ESI Q and A Forums Home
 Search       Members   Calendar   Help   Home 
Search by username
Not logged in - Login | Register 

TB keeps losing shoes...
 Moderated by: DrDeb  
 New Topic   Reply   Print 
AuthorPost
Redmare
Member
 

Joined: Wed Mar 26th, 2014
Location:  
Posts: 75
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Oct 20th, 2019 09:39 pm
 Quote  Reply 
...among other things.

Dr. Deb, I have my student's permission to post photos and ask for your advice on her 16yo TB gelding's feet. This horse is relatively new to her, she bought him in the spring. She is a new horse owner and I am trying to give her the best guidance I can regarding rehabbing this gelding.

This gelding has been losing shoes regularly since she bought him. This most recent episode happened last week when I was demonstrating something for her on a long line - the horse was a on a circle and I noticed he was winging his RF foot. Two circles and one upward transition to canter later and the shoe was gone, removed by nothing more than the torque on the foot when he pushed off it.

I have some concerns about the use of pads and how he is being shod. I see angle issues but realize he came with these so this is was not created by the current farrier. I also see poor hoof quality overall and have concerns about his white line. I am looking for some help from you so I can help my student get this horse's feet rehabbed.

Attachment: RF side view.jpg (Downloaded 122 times)

Redmare
Member
 

Joined: Wed Mar 26th, 2014
Location:  
Posts: 75
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Oct 20th, 2019 09:40 pm
 Quote  Reply 
#2

Attachment: RF rear view.jpg (Downloaded 120 times)

Redmare
Member
 

Joined: Wed Mar 26th, 2014
Location:  
Posts: 75
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Oct 20th, 2019 09:40 pm
 Quote  Reply 
#3

Attachment: RF sole view.jpg (Downloaded 119 times)

Redmare
Member
 

Joined: Wed Mar 26th, 2014
Location:  
Posts: 75
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Oct 20th, 2019 09:41 pm
 Quote  Reply 
#4. Left fore, for comparison, as this one is still shod.

Attachment: LF side view.jpg (Downloaded 119 times)

Redmare
Member
 

Joined: Wed Mar 26th, 2014
Location:  
Posts: 75
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Oct 20th, 2019 09:41 pm
 Quote  Reply 
#5.

Attachment: LF front view.jpg (Downloaded 118 times)

Redmare
Member
 

Joined: Wed Mar 26th, 2014
Location:  
Posts: 75
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Oct 20th, 2019 09:42 pm
 Quote  Reply 
#6.

Attachment: LF rear view.jpg (Downloaded 116 times)

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3232
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Oct 21st, 2019 09:37 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Redmare, your query catches me out on the road....I'll be back in my office in a few days and will answer you then. Just didn't want you to think I had missed your post. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

JTB
Member
 

Joined: Thu Aug 11th, 2011
Location:  
Posts: 82
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Oct 23rd, 2019 10:49 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Hi Redmare and Dr Deb,

I hope it is alright to poke my nose in....I have checked out the pictures and there is a lot going on. My first thought is what is this horse eating? Check out the old thread on the digital cushion, as I think that is the one where Pauline Moore has a bit to say about diet and hoof quality. I might have the thread wrong I will see if I can find it. Adam Till and Pauline had an excellent thread a few years back where Adam marked up the hoof pictures so we could see what is going on--unfortunately some add for domain names or some such thing has taken over his excellent pictures.

Very glad the TB and his new owner have come to you so you can help.

Kind Regards Judy

Redmare
Member
 

Joined: Wed Mar 26th, 2014
Location:  
Posts: 75
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Oct 24th, 2019 03:47 pm
 Quote  Reply 
I appreciate you bringing that thread back up, JTB - every time I go through it I pick up new pieces of information.

This gelding is fed a diet of grass hay (mostly first cut, he tends to keep easily) and a small amount of extruded feed twice a day, mostly to get his supplements into him. I admit I don't know what he is on right now - his owner has switched what he was on when she got him to a locally made product that (I think) it supposed to provide balance micro/macro nutrients based on what tends to be available in Vermont soils. Last I knew, she was having trouble getting him to actually eat it.

One of the things I know to be true about most of our state (I am helping another student with her mare's feet as well and she struggles with this) is that our soils tend towards being very high organic matter/clay, so as a rule there tends to be very little real stimulation for the hoof in terms of different surface areas. This also means we tend to have a lot of mud. It definitely wreaks havoc on the feet of horses who are being rehabbed in shoes.

Last edited on Thu Oct 24th, 2019 03:48 pm by Redmare

JTB
Member
 

Joined: Thu Aug 11th, 2011
Location:  
Posts: 82
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Oct 26th, 2019 07:28 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Hi Redmare,

Funny isn't it how we read old threads and still pick up more information, when we thought we had it done and dusted!

I am wondering if anyone can remember a thread-- there were before and after shots of Ollie's hooves when he was trimmed? I might have it confused with Painty's before and after in the Orthopaedic disk but I am sure I am not making it up, perhaps someone can help me find it!

Ugh re mud. We all have our challenges when trying to keep hooves right. Have a great weekend.

Aloha
Member
 

Joined: Fri Feb 3rd, 2012
Location:  
Posts: 47
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Oct 28th, 2019 08:51 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Poking my nose in here too . . .
In my case I think it is my MIND that is done and dusted. I forget stuff. No matter how many times I read Dr. Deb's material over and over and over again, I always learn or relearn something. At the very least I will understand something more thoroughly. A little lightbulb comes on. And that is when I finally really remember it.

I am auditing Buck Brannaman this week. Same deal. After several years of watching and learning, I have some little lightbulbs going off and know that I finally am really getting some of what he is saying.

I remember the before and after Ollie feet pictures too. I'm thinking they were in an Equus magazine article a few years ago. Late 2014-2015ish.

We have mud too. Then it freezes. Double ugh.

Last edited on Mon Oct 28th, 2019 08:53 pm by Aloha

Redmare
Member
 

Joined: Wed Mar 26th, 2014
Location:  
Posts: 75
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Oct 29th, 2019 04:06 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Looking forward to Dr. Deb's reply - just putting it out there, Dr. Deb, that if I recall you are in California, so I am hoping you are not being affected by the devastating wildfires in various parts of the state.

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3232
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Nov 17th, 2019 05:16 am
 Quote  Reply 
Redmare, my apologies (as usual, it seems) for taking quite a while to get back to you. Your initial inquiry caught me just as I was packing up to leave K.U./Lawrence, where I spent six weeks of blessed productive time doing research with colleagues. Because I have been appointed a Research Associate of the University's Museum of Natural History and Biology department, I have "cabin privileges" out at the Natural History Reserve, where my daily commute time is five seconds or so....you can bet your bottom bootie I look forward to this trip every time I can make it out there.

Then came the long drive back to California, and then I had to go speak at the Pomona Horse Fair....and as soon as I got back from that, I had doctor and dentist appointments to take care of and am currently recovering from a VERY sore jaw due to a tooth abscess. Yowie zowie. However -- at long last we are here.

Or almost here. Somehow on the way between Pomona and back to my office, my graphics tablet disappeared. Maybe I left it in the hotel room, maybe it slid out of my case somewhere on the fairgrounds. I've ordered another one of course, which will get here in a few days, but meanwhile I am unable to make illustrations or mark up photos.

I did, however, download the photos you provided and will re-post them as soon as I can mark them up. I will post them in their correct orientation so that they are easier to view and understand.

What I can do immediately now is to simply say -- the horse's feet are well out of antero-posterior balance, and this is one of the three reasons he keeps losing shoes. The animal is, essentially, duck-footed with grossly delayed breakover. This promotes the chances that he will "take" shoes off by stepping them off with a hind foot.

The second reason this horse loses shoes is that he doesn't have real spectacular wall strength or thickness. This is part of the package today with TB's I am afraid; hard to get away from. In turn this is due to the fact that they are, almost to the last horse, grossly inbred. I would love to see this horse's sire's name and dam's name (you don't have to post the whole pedigree; I can take it from there). But I'm willing to bet you blind that the name "Phalaris" appears over and over again in the extended pedigree.l

The third reason that he loses shoes is that whoever is trimming or shoeing him is over-knifing the sole, or to speak more precisely, they are cutting the connection between the sole and the wall and in doing this they are removing the wax seal which should overlie this connection. This provides an open highway for the organisms which cause white line disease to enter and do their destructive thing, weakening an already not overly strong hoof wall.

I absolutely and utterly hate the shoeing job. Holy crimony. This type of decision is as if the owner and the farrier are trying to solve the problem "from the bottom up", which will never work. The problems have to be solved "from the top down", beginning with a course (which will take anywhere from a year and a half to two years) of successive hoof trims in which the farrier MUST "win" every time, i.e. must trim in such a manner that the hoof stands a little steeper and in a little better balance, not only right after the trim is done, but is still holding up four to six weeks later, when the next trim is to take place. You have to "win" every single time or you get nowhere.

I do not expect this to be understood, however, until I am able to mark up your photos, and that won't happen yet for another few days, until my new graphics tablet arrives. My apologies again for the delay. -- Dr. Deb

Redmare
Member
 

Joined: Wed Mar 26th, 2014
Location:  
Posts: 75
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Fri Nov 22nd, 2019 04:45 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dr. Deb, how unfortunate about your pad and tooth! Hopefully all is healing well and your new pad arrives soon.

Everything you've briefly noted makes sense so far and is also what I noticed - I trim my gelding and our two donkeys. I look forward to more detail and your photo mark-ups.

Redmare
Member
 

Joined: Wed Mar 26th, 2014
Location:  
Posts: 75
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Dec 3rd, 2019 09:12 pm
 Quote  Reply 
While we are waiting on Dr. Deb's tablet conundrum - I thought I'd post the following, which may prove helpful or at least part of the discussion.

The gelding is by Cloud Hopping and out of Vision De Luz by El Prado. I see both Northern and Native Dancer is his pedigree, but no Phalaris.

Also, I am trying to get radiographic images of his front feet to load, but I can't seem to get them small enough. Dr. Deb, I might end up having to email these to you.


 Current time is 10:50 am
Page:    1  2  Next Page Last Page  




Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez