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Query re: Ostermaier's black Lipizzan
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herd
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 Posted: Thu Jun 28th, 2018 08:53 am
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Can anybody give info about black lipizzan stallion that Albert Ostermier once rode? Name, origin, pedigre etc.
http://circusnospin.blogspot.com/2008/04/albert-ostermaier-lord-of-riding-arena.html


Excuse me if this is not an appropriate question.

Last edited on Thu Jun 28th, 2018 08:53 am by herd

DrDeb
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 Posted: Fri Jun 29th, 2018 07:33 am
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No, Herd, you're fine to ask this. I know the stallion from having seen several performances of his on videotape. He develops remarkably from the age of about four when Ostermaier first acquired him, to his teenaged years and into his twenties. The horse was capable of a very vigorous Spanish Trot, and later became a courbette specialist, which put a really huge amount of muscle on his back, abdominals, and hindquarter muscles. Yet the horse never became crabbed in his movement, which speaks very well for Ostermaier's training and riding.

On the very earliest tape I have of the horse, Ostermaier introduces him as a rare black Lipizzan but I do not believe he gives the horse's name.

Alan Pogue -- I know you have a lot of Ostermaier material. Do you know the horse's name? Herd may be inquiring because they are checking pedigrees, a very good thing considering that the Lipizzan, like the original Morgan bloodlines, is now an endangered/rare breed. Cheers -- Dr. Deb


herd
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 Posted: Sun Jul 1st, 2018 01:05 pm
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That is so interesting

Aloha
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 Posted: Sun Jul 1st, 2018 06:51 pm
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Calistro Neopolitano?

Calistro Neopolitano Aleros

Some info here:
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=DS19760701.2.62

DrDeb
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 Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2018 01:01 am
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Yes! Very good, many thanks Aloha. Does this satisfy your question, Herd? Also, just for my own curiosity -- why did you ask about this? Not that many people remember Albert Ostermaier, though we like him. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

herd
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 Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2018 05:29 am
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I  learned about Albert Ostermaier accidentally.

There are several reasons why I was interested to learn about his stallion.
That picture, exceptionally powerful horse -its build, and black color.

As you said there are not so many lipizzans in the world compared to other breeds( but I would not say endangered). In this moment there are about 10000 lipizzans according to LIF.

Another reason is there are so many wrong facts about lipizzans which circulates, so I'm trying to connect facts about "historical" horses.

For example in this article https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=DS19760701.2.62 is stated "There are only eight horses like Aleros in the world. Lipizzaners are bornblack, but gradually turn white. But not so Aleros. "

This is simply not true. I'm sure  then was more colored horses, but you do not have to blame the journalists or horse people,  color theory is a romantic myth.
I'm not sure in color % today, looking for world population probably about 10% non gray. Before few decades number of lipizzans was smaller (I should check the data- probably few 1000, but % of color was bigger).
 Should be mentioned that % of black and bays is different in different countries, for example Hungary, Croatia and Romania have  more colored horses than Austria.
Except gray factor, black and bay horses, today exist chestnut, roan and buckskin.

Regarding Calistro Neopolitano Aleros  I'll try to find his pedigree, I'm not sure if I will succeed but thanks for the very fact that you answered.

DrDeb
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 Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2018 10:07 am
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Herd, you have to remember that Ostermaier was a "solo performance exhibitor," in other words, a circus man who had to make a living by promoting and making as special-sounding as possible whatever he presented to the public. He was Hungarian by birth and emigrated to the U.S. in the late 1940's, brought in by Republic Pictures in connection with the movie "Florian" starring Robert Young. Ostermaier trained the Lipizzan stallion that starred in that movie, and the studio brought him and the horse over together. Once he arrived here, he applied for and received asylum and eventually citizenship.

As to the color -- the Spanish Riding School also avers that a Lipizzan of any color other than gray is rare. The only two colors other than gray that I am aware of Lipizzans having in modern times are black and bay, with black much less frequent than bay. So Ostermaier is telling the truth as far as that goes -- he is reporting exactly what the Austrians also say.

It is true that Lipizzans once came in many colors, as evidenced by the painting of the "haras" or breeding herd that hangs in the guest-reception hall at the SRS headquarters outside Vienna. That painting can easily be viewed on line, and shows palomino, chestnut, brown, bay, and black horses as well as grays; and also many with "paint" or "pinto" patterning as well as appaloosa-type spotting. All of this variation was bred out of the Lipizzan during the early quarter of the 19th century.

As to the Lipizzan being a rare breed -- yes, it is considered both rare and endangered, similar to the Lippitt Morgan and the Spanish Colonial Horse (a.k.a. "mustang"). I was just on the 'phone last week with my old friend Dr. Phil Sponenberg discussing this -- Phil having spent his life educating people about the Spanish Colonial horse and how very harmful it is to the future of the horses, when little breed registries get at war with one another and refuse to cooperate. When an already-small breeding population is broken up into even smaller subunits which are discouraged or actually prevented from freely interbreeding, the extinction of the breed is not far off. Something very similar has also happened to the Lipizzan, partly due to warring factions within the breed but also due to WWII and the Iron Curtain, so that all the best broodmares from Piber were confiscated by the Russians -- they arrived in Vienna ahead of the Americans -- and they took them to what later became Yugoslavia. The Viennese were so incensed at this that they wouldn't even acknowledge the fact that it had happened, and they demanded the return of their property -- but that did not happen. In America, and equal tragedy occurred when the heirs of the Temple steel fortune, out of hatred for their father whose hobby had been collecting and breeding Lipizzans (a.k.a. "the Temple herd") -- when he died they auctioned some of them off but most were simply slaughtered. This extinguished the Maestoso bloodline in America for all intents and purposes from about 1980 until very recently. You could find a Pluto or a Conversano fairly easily -- George Williams had a Conversano he used to show, Kit Young had another Conversano I believe, and the so-called "Royal Lipizzan Troupe" had a bunch of Plutos, some of which wound up at Arabian Nights Dinner Theater in Ocala. The loss of the Temple herd was particularly tragic because Mr. Temple could afford the best available and I knew and rode some of those stallions and they were lovely -- a great loss.

So, yes, Herd, we do answer here -- that's our purpose. This space is my international classroom and you are welcome to come to ask and discuss horse-related questions at any time. Cheers -- Dr. Deb


herd
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 Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2018 01:29 pm
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Regarding color. As I said there are many wrong theories of illusions, this is to be expected because Lipizzans are "misterious breed" and plenty of breeders (and big stud farms) promote "gray breed" story. Yes lipizzans are mostly gray, but even today there are colors. One chestnut.


Maestoso XLVII-7. -Romania (Beclean stud)


Last edited on Mon Jul 2nd, 2018 01:30 pm by herd

herd
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 Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2018 12:30 pm
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110 Conversano Batosta III-1.  - 2003. Đakovo


Maestoso X Timrava (Maestoso X-5), -born 1995 Topolcianky


Conversano Bonavia, Piber 2003

Theresa
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 Posted: Wed Jul 4th, 2018 05:22 pm
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During the Second World War, Count Jankovich-Besan rescued a few of the Lipizzaners and brought them to South Africa. We have some of their descendants here today, and this past weekend they performed in Natal. The story of their escape from Europe is usually told at the introduction to any of their performances, and if I remember correctly, the horses were put in front of carts and dirtied up and disguised to look most unappealing. Since 1960 there has been a Lipizzaner Equestrian Centre in Kyalami that gives a Sunday morning show, as well as exhibitions around the country.

I have copied the following from one of their Facebook posts:

South African Lipizzaners
Yesterday at 09:00 ·
CAN LIPIZZANERS EVER BE ANOTHER COLOUR?
They can and they DO have other colours besides grey, it’s just very, very, very rare. We are lucky that we have three bay stallions at our centre! Conversano Arva, Siglavy Arva I and Siglavy Erem I.

All Lipizzaners are born dark, and between their 1st and 5th birthdays they begin to show clear signs of greying out. This can either be a very fast process so that by 2 years old the young horse is fully white, or very slow so that in their 20's some still have dappling.

The grey colour, which turns silvery white in adulthood, is by far the commonest colour, as the Habsburg princes who created the breed preferred this colour and selected for it; thus the genes are hugely dominant and the bay very recessive.

DID YOU KNOW?
There’s a legend that, as long as there is a bay Lipizzaner in the mix of performing stallions, there will be no war that year. There are many more variations, but the most charming is that at long as there is a bay in the performing line-up, the Spanish Riding School will endure. And hopefully the South African Lipizzaners too!

herd
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 Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2018 01:27 pm
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Jankovich Besan, an important family in lipizzan breeding.

Noble family with property in Croatia and Hungary.  As a matter of fact their name is written in lipizzan history trough stud farms Cabuna and Terezovac (both in Croatia)- and because their horses are basis for lipizzan breeding in South African Republic..
Janković Besan familly started to breed lipizzans in Terezovac in 18. century, later in 19. century part of herd was taken to Cabuna (inheritance thing).

Both stud farms have existed to 1920's.

Today LIF recognizes 8 stallion lines. 6 classic (created in Lipica), 1 Hungarian (Incitato) and 1 Croatian (Tulipan -created by familly Janković in Terezovac).


It is important to note that all 8 are equal. That 6 lines are classic because they are created in Lipica, but as   purity all 8 are equal.

There are 17 classic families,  16 of croatian origin (6 from janković), 16 of hungarian origin, and 13 of romanian origin.
Except 1 stallion line, and 6 mare families family Janković is important because they sold horses to other breeders and stud farms.


Here's an example.
Stallion line Pluto is one of 6 classical lines (created in Lipica), progenitor is stallion Pluto born in 1765.  In last decades of 19 century that line disappeared in Lipica.
But familly Janković had stallions of Pluto line. Pluto Fantasca was born 1887 in Terezovac, his progeny was of high quality. So one his son born in Fagaras (today Romania, in that time Hungary) was sent to Lipica and in that way line Pluto was returned to Lipica. Today all Pluto stallions are descendants of Pluto Fantasca in direct male line.


Pluto Fantasca, Terezovac 1887

694 Tulipan Ira   -Terezovac. 1912


401 Tulipan Maradhat -1925 Stančić stud in Croatia (in that time probably best lipizzan stud in the world) (son of Tulipan Ira)


9 Mocskos, Terezovac 1915 -lipizzan mare

DrDeb
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 Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2018 10:06 pm
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Herd, I cannot express enough how grateful I am for the education regarding Lipizzan breeding that you are providing us here. I do have your many "private messages" but am having an unusually busy week and so you must wait patiently a little longer for replies to those.

Meanwhile, however, briefly I can say that your information will be used -- eventually -- as background research and information for a feature article in EQUUS Magazine. It will be some time -- the Lipizzan is not at the top of my priority list, as we have to first finish with the history of the Quarter Horse and then do the American Saddlebred also. But after that, there will be an opportunity to take an in-depth look at some European breeds.

I understand you are Croatian and writing from somewhere in Eastern Europe. May I ask, how you come by your interest and expertise in Lipizzans? Again, I am most grateful for your contributions here. -- Dr. Deb

herd
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 Posted: Fri Jul 6th, 2018 01:23 pm
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I would not say expertis. Let's just say desire for knowledge, I gathered some books,
made some contacts so with time I learned some things about lipizzans.


Lipizzans are interesting because on the one hand there is "romantic history"
which is too pronounced or is not true, one the other side there are so many facts which are not known or are not interesting to a wider circle of people.

255 Favory Mara XIX -born in
Lipik (Croatia) 1951.


Picture from Đakovo (Croatia)


In Aachen in 1960.


His arrival in USA 1964(Tempel Farms)



Allen Pogue 1
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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 01:43 pm
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Hello Dr Deb, Probably thebest sourceof Ostermier hisrory would come from Diana Olds Rossi.She was a student of his and has carried on quite well.


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