ESI Q and A Forums Home
 Search       Members   Calendar   Help   Home 
Search by username
Not logged in - Login | Register 

Rising 3 year old. Finding the tight spot?
 Moderated by: DrDeb  
 New Topic   Reply   Print 
AuthorPost
JTB
Member
 

Joined: Thu Aug 11th, 2011
Location:  
Posts: 101
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Oct 5th, 2020 01:40 am
 Quote  Reply 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB8GKhCCnXs

Dear Dr Deb and all,

The attached link should take you to a video of my 3 year old gelding. Taken on the 28th of Sept. I had found him standing in the paddock with dirt all along the off side and very reluctant to move. The video is two days after his skate.

He is much improved now 10 days later but still walks in a milder version of this.

I had our vet look at him three days ago and he has said continue on the bute and keep him confined to the arena, as he improves he can start a bit of exercise. He said nothing broken but very hard to tell as it is high up.

I can see no difference in hip heights or difference in the sacrum bumps.

I have had all the books out and been searching the forum to see if I can narrow down the tight spot he is protecting. I have wondered if he sprained his groin muscles on the near side, as he knuckles down slightly when you ask him to use those muscles.

I am just wanting to be sure I am doing my best in aiding his recovery. Any insight much appreciated.

Best Wishes
Judy and Aldi

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3269
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Oct 5th, 2020 09:50 am
 Quote  Reply 
Judy, it would not surprise me if the horse has either fractured a rib (or two), or else a rib cartilage, i.e. one or more of the long flexible cartilagenous rods that attach the ends of the more posterior bony ribs to the sternum. Fractures of the sternal cartilages are not uncommon, although rarely diagnosed (that is, we know they occur because they are fairly frequent in museum skeletons).

The odd way the horse swings his head off to his right with every other step speaks to me of pain in the torso, and I'd bet money that if you listen closely as he walks, you'll hear him either holding his breath or else making short, sharp inhalations -- just as a person who fractures a rib can hardly stand to breathe until the fracture starts to heal, and has a spasm of pain with each inhalation.

I'm not absolutely clear from your description what happened or what you saw when you first saw him after he injured himself. He apparently fell hard onto one side? The current thinking on fractured rib cartilages is that the horse 'pops' them when bucking hard. Was this gelding fond of good, hard, vigorous intervals of play before the injury?

Goes without saying that you'll not be planning on saddling this dude anytime soon. And even after he heals up, you'll want to take extra care, planning your first session carefully and observing when he's hitting his limit on girthing. If you had already familiarized him with the saddle and girth before this injury, that will be very helpful as giving you a solid basis to work from once it's time to girth him up again.

Keep us appraised of how his healing goes on, and whether the current oddball lameness mutates into some other unusual way of moving. Also whether the vet tells you anything more or different; he or she is right, though, injuries above the stifle or elbow are very difficult to visualize, because even modern XRay machines just don't have the power to "see" through the thickness of the equine torso and back. You might want to palpate -- carefully, don't let him cow kick you if you hit a sore spot -- but feel from the caudal end of the sternum back and see if you can find either a sore area or any type of edematous swelling. -- Cheers -- Dr. Deb


JTB
Member
 

Joined: Thu Aug 11th, 2011
Location:  
Posts: 101
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Oct 5th, 2020 07:22 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Thank you Dr Deb.

When I found him he was all dirty on the off side and grass stained as if he had fallen then slid along. He and his paddock mate do zoom up and down a bit, both can do huge bucks but as he is paddocked with a mare there are no rough gelding games much to his disgust.

He has only had the rope around his middle at this stage. Your observations are much appreciated. I will have a look at his ribs/rib cartilage today, I am suspicious as he didn't like me brushing his rib cage on either side and he is very tight in the muscles above the spine above his rib cage.

Thankfully he doesn't look this bad now just walks in a less extreme version of this.

Will keep you posted. Best wishes Judy

JTB
Member
 

Joined: Thu Aug 11th, 2011
Location:  
Posts: 101
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Jan 2nd, 2021 08:21 am
 Quote  Reply 
Hi All,
Am pleased to report my gelding is looking great. We are proceeding with our ground work and I will be very mindful of small things when we introduce the saddle.
Many Thanks Judy :-)

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3269
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Jan 2nd, 2021 09:19 am
 Quote  Reply 
Judy -- great to hear this. Have you heard from Jenny P. lately? I've been EMailing and getting no answer. Would you give her a buzz on the telephone and ask her to look at her EMail? Thanks much, and happy new year to you & yours. -- Dr. Deb

JTB
Member
 

Joined: Thu Aug 11th, 2011
Location:  
Posts: 101
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Jan 2nd, 2021 06:35 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Jenny is well and has been flat out helping horses in need. I will contact her and let her know you have been emailing, and tell her to check her inbox. :-)

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3269
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Jan 4th, 2021 10:34 am
 Quote  Reply 
Dear Judy: Thanks for contacting Jenny -- she did call me today and we got caught up on all the news. And yes, I was a bit worried about her since she hadn't replied to EMails but you are right, she is very busy with several lame horses. Also, I did hear from two NZ Standardbred people, one who has considerable experience and both are willing to help out with photos and reports. This will make a great article and hopefully convince some people to try a "select" Standardbred -- "select" because not all of them are suitable but of those that are, they're generally very good horses. My aim is to help people learn to distinguish which ones to take. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

JTB
Member
 

Joined: Thu Aug 11th, 2011
Location:  
Posts: 101
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 06:15 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Hi Dr Deb,

That is great news all round. :-)

I have been re reading Fostering a Long Life and have a tooth question. My herd is ageing, the youngest Shetland is 20 and the oldest now 28.

They all had their teeth done last October. Two of the ponies had loose teeth that just came out by hand. One had a deepish peridontal pocket, and had been packing food so we decided to come back and extract that, of course she ended up having the one next to this out as the molar spreaders loosened that tooth!!(probably wasn't up to much anyway) Anyway she is much happier with the tooth out and eating well.

Yesterday a different dentist was here checking on a peridontal pocket and discovered a wiggly tooth, not the one with the pocket. It took quite a while to extract. Should the pony have had local around the tooth that is being extracted? Rather than rely on the sedation?

How wiggly is too wiggly?! I know they need time to learn to quid if they know their teeth are not up to much. Neither of these mares do this yet.

Any guidance you have regarding tooth care of the aged will be much appreciated.

Best Wishes
Judy

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3269
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Jan 10th, 2021 09:35 am
 Quote  Reply 
Judy: Sedation provides little to nothing in the way of PAIN relief.

The 'sedatives' given to horses for the purpose of equine dentistry are actually muscle paralyzers. They temporarily paralyze the horse's large muscles so that he will have great difficulty pulling back, rearing up, striking, lunging, biting or kicking the dentist or handlers.

What the horse experiences during the extraction of a viable tooth -- a tooth with considerable reserve crown down into the socket, and viable circulation and ennervation -- is exactly the same as what people experienced in having rotten teeth pulled in the day and age before ether, i.e. before the late 19th century. With the added fiat that, essentially, the horse is also strapped down into the chair.

If that makes you feel distressed, I'm sorry; but there is almost no other choice. Yes, there are some ways that a veterinarian can actually give pain relief; one is general anaesthesia, expensive and always somewhat dangerous; another is new techniques for numbing the nerves by using infusions through the infraorbital foramen -- but those are only effective on some of the upper teeth. Lidocaine injections into the surrounding gums are not effective on horses because the extraction, if it is not of a geriatric tooth, is going to cause pain so far deep into the jaws that injecting the gums is useless. Human tooth sockets are much much shallower. And if the extraction is of a geriatric tooth with very little reserve crown left, generally speaking the circulation to the roots has already closed off or nearly so, the nerve to the tooth has shrunk, the periapical foraminae have closed down to pinprick sized, and the tooth is sitting so shallowly in the socket that it takes almost nothing and hurts the horse very little (no more than pulling a hangnail) to take it out. If the dentist had not pulled out such a tooth, the horse would very likely shortly thereafter have spat it out on his own anyway.

So: You cannot leave bad teeth in there. Ethical equine dental practitioners will try every way possible to avoid pulling viable teeth. So the question is -- just as you asked -- how wiggly is wiggly enough?

The answer to that is: wiggly enough to rock back and forth when the horse draws the mandible across the upper arcades during the chewing stroke. If the chewing stroke would move the tooth more than a very tiny amount then it is a candidate for extraction.

The second question is: did you ask the dentist to give you the tooth after it was extracted? You should always keep the extracted teeth. If you did keep it, how long is the reserve crown in actuality? Or can you provide me a photo of it? The point is to determine how geriatric the extracted tooth actually was. This will allow us to determine whether the practitioner is ethical or just out to find something wrong that he can charge you money for, so as to make his trip to your farm worth his while.

At ages 20 or 28 (you don't say which pony had the tooth extracted), I'm betting the guy was ethical and that the tooth was geriatric. Sometimes aged teeth get 'welded' into the alveolus with cementum deposited because the tooth had already been rocking with chewing. This could make the extraction more difficult; or because of the position of the tooth in the jaw (extreme rear is more difficult, especially on small ponies); or because the tooth was impacted, i.e. jammed up or wedged between other teeth; or just because the dentist was taking good care, going slow, and trying to hurt your pony as little as possible.

Let me know regarding how much reserve crown there actually was on the tooth after it came out. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

JTB
Member
 

Joined: Thu Aug 11th, 2011
Location:  
Posts: 101
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Jan 12th, 2021 01:44 am
 Quote  Reply 
Thank you for the helpful reply, Dr Deb.

Here is a photo of three sets of pulled teeth.
Top of photo is 10 year old Little.

Middle is current 24 year old ponies extracted tooth.

The two bottom near the ruler are last years extractions from a 28 year old pony.

At the rate I am going I can have a heavy necklace.

In the photo the older ponies certainly look short on root!
Kind Regards
Judy

Attachment: IMG_3062.JPG (Downloaded 8 times)

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3269
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Jan 12th, 2021 04:04 am
 Quote  Reply 
Judy, the top tooth is exactly what I would expect to see in a 10 year old horse. Remember you had that tooth extracted because it had cracked, and a cracked tooth MUST be removed or else it will seriously abscess, causing a much bigger set of problems, even death.

The other teeth are from very old horses. Such teeth are said to be 'geriatric' because they have little or no reserve crown remaining. The 'reserve crown' is that portion of the tooth which is between the line where it sat level with the gum, and the constriction at the lower end just above the tubular roots.

The whole of the tooth below where it sat at gumline when it was in the jaw is NOT the 'roots'. The roots are only that part which is below the constriction; two, three, or sometimes four separate little tubes located more or less at the corners of the tooth.

When the tooth is still relatively young, as in your 10 year old, you will see that the openings at the tips or lower ends of these tubes are wide open. That's because the circulation and ennervation enter the tooth through these openings and the circulation and nerves were still big, plump, and healthy when the tooth had to be extracted. In geriatric horses, the tubes will shrink at the distal ends so that the openings reduce to pinprick-sized. This is because the circulation to the tooth through those 'periapical foraminae' had already begun to die, or has died completely, some time before the tooth was extracted.

So we know from this that your dentist is perfectly ethical; he is not pulling teeth unnecessarily. The photos do show some hypercementation, but I think mainly it was tooth position and his just taking good care that made the extraction rather slow. -- Dr. Deb

JTB
Member
 

Joined: Thu Aug 11th, 2011
Location:  
Posts: 101
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Jan 12th, 2021 06:33 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Thank you Dr Deb, once again you clear up my understanding of the Equine tooth. I am relieved to know the vets are taking good care of my herds teeth.
Kind Regards Judy


 Current time is 03:28 pm




Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez