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ESI Q and A Forums > ESI Q and A Forum > Questions and discussions for the ESI Q and A Forum > wrong ways of riding show horses -- or any kind of horse

wrong ways of riding show horses -- or any kind of horse
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Kuhaylan Heify
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 Posted: Fri May 3rd, 2019 03:08 pm
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Dear Dr. Deb. Ran across a compilation of veterinarian studies of the harmful effects of riding horses with a constant flexion at the poll. The authors say that flexing at the Poll causes resistance to airflow in the upper respiratory tract.
This was from a study in 2014 by Emmanuelle Van Erk and Jonathon H. Foreman in Equine Sports Medicine.
So to counteract the bad effects of holding a horse at the Ramener shouldn't the rider show the horse the way to the ground after each movement? And wouldn't so doing, constitute a ,'descent de maine, descent de jambes', which of course comes from the French school by way of Gueriniere?
best
Bruce Peek

DrDeb
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 Posted: Fri May 3rd, 2019 10:04 pm
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Bruce, once again you're a little behind the curve. Of course all those back issues of EQUUS I suggested that you purchase, among that list I did not put every issue but nonetheless there is an article by me in about 75% of all the issues, especially since about 2009.

So, what I'm saying is, in one of the issues I didn't previously suggest you buy, there is an article on "raising the base of the neck". The pertinent issue is the one from June, 2010 (no. 393). If you read it, you will find the complete answer to your query.

The problem for the horses is indeed that they are being ridden wrong -- they are being pulled together. I have also written a "raising the base of the neck" article for The Eclectic Horseman, to which everybody reading here should also subscribe. That issue is no. 56 from 2010, and you can get back issues -- if indeed the back issues for that particular issue have not already sold out -- by going to Eclectic Horseman Mercantile.

The article which came out immediately prior to the one cited above (in Eclectic Horseman 2010 no. 55) is also something you need to read in order to understand what makes the "wrong" riding wrong. What does it mean to pull a horse together? Why does pulling the horse together choke off the horse's air, whereas the head can be raised astonishingly high if the base of the neck is what the rider is aiming to raise rather than the poll? It is the confusion between raising the base of the neck vs. merely raising the head or the poll that causes the wrong riding.

In the latter article, I present the classic series of images first promulgated by Museler in his textbook. They purport to show the progression from uncollected to highly collected, and they are terribly, terribly wrong. From these images we then had Violet Hopkins, a maven of the USDF, who had the "brilliant" idea of drawing a square around the outside of each of Museler's images, and then noticing, and teaching her students, that the square got taller and shorter from front to back with each successive image. This is the origin of bar-none the all-time WORST term to be introduced to horseback riding -- "frame". Never Never Never use this word or even think of it or picture it in your mind's eye !!!!

Death to the frame !! What I have done to kill this horrible conceptual parasite is re-draw Museler's images so that they are correct. Go get the EQUUS article and the two EH articles and study them, copy the corrected Museler series out on a photocopier and hang it on your refrigerator door.

Then you won't ever again think of first doing something that hurts your horse (pulling him together into an ersatz of collection) and then "making up for it" by showing him the way to the ground (which is indeed an excellent technique for inducing him to raise the base of his neck). I do not want you to ride incorrectly, or in any manner that will damage your horse, AT ANY TIME. It is never necessary. Instead, you learn to coordinate the leg and the hand so as to cause the horse to raise the freespan of its back, and along with that the base of its neck. And you further learn to feel when it is time -- or when it is too early -- to raise the poll. It is too early anytime you try to raise the poll but the horse cannot support it by maintaining a raised base-of-neck -- in which case, the base of the neck "falls out" and the horse comes right off the bit (or you can say, "begins going above the bit"). No horse can at any time be correctly on the bit, or give a correct appuy, unless it raises the base of the neck. It is the raising of the base of the neck that puts him "on" the bit.

I find it somewhat amusing, Bruce, that you always seem to ask questions as if you were in a complete fog whenever you've been in class with me. You've attended five full days of lecture with me during the anatomy class, and several other times have been present; and I have spoken of these things every single time. Where was your brain?? Maybe this is a test case for the truism "adults only hear what they are expecting to hear".

But then again -- nobody gets anything until it is ripe, so I'm glad you're asking now. Cheers -- Dr. Deb



 

Kuhaylan Heify
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 Posted: Sat May 4th, 2019 12:12 am
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Dear Dr. Deb.. Got the back issues ordered. The back issues guy said they only had 2018's left.. So I found another site on line," Zinninio", I think it was and ordered everything.. We'll see if its a legitimate site if they show up. Also Got the Eclectic Horseman started too along with some back issues from them too. With the E.H. I was actually able to talk to a human so hopefully it will start arriving in the mail soon.
best
Bruce Peek

DrDeb
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 Posted: Sat May 4th, 2019 07:58 am
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Bruce are you saying that EQUUS is telling you that they have NO back issues available prior to 2018? -- Dr. Deb

Kuhaylan Heify
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 Posted: Sat May 4th, 2019 02:54 pm
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Yeah, that was what the guy said when I called with the list you gave us...So I googled around and found another site that had a similar page setup but that went back to 2014 if i recall correctly..So i marked all of them that i could and put my credit card numbers in and sent off my order. I used a certain credit card with a green face on it( unamed so i don't violate policy re. endorsements) which has a security payment feature on it and will change your card if bad guys get the numbers and sell them to other bad guys..
As to the whole back issues thing what about doing a deal with Equus to license past articles? Such an arrangement would provide a revenue stream to the magazine and yourself as well. Kind of like residuals for little house on the prairie shows for Melissa Gilbert..
best
Bruce Peek

Jeannie
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 Posted: Wed May 8th, 2019 05:54 pm
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Hi Bruce,
you may also want to read Dressage in the French Tradition by Dom Diogo De Braganca, a student of Nuno Oliveira.

It clearly explains that, while the goal in riding is to have a ramener in which the the head is vertical, that can only be achieved when the horse can raise the base of the neck high enough to support that position. Until that time," a somewhat "long" ramener (a longer, lowered neck), is not only to be advised as a general rule, but is even indispensable in many cases." So you would never hold the horse at the ramener.

As far as descente de main and descente de jambe go, that is also a goal of riding:
"One preoccupation of each moment in dressage must be to practice descents (yielding) of the hand, descents of the legs, and simultaneous descents of the hand and leg.

In the descent of the hand, the rider progressively abandons the reins on the neck with his mount conserving the acquired position by himself. The gait continues with the same cadence and the same lightness. It must be the same in the descent of the legs when they abandon contact with the flanks.

A horse's dressage reaches its apogee, according to Baucher and Faverot de Kerbrech, when in the simultaneous descent of the hand and legs, the horse conserves the cadence, lightness, collection, and brilliance into which he was brought with the help of the aids."

This philosophy is in accordance with the articles Dr Deb has under Knowledge Base.
Jeannie

DrDeb
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 Posted: Wed May 8th, 2019 08:12 pm
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Absolutely, Jeannie. And hasn't that word "descent" confused a zillion people, because at first glance it seems to be about lowering your hands or legs.

One of the people it did confuse was the great old Beaudant, when he was soldiering in Algiers with the French Foreign Legion. He wrote a letter at that time (this incident is retold in his book) to his commandant in Paris, none other than Faverot de Kerbrech, and said:

"I am very confused in studying Baucher, because he says to lower the hands ("descente de main") and this is contrary to everything I know to be good in riding."

And Faverot de Kerbrech wrote him back, saying:

"But of course -- the phrase 'descente de main' is not to be taken literally or as the dictionary gives it. The usage is colloquial and unique, as is much of what Baucher said. When he says 'descente de main' what he means is to loosen the reins".

And here once again we have the parallelism of Tom Dorrance/Ray Hunt with Baucher; we are all indeed the children of Baucher, because another perfect translation, particularly of 'descente de main combined with descente de jambe' is:

TURNING LOOSE

Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Kuhaylan Heify
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 Posted: Thu May 9th, 2019 02:52 pm
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Also, if I could add. Mike Schaffer has a discussion of the Ramener in his blog going back a couple years. You just need to scroll down through to find it.
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Bruce Peek

kcooper
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 Posted: Mon Jun 17th, 2019 01:54 am
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A number of years ago I caught up on EH back issues by getting them in a digital download format. I’m sure they would still be offering that. And they were only $2.50 per issue.

Do any of you know if EQUUS magazine offers digital back order issues?

Kim

DrDeb
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 Posted: Mon Jun 17th, 2019 05:58 am
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Kim, if you got them that way you did NOT get them from me. We have never done any digital downloads except the free .pdf's that you can get through our "Knowledge Base" section.

This is the first time I've ever heard of somebody ripping us off.

PLEASE only get our stuff from where you're supposed to get it.

Do not buy ESI books or other materials authored or spoken or produced by me from Amazon.com. If they are there, they are either stolen or illegally duplicated.

Here is where it is OK and good to buy ESI products:

Directly from this website, http://www.equinestudies.org, using the PayPal buttons or else by direct payment via PayPal.

ECLECTIC HORSEMAN mercantile at http://www.eclectichorseman.com. They carry "Conquerors", the "Conformation Basics" workbook no. 1, and the 4-DVD set entitled "Conformation Biomechanics."

Horse Books Etc. carries the old "Principles of Conformation Analysis" (http://www.horsebooksetc.com). We do not carry that title.

Please take care when making purchases to help us rather than hurt us. -- Dr. Deb

kcooper
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 Posted: Mon Jun 17th, 2019 01:16 pm
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Dr Deb

I’ll try and be more clear this time.
You can order complete old issues of Eclectic Horseman magazine in a downloadable format directly off of their official website for $2.50.

I was only wondering, if EQUUS has run out of paper copies of their old magazine, maybe they also offer complete copies in a downloadable form directly from their own legitimate website?

Kim

DrDeb
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 Posted: Wed Jun 19th, 2019 10:01 am
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Oh, sorry Kim -- I totally misread your first post, taking "EH" for "IH". Yes, we're happy to have this real gift from Eclectic Horseman -- they're very generous to let you have those articles for very little money.

When we get our new ESI website up, that will be another place you can get them -- on a rotating basis -- for free, again by the generosity of Emily Kitching who is EH's owner and editor. Cheers -- Dr. Deb


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