ESI Q and A Forums Home
 Search       Members   Calendar   Help   Home 
Search by username
Not logged in - Login | Register 

Improving a horse's throughness.
 Moderated by: DrDeb  
 New Topic   Reply   Print 
AuthorPost
Name Withheld
Guest
 

Joined: 
Location:  
Posts: 
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 12:16 pm
 Quote  Reply 
My horse is 10 years old and trained to Prix St. Georges.
I ride him in a double bridle because he is relatively difficult to get through.  He has a powerful engine behind, but locks up his back and neck.  He is above the bit at the start of the ride, heavy and leaning by the end.  When he is finally on the bit he typically does not chew.  I have tried different warm-up routines and tack to ensure he is comfortable and happy.
Does anybody have any additional insight you could share with me?

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3233
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 07:09 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Yes, Name Withheld: I would first like to praise you for being a realist and a good observer. Your description of what happens to horses as a result of the "training" they receive in quest of prizes in competitive dressage is accurate not only for your own horse, but for many.

A horse cannot be a good mover -- in other words, he cannot move well -- with his poll, jaws, back, and neck locked. And this is also the direct cause of his high-headedness/being above the bit, and also for his being as you say "heavy" toward the end of your test or ride.

So the word that I have to offer you, Name Withheld, is that you need to start completely over. Yourself for one, and your horse for another. This is what I would tell you if you showed up in my riding class: you need to start over completely from the beginning.

For there is no other way. If a child is working on learning to do sums, and he turns his paper in, and the teacher tells him that he got the wrong total, there is no other way to fix it than for the child to go back to the place in the column where he made his first error, correct that error at that point, and then go on from that place. This would be true whether the error was made at the first figure or at the last figure. This is what I mean when I say "you must completely start over."

It is true that there is a progression in training a horse, but this progression has little or nothing to do with what you have been taught -- i.e., it has little or nothing to do with what is required or called for in the competitive dressage levels or tests.

Also, I observe that the methodology followed by 90% of people engaged in competitive dressage is not likely to produce the fluid beauty in movement and the prompt, willing responsiveness that we ALL hold as ideals. Specifically, "pushing the horse forward from the hindquarters into a fixed hand" is fatally antithetical to everything you want to have, and yet this is what you will have been taught (I know this because it is what your HORSE has told both of us).

I want you to read the above paragraph again, and let me unpack two things in there in more detail:

(1) You do NOT want to "push the horse forward from the hindquarters...." This is because you do not want to PUSH. Rather, the horse should (and will, if you give him a chance) offer. All healthy horses love to move. It is a laughable, but terrible, mistake when a rider has a horse that is not innately a slug, but is taught to think that she needs to do anything about trying to cause more movement than the horse already offers.

(2) You do NOT want to "fix" your hands. Particularly, you must never use the two hands the same way at the same time. This will cure you of the type of not-obvious but still pernicious pulling that I observe so many competitive dressage riders doing. You are pulling anytime: (a) you are attempting to drag the horse's body away from where his consciousness/desires/birdie is; or (b) anytime you exert continuous backward traction on the reins (competitive dressage people do this, along with many other sorts of "English" riders, because they think this is what "contact" is).

What you have missed, Name Withheld, along with so many other people, is how to cause a horse to give himself to you. You do this by:

-- Making yourself receptive to receive; ceasing to "speak" all the time

-- Willingness to go along with the horse's ideas; ceasing to demand anything at all

-- Learning to shape his ideas and desires, so that your idea becomes his idea

-- Learning to shape the energy the horse offers not as a dam across a flowing river, but as the levees that parallel the river and guide and channel its energy

-- Remembering (or perhaps, learning for the first time) what transitions are for, and performing, as Ray Hunt's students do, on the order of 500 transitions per riding hour (a transition is any change of gait, tempo, step length, direction, bend, or energy level)

-- Ignoring what anyone, any coach, any trainer, any judge, or any system or society says, and learning to listen to the ONE individual whose opinion matters -- your horse

As to specifics: Name Withheld, perhaps you're new to this space, so you haven't had time yet to read some of the posts here, or aren't aware of the many helps available through our Knowledge Base and our Bookstore. So I would advise you to begin by reading "Woody" and "True Collection" in Knowledge Base. Perhaps after that you'd like to take a look at The Birdie Book, which is available through our Bookstore.

Or again, you can materially help yourself by going to find Ray Hunt. Find out where he's going to be by going to http://www.rayhunt.com and then just take yourself to whatever place he's scheduled to be. Plan on staying the whole time, and throw away your cell phone so that you can sit in the bleachers for the entire time listening and taking notes. Ray is one of the great master horsemen of our time, as well as a master of coaching.

Beyond that, go see Harry Whitney (http://www.harrywhitney.com) or Josh Nichol (http://www.eagleswingranch.com) or Joe Wolter or Bryan Neubert or Tom Curtin or Buck Brannaman. They will one and all see what the deal is with your horse and you, and they will really help you. Go see Mike Schaffer if you want instruction more in the "dressage" style, or Marie Zdunic.

From your letter, Name Withheld, I derive that you're sick and tired of having your back and neck beat to death by a horse that is not a "big" mover but merely a bad mover. You're sick and tired of the ugly pulling match that it gets to be in every test. Perhaps you've seen the bloody spur lesson on the horizon, or maybe have already had some of those, and your conscience has revolted (as it should). And yet you do not see what else is to be done, except maybe give the whole thing up -- thinking that either your horse or you lacks the "talent".

But I am here to tell you, Name Withheld, that all of that is a lie. All normal horses can piaffe. All normal horses love to move and will move freely, on their own, if they can just be permitted to do that in comfort and ease. All normal horses have soft, elastic backs, and no normal horse braces his jaws or neck; they only do that in response to a certain type of rider who has a certain type of hands -- and attitude.

So that's where I'll close this letter -- with a quote from the flagship page of this Website:

"Equine Studies Institute is a colloquium of friends who share an attitude and an approach to horsemanship."

Welcome home, Name Withheld!

Sincerely -- Dr. Deb

 

 

Pam
Member


Joined: Wed Mar 21st, 2007
Location: Lafayette, California USA
Posts: 146
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 10:22 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dear Name Withheld, 

Please listen to what Dr. Deb is telling you.  I have been with the conventional dressage trainers as well (although I'm a novice rider) and I know exactly how they are "training" you and your horse.  It is not good horsemanship and will ruin your horse and your back.  I always had a sore back and hips under that kind of training but now that I have been training my horse myself we just don't have these problems.  Oh ya, I had a horse with a stiff back and neck too.  I tried every type of warm up routine you could think of but nothing helped him.  He got worse and worse over time.  None of these instructors could help me to calm my horse down when he got "hot" or supple him.  I used to think he just couldn't be supple.  He also got short- strided with this type of training.

But with the information on this forum (for horsemanship) and Mike Schaffer (who is an ESI recommended instructor) I have gotten out of that cycle of horrid riding and horsemanship.  A whole new world has opened up for my horse and I. The main things I try and remember from the Woody article are  1) calm  2) supple 3) straight 4) forward, and in that order!  When I started over, for probably 6 weeks all I did when I rode was to focus on whether or not my horse stayed calm.  And like Mike Schaffer points out, they are not allowed to go badly.  If my horse braced, I stopped.  If he pulled, I stopped.  To the onlooker it looked like nothing was happening, especially to the other dressage riders in my barn.  But for about 6 weeks my horse stayed calm every time I rode.  In my dressage lessons he liked to spook especially if we upped the work load.  Then I focused on number two, keeping him supple.  I did mostly walking for the 6 weeks with just a little trot.  Now I focus on keeping him straight because the first two items have become second nature to me.  And now finally, after about 9 weeks or so on our own, and taking it slowly, I am asking for forward and it is a far better forward than in the past.  My hands are not fixed like I was taught either.  The fixed hands used to make my horse spook.  He couldn't handle the pressure.  I don't ride with spurs anymore and don't spank him with the whip like I was taught.  I use the whip but only a light tap behind the leg. He stays calm and supple.  He is more off my leg and bends very nicely without bracing.  I rarely ride on the fence and do tons of transitions!  Lots of figure eights and schooling turns.  In fact the best way I have found to get my horse supple are walk trot transitions.  He straightens right up and gets very balanced.  I beleive that is where the forward comes from.  We aren't speeding around the arena right now but the quality is so much better and I can say that my horse is becoming more fit as a result.

I can now see how the Woody article would apply to any type of good riding.  Really, the riding discipline doesn't matter.  Like you say Dr. Deb "Ignore anyone, any coach, any trainer, any judge, or any system or society says, and learn to listen to the ONE individual whose opinion matters--your horse", is some of the best advice I have ever heard!  When asked who my trainer is in the future I am inclined to say "My horse, Mickey, of course.

If you get a chance, watch Mike Schaffer's Grand Prix ride on his web site.  I have not seen that quality of softness in dressage Grand Prix riding anywhere.  Also, if you by chance start over with your riding, you might want to watch his training videos of his horse "Indeed".  They have helped me tremendously.   And of course, attend the clinics of Ray hunt and others Dr. Deb has mentioned.

I hope this helps.

Good Luck to You,

Pam 

 

 

 

Last edited on Tue Jun 12th, 2007 05:54 pm by Pam

Annie F
Member


Joined: Wed May 2nd, 2007
Location: Princeton, New Jersey USA
Posts: 62
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Jun 12th, 2007 03:20 am
 Quote  Reply 
Dear Name Withheld,

I agree so totally with Pam (and Dr. Deb).  About a year ago I was looking for a trainer, and went to  visit and interview one who was highly recommended, trained many horses to Grand Prix, and had prestigious credentials.  The very first question he asked about my 4 year-old very green horse was "Is he FORWARD?"  When I said he was still hesitent under saddle, he said, "Well, the first thing we can do is you can ride him and I will go behind you with a whip and we will make him go."   Yikes.  No wonder the horses can't relax enough to be "through." 

Watch Mike Schaffer's short videos "Restarting Cameo" and listen to his narration; he wants the young mare, who was made afraid of work by being taught to rush forward on the longe, to be relaxed in her mind and learn that she can go slow and get her balance.  As he works with her, teaching her to step under herself and away from a touch of the whip, he points out that it takes her awhile to learn this, but she is not being evasive or resistant, she is just clumsy.   In the third and last tape in that series, he and a rider back the mare again, and she is not sure what to do, but she is calm and comes to him to ask "is this ok"? and he just reassures her, lets her take her time and take one or two steps at a time, until she gradually becomes more confident and less clumsy under the rider.  It's really fun and thought provoking to watch!

Anyway, I think your horse is luck that at least you asked the question.  Best wishes to both of you!

Annie F

 

 

 

Last edited on Tue Jun 12th, 2007 03:59 am by Annie F

Name Withheld
Guest
 

Joined: 
Location:  
Posts: 
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Jun 12th, 2007 10:55 am
 Quote  Reply 
OK guys, I have to come clean.. I came across this question in a Dressage Magazine.

I thought it was a question that MOST dressage riders should ask. To me riders of horses like this make up a great majority of competition dressage at all levels..

The answer she got in the magazine, I'm sure was not what she wanted to hear and it surprised me.. It was a good reply.. and some of it along the lines of Dr Debs reply.

Sorry Dr Deb for taking up your time, but I enjoyed your answer.  It followed my thought pattens and it was reassuring to know you felt the same way ..

I study dressage with a wonderful classical trainer.  He is so very "natural" but insists hes not!!

I have known for quite a while that our type of horsemanship fits in beautifully with "Good" Classical Dressage..

I just wish more of the competition riders would ask themselves the above question.

Sorry for taking your time .. and apologies to all.  (Good answers by the way, I must check out those videos ) :-)

PS>   the question and answer was on page 80 of June issue of Dressage Today.

 

Pam
Member


Joined: Wed Mar 21st, 2007
Location: Lafayette, California USA
Posts: 146
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Jun 12th, 2007 06:18 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dear Name Withheld,

Although you came clean in the end, I for one do not appreciate your dishonesty in getting information.  I have learned my lesson in not responding to a person who can't even disclose their name.  So, I thank you for teaching me that lesson.

Wendy
Member
 

Joined: Tue May 8th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 13
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 01:40 am
 Quote  Reply 
Hello everyone,

I am not sure that it is necessary to be quite so hard on people who may be competing in Dressage competitions.  I have spent my share of time doing the same and I view it as a necessary chapter in my learning curve.  There has been discussion here before about choosing good instruction.

I think that everyone probably has a dream of riding a calm, supple and balanced horse.  It is easy to criticise from the ground, but everyone is doing their best either in training or competition.  You can go to any event or gathering and see bad examples of riding and horsemanship, so what?  Does this make us any better? 

I love this forum because it has some deep and insightful dialogue but sometimes it seems to have an undercurrent of snobbery.  We know that this is a better way, but we are only pupils ourselves.  Wouldn't the real challenge be to infiltrate the Dressage movement with the more effective and informed methods promoted by this forum.  Talk is cheap, expecially when you are preaching to the converted.  I think that we need to be seen to be doing things differently and the results will speak for themselves. 

There are some lovely people here who share their knowledge generously, can we just stick to that and forget about bagging the 'others', incognito or otherwise?

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3233
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 06:56 am
 Quote  Reply 
Wendy -- there are some thoughts for you here, after I say what I have to say to "Name Withheld." To you, N.M., I am wondering why you felt any need to withhold your name. I'm with Pam in being rather irritated with you -- why would you feel a need to manipulate me and others into answering? Are you not familiar with this space, and with me? When have I ever been less than forthright in answering, so that you would feel a need to mask your identity?

No....the only reason I can really come up with is that it isn't about how honest or how willing WE have been to answer whatever type of query. Rather, it's about how N.M. feels in her own social milieu....in other words, in all probability, N.M. has been, or has tried to be, a dressage competitor, and, having been emotionally bludgeoned as so many people are in that world, does not feel comfortable or safe in asking a telling question in a forthright way.

And now this is where you enter the picture, Wendy, because you add insult to injury by implying, or actually stating, that we are "snobs." Let me tell you a little bit about what type of "snobs" we actually are.

Yesterday I was sitting around in my favorite local Mexican restaurant having lunch. This is a spot I regularly go to during the hot part of the day. I have been going there so regularly and for so many years that I've gotten to know many of the family who own and run the place.

There is a young fellow, a cousin of theirs, who sometimes comes in there, and whenever he does he is always talking about how he wants to go to college. But his English isn't perfect, and I suspect his grade point average probably isn't, either. He certainly, however, strikes me as somebody capable of the work demanded in college and who deserves to go to college as much as anybody else.

I therefore, when I overhear him from the other table, always speak up and encourage him. And yesterday we got into quite a talk, because he said, "gosh, I've been looking at trying to get in to University of California at Merced, but the tuititon is fourteen thousand dollars a term! I guess that must be a private school." So, I spent the next hour straightening him out on what the differences are between junior colleges, Universities with the word "state" in their name, Universities with the word "tech" in their name, Universities that are "of California" or "of Michigan", etc., and private schools. And talking to him about what he is really interested in, what going to college is going to require (apart from money), and how to get the money.

For all of which he was very grateful. So much so, that at the end of our conversation, nearly with tears in his eyes he said to me, "you know, the thing that I think holds me back more than anything else is that when I go home every night to my mother's house, and there are my in-laws and some of their friends, a lot of them say to me, 'well, we already know you are the type of person who is going to college. We can tell, because you're acting like such a snob.' " And he said, "I think they are very threatened by my wanting to go to school, and I can't figure out why."

And I said to him, "you're right. They are threatened. But I don't think you have to care very much about why they are threatened -- that's their problem. But if you listen to them, I agree that is going to hold you back bigtime. So amigo, you need to make some new friends. You change friends -- but you hold onto those values that tell you that a college education is the right way to go."

Now this is, as I perceive it, directly analogous to our situation here. I, and the Institute, hold a certain set of values. Among those things we hold in high esteem are independent observation and judgement; more care for the horse than for our ambitions involving the horse; correct and clear understanding of anatomy and biomechanics relevant to riding; and knowledge and insight which teach us that softness, willingness, harmony, and joy are the primary goals in riding and training.

These are the ideals that we hold. I hold them, and I will not let go of them, nor cease to speak of them, nor cease to attempt to teach other people who want to know, how to have that very same softness and willingness -- without the bloody spur, or anything even approaching it.

And to hold and even to trumpet these values is not to be a snob.

But, as my conversation with my Mexican friend shows, holding high values IS to be a "snob" in the ears of the defensive. Wendy, what are YOU defending? For there is nothing to defend. Nobody made you, nor anyone else, the official Defender of Dressage -- so you can just drop that part, get off that train. There is nothing to defend, because Dressage as it is today constituted and practiced in the majority, is both morally and practically indefensable.

The same may be said, also, I will add, for every other competitive discipline or activity involving horses: NONE of them is defensible, ALL of them are flawed to the core, and ALL of them produce frequent examples of ignorance and abuse both subtle and blatant.

So Wendy, if you or somebody else wants to go show or compete -- in any division, you name it -- it's none of my business and I have no inclination to make it my business. But don't figure on finding me or anybody else who knows better taking that game seriously, or looking to the show, the racetrack, or the competition milieu, whether that be local or Olympic, to provide any type of high or laudable standard.

Sincerely -- Dr. Deb

 

Pam
Member


Joined: Wed Mar 21st, 2007
Location: Lafayette, California USA
Posts: 146
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 08:49 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Amen!!!  Dr. Deb

Wendy
Member
 

Joined: Tue May 8th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 13
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 11:14 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dear Dr Deb,

I absolutely agree with you regarding the competition.  I work on horses that have been subjected to the abuse of these competitions.  In order to get good results I have to be able to get into the 'heart' of the horse so that we can work together.  Sometimes there are horses with huge hearts that have been absolutely broken to bits in their endeavour to do what is being asked of them.  These are the horses that have kept going in spite of physical injuries until they just cannot do it any more.  Often only then will the rider notice a problem.  Aren't the riders a victim of the system too?

I can hear very clearly when you say that competing is bad.  You could say that anything to do with horses that is not done properly is bad.  But where does someone go if they want to learn to do it better.  Where I come from they might read some dressage books and think that it sounds idyllic - so who do they hunt out?  The dressage club.  The dressage books may be the same ones that you advocate, so can't they be forgiven for thinking that the dressage club would be promoting these methods?  I'm certainly not a self appointed ambassador of dressage competition.

I try to promote better ways.  It is always for the sake of the horse.  I don't like to see how bodywork has become a growth industry.  In order to teach people about alternative methods of riding and keeping their horses sound you also need to gain their respect. I see that being 'out and about' sometimes, trail riding or having a play in a dressage arena can contribute to that. Otherwise the only role models they have are the competitors who are winning. 

Everyone doesn't come to these methods by the same path.  A 'dressage' competitor looking for a better way might relate to Michael Schaffer and stumble upon the path that way - whereas they may not comprehend a more 'western' approach.

So like the boy in the Mexican resturant, who lives in one world but would like to venture into another, we need to be welcoming and open.  As you were with him.  We wouldn't condemn him outright because of where he came from, but we could admire his desire to strive for personal growth.  It is not easy to discard old ways of doing things.  It is not easy learning new and different ways of doing things either.  As a group of people we can support each other though.

 

Kallisti
Member


Joined: Sat Jun 2nd, 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 38
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2007 05:17 am
 Quote  Reply 
Yay, warm fuzzies from everyone - I'm hearing 'inclusionist' logic, rather than 'exclusionist' points of view.

Fwiw I have enjoyed this forum because it's open and inviting for lots of types of thought. Obviously it has 'an angle' - we're posting on a private forum (private property by internet standards!) which Deb has kindly opened for us to ask questions in relation to a certain way of doing things.

I just sat an exam today, in which we discussed different types of knowledge (very academic) but I think it has relevance here. Firstly, in all knowledge theory we were exposed to, there was an attempt to diferentiate between knowledge and information. The general consensus I have gained is that information relates to objective facts and is an 'external thing', whereas knowledge is more to do with what's on the inside and a subjective understanding of information.

We discussed three types of knowledge, namely Tacit, Implicit and Explicit. The test for each is simple:
  1. Can the knowledge be expressed, written down or described to someone? If it cannot, it's implicit in our being. For example 'feel' is probably close to a horsey analogy of this type of knowledge. It's very hard to describe in some sense, yet we can all get a picture of it through reading or instruction - Like riding a bike, it takes a bit of learning. If the knowledge *can* be expressed to someone else, we move to the final question:
  2. Has the knowledge been expressed? If it hasn't, then it's implicit, it's in our heads but not written down aloud for everyone to see. If it has been written down then it's explicit -  like the books, videos and various texts Dr Deb kindly shares with us here and through the Institute.
Now for getting to the point, I'm rambling a little. What I'm most fond of here is that members and posters all try their best to contribute to expressing their knowledge to others. They don't have a code of ethical conduct laid down other than their own personal morals, (except a few forum rules for clarity) which seem to be of upmost standard.

So by sharing this information with people, in an open-air forum, the whole gearing seems to be to me one of promoting inclusion of everyone who cares to ask - by attempting to express inner most knowledge (tacit feel) in a manner which can be read and used by others. A very noble motive of 'inclusionist' philosophies imho.

Unfortunately you also get balance in seeing 'exclusionist' beliefs come into play, but on the whole I can't deny that I've always seen ESI providing a very high standard of considered, reasonable, knowledge with repeatable results and rational, simple logic. That's not to say it's 'easy', but the philosophy I think is simple. As Deb mentioned above - softness, balance and straightness, which for me means congruency - and that's a topic for a whole 'nother debate.

I'm hearing snobbery as a term to describe exclusion - but I'm not seeing it?

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3233
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2007 08:12 am
 Quote  Reply 
Wendy -- I did not say that competition is bad. I said that nobody should derive their values from anything they see at shows.

It is, rather, for us to develop our values at home or by riding with other people, better than ourselves, who hold high values. If we then go to the show or competition, we import those values with us. To do it the other way is to be lost in the same morass of judgementalism, emotional ups and downs, polar swings of fad and fashion, resentments and angers, and foolish chasing after meaningless prizes that we observe in most people caught up in horse shows and competitions.

So much for clarification as to what was said above. Now, Wendy, here is the application of one of my values. I think you owe me an apology, and not only me, but everybody else who posts here, because in your reply to me above you did not address the main point, e.g., that you added insult to injury by implying, or directly stating, that "there is an undercurrent of snobbery in this Forum."

I have explained that there is no such thing, and that if YOU think there is, then you need to be straightened out. I have posted what should have achieved that, but you have not responded to it. Rather, you have again chastised us for not teaching quite as gently or quite in the style that you would prefer.

Happily, you are not in my riding clinic at this moment, because if you were, I guarantee you that I would in one way or another be calling you into a greater state of honesty with both me and your horse. But, instead, here you are in my Forum, which is a place equally if not more important to me, and I am demanding that you produce in your next post a clear and explicit apology for calling me, and others here, snobs.

You either do that, Wendy, or you will find that henceforth your posts disappear from this space.

I regard this Forum just the same as my classroom, my riding arena during clinics, or my home during a dinner party. In none of these places will insults be tolerated. So we'll hope to hear from you, Wendy, with nothing in your post at all about how you would like to have things, but instead making clear how you have reconsidered of what value to you the discussions which go on here, and my willingness to teach you, have been.

Sincerely -- Dr. Deb

Wendy
Member
 

Joined: Tue May 8th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 13
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Jun 17th, 2007 11:27 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dear Dr Deb,

Please accept my apologies if I have offended you.  I greatly appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge and admire your devotion to teaching a better way for the horse and horseman. 

Regards,

Wendy


 Current time is 10:17 pm




Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez