda
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I just realized I did'nt give my mares height.  16 hands

GoldPony
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One more:

13 yr. old Oldenburg/Thoroughbred mare

Ht.- 15.1 hds.

Bone - 8"

Wt. - 1000 lbs by tape

Hoof - 5 1/8 "

Shod and sound.

DrDeb
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Thank you, ladies -- your efforts are very much appreciated. Anybody else out there with bigger-sized horses that they are using in some riding discipline, i.e. part-draft or draft crosses, and the more "Olympic-sized" WBs? Hoping to hear from y'all. This study is going beautifully, by the way -- results to be posted this fall, so you still have time to contribute. -- Dr. Deb

Mark
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Deb: The batch of data that I sent last week was from a group of horses in Kentucky. Unfortunately, I am back in Pennsylvania. Horses 1-11 and 17-21 can be remeasured, as I will be taking another trip to the Bluegrass State at the end of this month, and they reside year-round at that farm. Horses 12-16 are nearer your neck of the woods, as these horses were flown to Kentucky for the vaulting test-event for the World Equestrian Games (WEG) but are now back on the West Coast. Unfortunately, ever seeing them again is improbable, unless maybe it's next fall at the WEG. You'll notice, that the one horse you specifically asked about, the 12-year-old Percheron, is one of the "traveling" horses. Because of my unfamiliarity with Horses 12-16, I cannot speak of their soundness.

But I do have some additional information on some of the other horses:

Horse 1: ringbone; significantly cold-backed, enough so that it hinders his ability to work well, unsure of what treatment modalities have been used to ameliorate pain other than proper saddle-fitting

Horse 4: arthritic changes in several joints, particularly fore ankles and hocks; not sound for everyday use

Horse 5: cold splint, nothing to suggest chronic pain

Horse 6: chronic arthritis in hocks; requires intraarticular injections for continued use as a high-level hunter (3'6 fences)

Horse 10: chronic arthritis in hocks; requires intervention for continued use as a low-level show hunter (2'6" fences)

Horse 20: arthritic changes in ankle; requires intervention for continued moderate-work use as a school horse (ridden three or four times weekly, usually not jumping)

Horse 21: pelvic-bone fracture as a younger horse; does not seem to have changed movement, per owner


Here's a plan that I might be able to carry out when I am in Kentucky. I have access to portable electronic scales there. Assuming my workplace is agreeable, I bet I could borrow this and take it to my friend's farm, where I can remeasure all of the horses with the weight tape and then also get an electronic reading. Again, I wouldn't be able to get all 21 horses, but probably several of the ones mentioned. I will try to make arrangements. If all goes well, I could have numbers to you by the last week of August.


I hope this information helps. Mark

 

DrDeb
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Absolutely tremendous, Mark. The business with the portable scale will go a long way toward helping us figure out how to write a "correction algorithm" for weight tapes.

Also: I am specially grateful for the soundness/unsoundness information. Chronically unsound horses are of special value because they go on our chart as red dots. The idea is to see if the red dots have a tendency to cluster anywhere within the total sample.

Anyone else having access to horses in the weight range over 1200 lbs. is specially welcome to post here, with my continuing thanks. -- Dr. Deb

GoldPony
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I know you need big ole' warmbloods, but there are none available so I thought I would add one more pony of a different type.

5 yr. old mare -cross of reg. Spanish Mustang/BLM mustang

Ht. 14.1

Wt. 710 by tape

Bone- 7 5/8"

Hoof- 5"
Barefoot and sound, ridden regularly.

ozgaitedhorses
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Better late than never....

1.
10 year old mare; Standardbred
B-T circumference: 20.3cm
fore: 12.1cm (wall to wall)
height: 155cm
weight: 560kg (weight tape)
toes in at the front; shod while she was racing (pacer), had at least two bowed tendons during that time; barefoot for the last 5 years with one instance of bursitis/tenosynovitis, but otherwise sound

2.
10 year old mare; 1/2 Arab, 1/2 Peruvian Paso
B-T circumference: 18.0cm
fore: 10.8cm (wall to wall)
height: 145cm
weight: 480kg (weight tape)
never shod, sound

3.
4.5 year old gelding; 1/4 Arab, 3/4 Peruvian Paso (son of horse #2)
B-T circumference: 18.1cm
fore: 11.0cm (wall to wall)
height: 140cm
weight: 420kg (weight tape)
never shod, sound so far, but we'll see...

Cheers,
Manu

 

AngelaT
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Don't know if you are still compiling data, but we had to wait on the next farrier visit. It was an interesting exercise anyway and we'll be looking forward to your article. This has also inspired me to get a scale weight on the horses.

1) Morgan/Percheron mare, 9 yo

B-T 9 in

5.75 in wall to wall

1300 lb taped

Sound, shod

2) TB gelding, 21 yo

B-T 8.5 in

4.5 sole to sole

1000 lb taped

sound only with corrective shoeing,  history of distal P1 fracture left front

3) Belgian/QH mare, 9 yo

 B-T  8 5/8 in

5.75 in wall to wall

1200 lb taped

Barefoot, sound

Marne
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Hope this isn't too late to  be of any help...

#1 horse is  30 years old, Egyptian bred Arabian, and a gelding

Cannon bone is 8 1/2 "

width of foot from outside of wall to other outside of wall is 4 3/4", his feet are not round.

I estimate his WT at about 950#...we have nothing but a WT tape for cows.  HE is 15 hands 3 " tall barefoot with just trimmed feet.

He is entirely sound,...having not worn shoes now for over 15 years now.  He is not ridden very often but when we do, he gets along fine on our roads which are all blacktop and some gravel.


#2 horse is 11 years old, halter bred  Quarter horse, mare

Cannon bone is 7 1/2 "

width of barefoot estimation as she is currently shod is 4 1/2 " Her feet are not round.

I estimate her WT at 1000#, again no WT tape but the one we use on our cows, and she is 15 hand 1 1/2 " tall.

She was sound barefoot all summer here on our black top roads and gravel ( it is the only place we have to ride here) till it rained for weeks here and her soles got so soft that she became ouchy and the walls  wore way too short for riding on this kinda of surface , so i had her shod in the front feet only. She is perfectly sound now.

I bought this mare last Oct,,knowing she had one front foot that was a slight club...which over winter really got a lot worse.  I had the vet and my farrier work on her...and after some chiro work from the vet and my farrier trimming her often, she has remained sound and there is never more  a few degrees angle difference in her front feet now.  I also got a ATH saddle for her ( and me! ) as i think most of her foot troubles were caused by ill fitting saddles in her past.  Her back and shoulders and knees were pretty messed up in addition to her foot but after my vet working on her, the shoer trimming her often and riding her with the ATH saddle that fits her wonderfully , you would not know she was the same horse, looking at her back AND her foot.

Very interesting reading all this.  Marne

Carey
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I've been meaning to respond to this-- hope I am not too late!!

Colby- 22yrs Belgium Draft/ TB  16.2 hands  I don't have a tape-- but he has got to be 1400 lbs. 

Barefoot sound- somewhat retired Cross country/ dressage horse-- still trail riding

Bone 11 inches

Hoof  5 3/4 inches

Was sound all of his life- barefoot for 4 years

 

JR 20 yrs TB  retired Hunter  now kids horse  16.2 hands 1150lbs best guess

bone 9 1/4 inches

Hoof 4 3/4 inches- barefoot

no history of injury that we know of-- he was raced

 

Finnagan 10 yrs Hanoverian 16.2 hands 1200lbs

bone 9 inches

hoof 5.25 inches

barefoot-- this horse has had issures mainly stifle

 

Laura 8 yrs grade TB 15.2  1000lbs

bone 9 inches

hoof 4.75 inches

sound barefoot

 

Ruby QH 10 years 14.1 hands 1000 shes pregnant-- normally a little lighter

bone 8 inches

hoof 4.5 inches

sound barefoot -- she did pull a rear suspensory before me

 

Cocoa 3 years Registered half arabian/ percheron 15.2 hands 1250

 Bone 9 inches

hoof 5.5 inches

barefoot sound

 

Jacquie
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Sorry its so late, hope its still in time to be useful to you:

Fox

Irish Draught x Appaloosa 16:2hh 9 inches bone, 6.5inches hood (shod), 1200lbs with measure tape. 8 years old and sound so far. Schooled and hacked, plus ocasional dressage competitions for fun.

 

Sunny Boy

Welsh x ? 12:3hh 7 inches of bone, 4.5inches hoof (unshod) 664 lbs with measure tape. 14 years old and sound so far. Schooled and hacked

 

Storm

14:2hh Lipizzaner pure bred 5 inches hoof (shod), 9 inches of bone, 1050lb with measure tape 15 years old and arthritic hocks,plus luxating patella problem inherited from previous poor training/riding giving rise to extreme weakness. Otherwise sound. Schooled and hacked plus ocasional dressage competitions for fun.

 

Whisper

15:2hh 8 inches bone, 5.5 inch hoof (shod) , 1033lb. 12 year old Connemara x TB sound so far. Showjumped, schooled and hacked.

 




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