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Redmare
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...among other things.

Dr. Deb, I have my student's permission to post photos and ask for your advice on her 16yo TB gelding's feet. This horse is relatively new to her, she bought him in the spring. She is a new horse owner and I am trying to give her the best guidance I can regarding rehabbing this gelding.

This gelding has been losing shoes regularly since she bought him. This most recent episode happened last week when I was demonstrating something for her on a long line - the horse was a on a circle and I noticed he was winging his RF foot. Two circles and one upward transition to canter later and the shoe was gone, removed by nothing more than the torque on the foot when he pushed off it.

I have some concerns about the use of pads and how he is being shod. I see angle issues but realize he came with these so this is was not created by the current farrier. I also see poor hoof quality overall and have concerns about his white line. I am looking for some help from you so I can help my student get this horse's feet rehabbed.

Attachment: RF side view.jpg (Downloaded 160 times)

Redmare
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#2

Attachment: RF rear view.jpg (Downloaded 158 times)

Redmare
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#3

Attachment: RF sole view.jpg (Downloaded 157 times)

Redmare
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#4. Left fore, for comparison, as this one is still shod.

Attachment: LF side view.jpg (Downloaded 157 times)

Redmare
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#5.

Attachment: LF front view.jpg (Downloaded 156 times)

Redmare
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#6.

Attachment: LF rear view.jpg (Downloaded 153 times)

DrDeb
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Redmare, your query catches me out on the road....I'll be back in my office in a few days and will answer you then. Just didn't want you to think I had missed your post. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

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Hi Redmare and Dr Deb,

I hope it is alright to poke my nose in....I have checked out the pictures and there is a lot going on. My first thought is what is this horse eating? Check out the old thread on the digital cushion, as I think that is the one where Pauline Moore has a bit to say about diet and hoof quality. I might have the thread wrong I will see if I can find it. Adam Till and Pauline had an excellent thread a few years back where Adam marked up the hoof pictures so we could see what is going on--unfortunately some add for domain names or some such thing has taken over his excellent pictures.

Very glad the TB and his new owner have come to you so you can help.

Kind Regards Judy

Redmare
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I appreciate you bringing that thread back up, JTB - every time I go through it I pick up new pieces of information.

This gelding is fed a diet of grass hay (mostly first cut, he tends to keep easily) and a small amount of extruded feed twice a day, mostly to get his supplements into him. I admit I don't know what he is on right now - his owner has switched what he was on when she got him to a locally made product that (I think) it supposed to provide balance micro/macro nutrients based on what tends to be available in Vermont soils. Last I knew, she was having trouble getting him to actually eat it.

One of the things I know to be true about most of our state (I am helping another student with her mare's feet as well and she struggles with this) is that our soils tend towards being very high organic matter/clay, so as a rule there tends to be very little real stimulation for the hoof in terms of different surface areas. This also means we tend to have a lot of mud. It definitely wreaks havoc on the feet of horses who are being rehabbed in shoes.

Last edited on Thu Oct 24th, 2019 02:48 pm by Redmare

JTB
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Hi Redmare,

Funny isn't it how we read old threads and still pick up more information, when we thought we had it done and dusted!

I am wondering if anyone can remember a thread-- there were before and after shots of Ollie's hooves when he was trimmed? I might have it confused with Painty's before and after in the Orthopaedic disk but I am sure I am not making it up, perhaps someone can help me find it!

Ugh re mud. We all have our challenges when trying to keep hooves right. Have a great weekend.

Aloha
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Poking my nose in here too . . .
In my case I think it is my MIND that is done and dusted. I forget stuff. No matter how many times I read Dr. Deb's material over and over and over again, I always learn or relearn something. At the very least I will understand something more thoroughly. A little lightbulb comes on. And that is when I finally really remember it.

I am auditing Buck Brannaman this week. Same deal. After several years of watching and learning, I have some little lightbulbs going off and know that I finally am really getting some of what he is saying.

I remember the before and after Ollie feet pictures too. I'm thinking they were in an Equus magazine article a few years ago. Late 2014-2015ish.

We have mud too. Then it freezes. Double ugh.

Last edited on Mon Oct 28th, 2019 07:53 pm by Aloha

Redmare
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Looking forward to Dr. Deb's reply - just putting it out there, Dr. Deb, that if I recall you are in California, so I am hoping you are not being affected by the devastating wildfires in various parts of the state.

DrDeb
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Redmare, my apologies (as usual, it seems) for taking quite a while to get back to you. Your initial inquiry caught me just as I was packing up to leave K.U./Lawrence, where I spent six weeks of blessed productive time doing research with colleagues. Because I have been appointed a Research Associate of the University's Museum of Natural History and Biology department, I have "cabin privileges" out at the Natural History Reserve, where my daily commute time is five seconds or so....you can bet your bottom bootie I look forward to this trip every time I can make it out there.

Then came the long drive back to California, and then I had to go speak at the Pomona Horse Fair....and as soon as I got back from that, I had doctor and dentist appointments to take care of and am currently recovering from a VERY sore jaw due to a tooth abscess. Yowie zowie. However -- at long last we are here.

Or almost here. Somehow on the way between Pomona and back to my office, my graphics tablet disappeared. Maybe I left it in the hotel room, maybe it slid out of my case somewhere on the fairgrounds. I've ordered another one of course, which will get here in a few days, but meanwhile I am unable to make illustrations or mark up photos.

I did, however, download the photos you provided and will re-post them as soon as I can mark them up. I will post them in their correct orientation so that they are easier to view and understand.

What I can do immediately now is to simply say -- the horse's feet are well out of antero-posterior balance, and this is one of the three reasons he keeps losing shoes. The animal is, essentially, duck-footed with grossly delayed breakover. This promotes the chances that he will "take" shoes off by stepping them off with a hind foot.

The second reason this horse loses shoes is that he doesn't have real spectacular wall strength or thickness. This is part of the package today with TB's I am afraid; hard to get away from. In turn this is due to the fact that they are, almost to the last horse, grossly inbred. I would love to see this horse's sire's name and dam's name (you don't have to post the whole pedigree; I can take it from there). But I'm willing to bet you blind that the name "Phalaris" appears over and over again in the extended pedigree.l

The third reason that he loses shoes is that whoever is trimming or shoeing him is over-knifing the sole, or to speak more precisely, they are cutting the connection between the sole and the wall and in doing this they are removing the wax seal which should overlie this connection. This provides an open highway for the organisms which cause white line disease to enter and do their destructive thing, weakening an already not overly strong hoof wall.

I absolutely and utterly hate the shoeing job. Holy crimony. This type of decision is as if the owner and the farrier are trying to solve the problem "from the bottom up", which will never work. The problems have to be solved "from the top down", beginning with a course (which will take anywhere from a year and a half to two years) of successive hoof trims in which the farrier MUST "win" every time, i.e. must trim in such a manner that the hoof stands a little steeper and in a little better balance, not only right after the trim is done, but is still holding up four to six weeks later, when the next trim is to take place. You have to "win" every single time or you get nowhere.

I do not expect this to be understood, however, until I am able to mark up your photos, and that won't happen yet for another few days, until my new graphics tablet arrives. My apologies again for the delay. -- Dr. Deb

Redmare
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Dr. Deb, how unfortunate about your pad and tooth! Hopefully all is healing well and your new pad arrives soon.

Everything you've briefly noted makes sense so far and is also what I noticed - I trim my gelding and our two donkeys. I look forward to more detail and your photo mark-ups.

Redmare
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While we are waiting on Dr. Deb's tablet conundrum - I thought I'd post the following, which may prove helpful or at least part of the discussion.

The gelding is by Cloud Hopping and out of Vision De Luz by El Prado. I see both Northern and Native Dancer is his pedigree, but no Phalaris.

Also, I am trying to get radiographic images of his front feet to load, but I can't seem to get them small enough. Dr. Deb, I might end up having to email these to you.

DrDeb
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Redmare, the only reason you don't see Phalaris in the pedigree is that you haven't looked back far enough. Both Northern Dancer and Native Dancer are intensely inbred to Phalaris, as are some other names you might not recognize. What you have to do is go to allbreedpedigree.com and take every name in the right-hand column of the 5-generation pedigree that displays and click on each and every one. All the names are hotlinks. When you click on one of them, it opens the five-generation pedigree of that horse. You can go on doing this in fact until you get back to Old Bald Peg (1680's).

What you are going to find in all probability is that 50% or more of those horses trace back to Phalaris, so that the total ancestry of the horse you own is heavily Phalaris.

That's how they breed racehorses these days: carelessly. To the point that it is now difficult to find even an old broodmare who is not so bred: so that it is impossible to produce a foal with no Phalaris or even with a low percentage of Phalaris. See my previous articles on this subject in EQUUS Magazine, vis., the one on Secretariat, the one on American Pharoah, and the one on Justify.

And yes, I am STILL having fits getting a tablet that is compatible with my system, so you'll have to continue to wait patiently for that. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Redmare
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Hi Dr. Deb - I am hoping you might have had some better luck with your tablet!

If not (or if you are otherwise busy), no worries, but thought I'd check in.




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