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mustanglover
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Hi Dr Bennett!

I had a few questions that I figured you would be the expert on.

First-I would love to purchase your book Conquerors, but noted it was out of print. Would you have a suggested place to purchase?

Second-I recently read a book on mustangs "America's Wild Horses: The History of the Western Mustang" by Stephen Price. In it, Mr Price noted that very soon after discovering the new world the Spanish king forbade further exports of the spanish jennet, and instead large numbers of north african barbs were imported. I was wanted to understand if there was some notion of total volume of each and how contributed to our mustangs. Ive noted many of our mustangs will dna test as spanish breeds, but in some hmas, they instead test as oriental breeds (turkoman, teke, caspian) which Ive wondered if could be pointing to primary barb, rather than spanish heritage.

Last-the spanish horses, barb horses and many mustangs have a very different shaped butt-where the tail is low set, the hip is more shallow and the legs seem a little more set under the body. I was curious as to what advantages/disadvantages the "spanish butt" provides to horses.

Many thanks!

(I have two mustangs, thus my interest above)

DrDeb
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Dear Mustang Lover: Happy to give you some pointers on this. First, "Conquerors" is not out of print; what you've been doing is shopping in the wrong place, that is to say, at amazon.com. They're out of them because the supplier who sold them their inventory died some years ago and will not be supplying them any more. And I will not do business with amazon.

So you'll be stuck with buying the book from me at a price far lower than what amazon would have charged you. Gee ain't that too bad? Just go to our main website at http://www.equinestudies.org and click on "Bookstore" and there you will find the convenient PayPal button.

Second: I have no idea where you got the idea that North African barbs were imported during the Conquest. To my knowledge, this is not true at all, and there are no such records. Yes, King Charles V of Spain did stop shipping horses to the New World after a certain point between 50 and 100 years after the conquest of Mexico and the countries of Central America, Peru, and Argentina. This would be beginning in about 1540. However, he did not forbid export of any horses from Spain -- only the better quality ones such as the Cartujenos. And soldiers embarking on the various conquest ships actually preferred the sorriest nags they could obtain, for the reason that many died on the voyages and they did not want to risk too much of their allotment of money to supply themselves with horses which had only a 50% chance of arriving. Further, after about 1540 the horses that had arrived earlier, i.e. especially after 1519 (the conquest of Mexico) did so well and propagated so successfully that there was no need for further importation. Various Spanish military, religious, and government officials in the New World repeatedly wrote to the King to say so. This was true everywhere, by the way; the same thing happened about 100 years later in eastern Canada, where the Acadian officials wrote to the King of France to say 'we don't need you to send us any more horses'.

The bottom line on this is: the whole argument for importing North African barbs would be a scarcity of horses that never existed. The truth is, as soon as horses hit the grasslands of Cuernavaca, the 'Mustang desert' in what is now far southwestern Texas, the highlands of Nicaragua, the more temperate areas of Colombia and Peru, and finally the Great Plains of America and Canada -- the population exploded and no more European importations were needed.

There were, indeed, a few European importations after circa 1540, exclusively to the wealthiest conqueror/landowners, and these were of the very best, i.e. Cartujenos and the like, because these New World hidalgos and patrones -- often people with titles -- wanted to breed something a cut above what by that time was the common beast of Andalucia in its various Caribbean and North, Central, and South American regional forms.

So, for the umpteenth time in this Forum let me repeat: there are no Barbs in the Americas and never have been any. Again, I have no idea where you got the idea that DNA testing classifies any mustang herds or individuals as 'caspians' or 'barbs' or whatnot -- I have to believe this is totally bogus unless you can inform me of the exact published scientific study.

As to conformation: Many an Iberian horse has the pinched-looking, steep croup that you describe as a 'Spanish butt'. And many of the descendants of the cheapest sort of Andaluceno, which came to the New World as our founding population, continue to have that butt. This would include not only many North American mustangs but also many paso horses (can be found in horses from all four countries that breed pasos: Cuba, Puerto Rico, Colombia and Peru; however, most common in Puerto Rico as being the most rural and also the most economically disadvantaged of these territories). Gaited and mixy-gaited horses of Iberian descent, which have this conformation, continue also to be bred and to self-propagate in the back-country areas of every country of the New World which ever received them, i.e. for example in the high valleys or 'quebradas' of Chile and Peru, and in the montane areas of Nicaragua, San Salvador, and Costa Rica. The term used in Spanish for these horses is 'petizos', which means 'small scrubby back-country horse.'

So you'd be better off asking, when you have a mustang or other horse of Iberian descent, why it may NOT have this sort of conformation. And the answer to this is one of two things: either it really is not of Iberian descent; or it is of Iberian descent but has at some period after about 1540 become mixed with horses of Anglo or Canadian ancestry. These are extremely common in our mustang herds; I even had a recent inquiry (published in Letters to the Editor in EQUUS Magazine) from a woman whose mustang DNA tested to be largely Friesian. And the reason for this appears to be that it is in fact mostly Friesian. This is what happens when fashions in bred-up horses come and go: the latest fad for horses with a lot of hair (mane, tail, and fetlocks) is now passe and guess where the unwanted colt goes. Likewise, and far more frequently, with unwanted/excess Quarter Horses, and in California, with escaped and/or unwanted Morgans imported by the Miller & Lux outfit (at one time the largest ranch in the world) -- Miller & Lux bred Morgan X Mustang for use by their cowboys, and at this time that's the main composition of the California herds managed by the BLM. And yet, please note, they are all officially 'mustangs', little 'm', because the word merely means feral horses which run on the back purlieus of private ranches or on land managed by the BLM. Phil Sponenberg and I both pointed out to the lady with the half-Friesian that there is no guarantee made at any BLM auction that the horse you purchase there is Iberian; only that it is a 'mustang' that came off a range managed by the BLM.

Lastly, let me suggest that you fill out some of your COVID-generated free time by going over to our main website at the address given above, click on "Knowledge Base", and read the several free downloadable .pdf's there which are concerned with the origins of the Arabian, Mustang, and Barb. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Kuhaylan Heify
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mustanglover: Turkoman Capsian and akhel tekes genetic markers showed up because they all descend from the anscestral hotblood. You are correct about arabs being in the same family- they too came from horses descended from the anscestral hotblood. Complicating this picture was of course the history of who brought what to Spain and when they did so. In addition there was the disinclination of the Modern Spanish to tell the truth about their stock. Nationalism extended down to the point that they insist there is no arabian blood in the modern Andalusian and Lusitano. For a really good photographic example of a mare with a peaky pointy but and a steep angle to boot take a look at a gray mare on the Daughters of the wind site . She's owned on shares by a native Lebanese and a Tahawy Bedouin. With her steeply angled hindquarters she cold easily tuck her butt. She's a real desert bred and about as Asil as Asil can get. She looks like the common conception of a Barb. The two breeds can't be that far apart genetically if they produce animals as alike as they do.
best
Bruce Peek

DrDeb
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Bruce: You are full of misinformation this time.

(1) There is no such thing as an 'ancestral hotblood'. There is no such thing as 'hot blood'. There IS such a thing as the several subspecies of Equus caballus from which domestic horses all trace their ancestry: Refer please to Knowledge Base at http://www.equinestudies.org and read my papers concerning the zoogeography of horses just before the time of their domestication; and also the paper concerning the origin of Mustangs, Barbs, and Arabians. LOOK AT THE MAPS!

(2) The modern Spanish are indeed telling the truth concerning the ancestry of their breeds. There is almost zero asil Arabian in the modern Iberian breeds (the exception to this being where it is openly acknowledged, as with Arabian X Andalusian). What little asil ancestry there is in the Andalusian and Lusitano came in through 18th century infusions of Thoroughbred, which contains a tiny amount of asil Arabian. Thoroughbred ancestry is much more prominent in the Lusitano than in some strains of Andalusian, i.e. see those bred by the Domecq family and the Cartujenos. Refer please to the earlier articles which I previously asked you to read, from the EQUUS Magazine series, which detail the origins of the Thoroughbred horse; wherein you will read that the Darley "Arabian" and the Godolphin "Arabian" had little to no asil Arabian ancestry, and all the many Arabian-sounding names to be seen in early TB pedigrees are bogus, monikers given the horses for the purpose of being able to command much higher stud fees. This is also true in Colonial America, i.e. George Washington's white horse is not an Arabian or even a half-Arabian, but was called such at the time. See my most recent contributions to the breed history series in EQUUS concerning the origin and history of the American Standardbred if you want to read details on the earliest Arabian imports to the U.S., i.e. the half-dozen real asil stallions who came to these shores prior to the World Columbian Exposition of 1893.

(3) Indeed the asil Arabian and the Barb are not very far apart genetically; all of the many regional breeds I mention in the next paragraphs below are relatively closely related. It is also true that certain strains of asil Arabian -- those which are bred specifically for racing -- sometimes have steep pelvic angles and steep croups; certainly not the near-horizontal croup seen in American-bred Arabians, nor even the very beautiful moderate angulation (and greater breadth of body) seen in the best of Abbas Pasha's horses. Surely you know about the different asil strains since your online moniker is one of them?

It's important then to be perfectly clear concerning what 'asil' means. Asil horses are those traditionally bred by certain Bedouin families who live or hold water rights to land in western Iran, southern Turkey, and Syria and who seasonally migrate into and out of the Arabian Peninsula. Since the Muslim Conquest, asil horses have also also been bred in Egypt. The Bedouin families who breed these horses will not cross them with any others.

However, this makes almost an eyelash of difference, for there are many other strains in the same region, particularly eastern Turkey, northeastern Iran, northern Iraq, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, the area about the southern end of the Caspian Sea, and eastward along the old Silk Road, which partake 99% of the same ancestry as the asil Arabian. Some look rather distinctive because, in parallel fashion to the Bedouin asil breeders' penchant for selecting racing vs. travelling horses, they too are selected for different specific uses and/or influenced by a certain amount of inbreeding thanks to lack of contact with other tribes, or an aversion to breeding to the horses of an enemy tribe. Likewise, related strains to the west include the Barb of North Africa and the ancient Egyptian strain which may be seen in the tomb paintings -- this horse is often said to be Arabian but really cannot be called that because it is far too early (the Arabian begins at earliest with the rise of Islam in the 7th century A.D.; the tomb paintings are two thousand or more years old).

My work on the origin of dog breeds has shown the exact same pattern; all the tribes of the Middle East and the Western Silk Road, plus Egypt, breed some sort of Afghan-Saluki-Sloughi. These are dogs of distinction but not of registry; as with the horses, there are no papers, but strong family and tribal traditions which are passed down orally; and they are bred for various uses including gazelle hunting, deer hunting, or chasing hares, and thus they vary to a degree in conformation and size. My point being: you must maintain a broader perspective than most American breed fanciers do concerning the word "close" in the term "closely related".

You see, Bruce: getting a correct picture of horse breeding in the Middle East requires knowledge in two essential areas:

(1) Detailed knowledge of geography
(2) Correct concept of the placement in time of significant migration/conquest events.

It is an outstanding feature of the many very amateurish, or sometimes also very biased, breed histories that we may read in magazines or on the Internet (including Wikipedia) that they mix up the timing of events, conflate events, lack regional perspective in the scope of the word "close", and misunderstand the impact and meaning of the migration or displacement of human population groups.

For where people go, there also go their horses; and the horses do not care when they arrive in a new area what other kind of horse they may breed to or be bred to. -- Dr. Deb

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Mustang Lover You mentioned you worked at an arab farm that had Crabbet horses that were stockier than some of the lines of arabs bred now. Well there are very very few straight Crabbet breeders here in the U.S. There really never have been many at all. Most all of what U.S. arab fanciers term Crabbets are blends of Davenport, Columbian exposition and old egyptian( not Babson) with a smidgen of early Spanish- Draper horses along with the odd Saudi Sunshine of Albert Harris and Mirage who hailed from Iraq, thrown in. In short a slightly outcrossed CMK which was the formula that made up the old Hyannis Cattle Company horses much prized by endurance riders. The later Hyannis horses were outcrossed to Polish- Witez 2, Zarife an egyptian cowhorse, and even best of all 240 Kuhaylan 8-5 an asil Babolna purebred mare stolen and brought to the U.S. in the " Patton importatioon." Theres a gal here in Oregon who has a tail female line Muniqi stallion with multiple crosses to each of the three just mentioned, He's a Tevis and a couple of other 100 mile ride finisher.
Interesting film on the link of the Barb horses. The countryside they were filmed in looks like west Texas which to me looks like most of Saudi Arabia. The sweeping sand dunes geography of Saudi Arabia is only found in the Rub Al Khali and parts of the Nejd and Nafud deserts which after the annual monsoon- yes monsoon turns into some of the best grazing land in the world. Which is why the Aneza bedouin took it over from the Banu Lam and Tai bedouins in the 16-to 1700s. This was right after the current strain system of horse breeding was developed by the Banu Lam and Tai( mostly) to keep track of what was asil. This is in the historical record of the Ali Pasha Sharif manuscript parts of which have been confirmed by Historian Edouard Al Dahda with various Bedouin tribal historians. You see part of the problem- nay the biggest problem with American and Western european horse people has been the simple one of language and not understanding the culture of the bedouin social system. Native speakers who can ,' bridge,' the information gap are starting to step into the question as the Middle East is starting to become more sure of itself vis a vis the west and western cartoonish ideas of arab culture are being replaced by reality.
best
Bruce Peek ps several of those Barb looked like very nice movers!

Kuhaylan Heify
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Dr. Deb Is it ok put in another post? I ran across a report called the Paulick report which followed up on your mentor Alexander Mackay Smiths hypothesis that there is hardly any arabian in the Thoroughbreds. The report essentially confirms his ideas. It in turn links to Genome diversity and the origin of the Arabian horse which found that 5 of 10 racing arabian stallions traced directly back to Byerly Turk through the y Chromosome. I recall you had mentioned several times that most Thoroughbreds were getting way inbred these days and that there were dwindling amounts of Godolphin and Byerly Turk ancestry. Maybe part of the answer would be for the Thoroughbred breeders to get the French arabian breeders to tell them which Thoroughbred stallion they used to sneak Thoroughbred blood into their,' racing,' arabians.
The study goes on to say that there is now so much Thoroughbred blood in,'racing arabians'near full length chromosomes appear to originate from Thoroughbreds.
Food for thought
best
Bruce Peek

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Bruce, if you would actually read what I have previously told you to read, you would have a better chance of getting your facts straight, and also of asking better questions (i.e., questions that have not already been answered by the materials I told you to read).

Yes, I have repeatedly mentioned in articles in EQUUS Magazine that racing bloodlines of the Thoroughbred are today highly, and even dangerously, inbred.

I did NOT say that this reflected "diminishing amounts of Godolphin and Byerly Turk blood." What it reflects instead is the extreme over-use of the single stallion Phalaris born early in the 20th century in Italy. Yes, Phalaris is a horse of the Eclipse division of the breed, but the Eclipse division of the breed had already become predominant before Phalaris' time, its ascendancy being based primarily upon the change of selective conditions which occurred in the late 19th century with the replacement of heat racing by so-called "classic distance" futurities. The contributions of both the Godolphin and Byerly stallions continue to be well represented in TB broodmares.

Furthermore Bruce, you need to drop your several conspiracy theories, because you are slandering innocent people who have a great deal more experience and knowledge than you do yourself. As I said in my previous post, Andalusian breeders have not lied about their horses' ancestry as you accuse them of doing. And here I must add, that French Arabian breeders have not "sneaked" TB blood into their Arabian racehorses. This slander has also been said of the Russian breeders from the Tersk stud, who produced horses such as Priboj and Arax, which do not look like Raffles or Bazy Tankersley's Crabbet-breds, much less the sort of horses which are now winning in American Arabian halter classes.

Mustanglover gave a description of "the ugliest Arabian horse he ever saw", describing an animal with a rather long back, a long thin neck carried upright, a long head without dish, and long ears -- and his conclusion was that the animal must have been part-Barb or in some other way not a purebred. My advice to you both would be to go look at Edward Troye's paintings of A. Keene Richards and Mokhladi, vs. the portrait of the other stallion he imported from Syria, Massoud. Mokhladi is a tribal-bred racehorse exactly like the one described as 'ugly' and 'off type' by Mustanglover; Massoud is a much more compact and round-bodied animal who conforms in type to your online moniker, Bruce. Both horses are as purebred and pure-in-strain as Arabian horses ever get. For "lack of dish" in extremely high-quality asil Arabians, you might also go look at pictures of the Crabbet-bred Mesaoud and his imported son *Astraled and *Astraled's son Gulastra. I have also pointed out in print many times the excellent gray horse bred by Abbas Pasha I, and you might also go look at U.S. Grant's imported *Leopard. Mustanglover's failure to recognize the animal he saw as a purebred reflects his lack of ability to recognize that the tribes who breed Arabians in the Middle East select for different physical types and that there is an array or spectrum of physical types, all of which are purebreds. Mustanglover's posts reflect not only ignorance but the kind of petty overall concept of Arabian "type" that characterizes many horse fanciers in America.

I have deleted most of Mustang Lover's posts above because he or she continues to insist upon, and promote the idea, that there is Barb ancestry in the American mustang. I will not have this Forum, which is my classroom, used as a platform for the spreading of misinformation. Mustang Lover had the opportunity to express his or her views in their initial post/query, which I have not deleted, and I answered this fully and definitively, referring to both published genetic studies and historical records. "Opinion" is not welcome here when it isn't even really "opinion" but simply the poster's pet theory which they will not let go of even when they are given the correct information. Mustanglover seems to believe in the Trump White House operating principle, that if misinformation is repeated often enough it will become fact. Got news for you: it won't, no matter how much you might wish it.

And Bruce I would have you pay attention to this. It is unhelpful to everyone when you only halfway pay attention to the reading material suggested, and then because of that you come back and mis-quote me. Please be more careful in future. -- Dr. Deb

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I wasn't quoting you Deb. I was generally characterizing what you told us during discussions in your anatomy class when talk turned to Thoroughbreds and their lack of genetic diversity. I learned how to quote sources long ago as a News Reporter . An example would be Acting Homeland Security Director Chad Wolfe speaking for the Trump Administration claimed the Portland Federal Courthouse demonstrators were led and controlled by Rose City Antifa. However OPB Reporter Jonathon Levinson said," the demonstrators were largely non violent and were led by African American Black Lives Matter organizers." As for arab blood being in Barbs and Spanish breds I'll go with Occams razor on this one. As for Conspiracy Theories I have none. Zip. Nadda. What I do have is the ability to read and write and the ability to observe and describe a business plan when I see one. Like the refusal of the Egyptian Arabian stud book and WAHO to register the several hundred Desert breds owned by the Tahawy up until the late 70's and early 80's because granting them equal status along with EAO horses would have given them market competition. So now what we are seeing are many overly refined Egyptian horses and according to Genome diversity and the origin of the arabian horse the most inbred of the groups of horses they studied. Which for the record encompassed 378 horses from the middle east, europe, america and australia. The result was that having no market value the Tahawy stopped breeding asil horses on a significant scale. Three years ago there were 11 Tahawy asils. Now there are 9.
The Priboj Arax sire lines came from Kuhaylan Ajuze imported to Babolna by then Colonel Mikeal Haddad. A lot of the lines descendants imported to this country like Pietuszock( sp) and Topol his full brother who stood at the Trakhener stud after it ended up in Poland, were top notch horses. Because a lot of the Tersk stock incorporated horses based on Sangusko stock which were from 66% to 85% arabian according to the Imperial Russian studbook, their descendants ended up a little more arab due to the Wentworh stock the Russians purchased and the Egyptians Nil and Aswan gifted by the EAO. It must also be mentioned that the early French horses used at Tersk were brought in in the 30's before the French purist movement arose. The French purist movement incorporated some Asil Tunisian and Algerian horses too. You can find photos of some French Asils several generations back in the all breed pedigree index for many of the currently fashionable French arabian racing stallions. You will if you look closely observe a changing in type of the horses as they get closer to the modern type.
best
Bruce Peek

DrDeb
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Yes, Bruce, you were quoting me -- or rather mis-quoting. If you were a newspaper reporter at one time before you became a bus driver, then you must know of course that YOUR paraphrase of what YOU THOUGHT you heard me say in class is just as much a mis-quotation and mis-representation as if you had appeared to quote me directly, i.e. verbatim, by putting quotation marks around something and then attributing it to me.

You might be curious as to why this bothers me -- the answer is, because it frequently happens not only to me but to every authority, scholar, government official, or whoever is being interviewed. You sat in class there Bruce, and you heard me say that racing-bred TB's are getting dangerously inbred to an Eclipse-line horse; and you also heard me say that horses descended from Matchem and Herod are, and historically have been, more scarce. And from that YOU CONCLUDED IN YOUR OWN MIND that I said "there are diminishing amounts of Godolphin and Byerley Turk blood." You see how that little mental shift works to make you blind to the fact that you have injected your own thinking and then attributed that to me?

The other reason it is troublesome is that, once anyone says ANYTHING -- anything whatsoever! on the Internet, it can be picked up and repeated zillions of times by who-knows-who and for who-knows-what purposes. Often, people like mustanglover are looking for quotations from authorities to shore up their pet theories, and they have no real ethics as to misquotation or taking statements made by authorities out of context (and also, often I think they simply do not know they are doing this).

I have endless trouble also with people -- not you, Bruce, but others -- who in a similar manner will steal my illustrations. More and more frequently I see bogus copies of my articles from EQUUS Magazine running on the Internet, both text and illustrations -- as if the $25/annual subscription to EQUUS Magazine were not already plenty cheap enough! But you see, when somebody steals one of my illustrations it is exactly the same as if they had "stolen" something I said and twisted it so that it would suit their own purposes. For example recently I had to call down the dogs on some guy purporting to be a "saddle fitter" who was using my illustrations of equine back anatomy and function, and also of the human pelvis (marked up with arrows and pointers which he added). Where we found him using them was in an "educational" (really an advertising) pamphlet designed to benefit one person, that is to say, that individual. Use of someone else's ideas, statements of longer than three sentences, and illlustrations are protected by copyright law for at least 70 years after the creator's death, and taking them without permission, as this fellow did, is illegal and actionable. Happily EQUUS Magazine does maintain a legal staff and when I reminded him of this, he removed the images that he had stolen.

Not without, however, first writing me an insulting letter and telling me what an infantile asshole I must be not to permit the great Mr. so-and-so to use my material without attribution, without permission, and without (by the way) offering any financial compensation. I of course got the same kind of reply from Mustanglover (already deleted, of course) who did not realize that he or she could not really come into this Forum, which is my international classroom, and simply keep repeating an entirely false pet theory.

Now this highlights a curious fact: that people (and there have been many others before mustanglover) who come here saying that they respect me, when they ask their question and then receive advice or some other kind of answer from me which they do not like, inevitably wind up writing me an insulting letter which reveals that they can only respect me as a teacher when I corroborate their ideas. So I ask: who in that situation is the infantile asshole? When mustanglover's teacher told him or her that two and two make four, did mustanglover disbelieve her and then try to refute her? When his history teacher told him that George Washington was the first President of the United States, did mustanglover insist it was Thomas Jefferson? I conclude that a major problem of our society today is the utter inability of many adults to distinguish verifiable fact from opinion.

So Bruce, I've never doubted your ability to look things up or dig up facts through researching. What I've asked you to do is to not turn into somebody like mustanglover who only half-understands the things he or she writes in about, whether that be the nature of Arabian horses or the content and meaning of parentage tests. I have asked you, Bruce -- as I have also asked every other real student who has ever come to me -- to learn to distinguish well-founded historical research from mere opinion, honest mistakes, and bogus research; and I have asked you to read and quote with a professional level of attention and accuracy. I have also asked you not to doubt or impugn the honesty of breeders, whether they run private farms or are part of a government-run program. Better by far to ASK FIRST -- i.e. "Dr. Deb do you think the French snuck horses in" or (in mustanglover's case) "What do these individual parentage tests actually tell us?"

Cheers -- Dr. Deb


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Deb: Your line drawings are clear enough and useful enough that imo you should market them as reference tools for people to use to evaluate horses they are potentially buying.
If some guy is using your material without paying for it that's theft and you should, take legal action against them.
My journalism background came almost entirely from Broadcasting, both Public Radio and Commercial Radio. Broadcast style books for both AP and UPI both emphasized inverted pyramid construction of stories, with inclusive characterization of statements, followed by an audio actuallity( tape) of the the story protaganist stating their views. The story then goes on to again characterize or paraphrase the protaganists statement. Thus the , tell the listeners what was said, again tell the listener what was said, and tell them again what was said. This is done because most listeners listen to the radio with one ear as they get dressed, eat breakfast get the kids ready for school etc. With
repeating the statement three times there's more of a chance of listeners getting a clear understanding of last nights school board meeting for example.
Working in Broadcasting was fun but I had to work two other jobs to able to afford to work in Radio as the pay was and still is the pits.
best
Bruice Peek




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