ESI Q and A Forums Home
 Search       Members   Calendar   Help   Home 
Search by username
Not logged in - Login | Register 

Worried of rubber mats
 Moderated by: DrDeb  
 New Topic   Reply   Print 
AuthorPost
DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3232
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 04:35 am
 Quote  Reply 
Christie, I've been in L.A. for a few days and unable to answer until now. So, I just want to say, good for you for getting in there and following instructions. And even more for your realization that your horse is not, in fact, broke to tie, so that you are now going to train her so that she does fully and completely understand how to stand tied. Previously you have been riding on luck!

As to your process with asking the horse to step under the body-shadow one-step-at-a-time: this is not to be a "disengagement". It is "untracking" -- you are untracking the horse. But the most important things are that the steps are single, and with a "forward" directional sense to them.

The reason your horse steps backwards is that you're hanging on to the lead rope too much with the hand that is holding the lead rope. If she is not offering to swap around and kick you in the chest, then the lead rope should be dead SLACK. You have it slack enough so she knows it's slack and there is absolutely no excuse for her not to be willing to step up into it. SHE should take the slack out of the line when she steps up there. YOU should not take the slack out of the line at any time, unless she offers to turn into the opposite direction/get her butt facing toward you.

This, by the way, is what it means to have a horse 'go up to the bit' so you are also learning this very important skill. The horse that backs away from this wee bit of ground exercise will also be very improper, very incorrect, deeply avoiding, giving himself to you when he is being ridden in a bit or whatever you ride him in.

It's OK for the present time if the horse turns all the way around to face you. That just merely means she has taken more steps than would be ideal. Keep working to do less so that she takes fewer steps. If you want to inhibit her front end from coming around to face you, if you are on her left side then put your left hand (the one that holds the leadrope) up. You'll be learning how to time this just right by trying it a few times.

And remember to lead her forward a few steps each time after she steps forward-and-across and then stops. You can go in and pet her on the forehead after she takes the one step or the few calm steps; then lead her forward. So you always end the exercise, each bout of the exercise, with a few steps going to the front.

Please write back again after you've done this/thought about this, and we'll go from there. Best wishes -- Dr. Deb

christie
Member
 

Joined: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008
Location:  
Posts: 89
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 05:16 am
 Quote  Reply 
Um, did I realize my horse wasn't broke to tie? I am still in the phase of  believing she only pulled back because she does not like the mats under her feet and I know she would not have pulled back otherwise.

I am still here, gladly following your instructions so I can learn something 'big' and you can show me where I am wrong in my thinking. :-)

I will print out your new instructions and pay more attention to the leading forward part. I did try again briefly today and she did the same HQ disengage. I have the lead slack, as she is a gentle horse and so I have no worry of her kicking me or being out of control. However, you may be right and I will double check the looseness of the rope or use my 20ft rope so I can be absolutely sure.

I'll follow up here, maybe not too soon as I won't be able to see my horse for at least a couple days.

 

Last edited on Thu Mar 13th, 2008 05:17 am by christie

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3232
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 07:13 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Christie, I continue to be fascinated by answers such as the one you have just given. Aren't you also the same girl who wrote in to tell us that (1) Your horse is restive when you try to mount and (2) Your horse is restive and not the most fun on a trail ride? And haven't you just told us (3) that your horse has pulled back hard?

When are these factors going to connect in your mind with the idea that your horse is actually not broke to ride or handle?

Being "not broke to ride or handle" means that the animal does not know HOW to be ridden -- how to respond to the rider's signals and desires -- how to stand tied quietly under any and all circumstances -- how to stand quietly to be mounted.

The key words again are: she does not know HOW.

You have never heard me say "that's just the way horses are. That's just the way your horse is."

Neither will you ever hear me say, "yes, let's just 'fix' this one little thing and then everything will be OK".

But you, Christie, because you do not know HOW to train a horse for any one thing, also do not know HOW to train a horse for anything. What this means, or what I am trying to get you to see, is that when "just one little thing" seems wrong or unpleasant with a horse, then your problem is very unlikely to just be at that level. The real problem, and the real solution, is much broader and deeper.

I am not at all interested in working on the surface level, because I know that your problems and most peoples' problems with their horses can only be solved by reaching down to the very base. It is at the very base where the horse's confusion, or not-understanding HOW, lies.

So. Now that you've been working a little bit at obeying what I asked you to do, because you have obeyed or tried to obey, for the first time you have a little real experience with it. And based on that experience, I am now asking you: what do you think the connection is between getting the horse to step over one step at a time, and having the horse stand quietly to tie, stand quietly to be mounted, and be totally pleasant on a trailride?

Think about this carefully please, before you respond. -- Dr. Deb

fancy
Member
 

Joined: Sun Nov 25th, 2007
Location: Fenton, MI, USA
Posts: 20
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 07:37 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dr. Deb, do ALL horses have to learn to tie--i.e. step under and up--or do some horses just naturally do it?  My horse doesn't have any problems with tying.  I'm just inquisitive.

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3232
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 07:57 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Fancy, if your horse really does not have any problems with tying, then that horse does know HOW to stand tied. Either you, or someone else in the past, was able to help that horse learn HOW to stand tied. It's as simple as that.

Christie's horse has never met someone who could help her learn HOW. The purpose of stepping under is not the whole of the "HOW" -- just the first part. If Christie hangs in there, there will be more to come. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

fancy
Member
 

Joined: Sun Nov 25th, 2007
Location: Fenton, MI, USA
Posts: 20
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 08:07 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Ah!  As I thought.  The guy that put 30 days on my mare did well by her.   He gave her a solid ground--tying, hobbling, leading, stopping, etc.  She just needed miles when I got her.  I bless him every time I ride.

christie
Member
 

Joined: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008
Location:  
Posts: 89
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 08:18 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Well I don't think my horse got anything much good going for her before she came to me. She was probably 5 when my friend bought her at the local auction and thought she was 'ready' for showing. Hardly.

That said, people who knew the horse before I started with her are amazed at the difference. I've put in a lot of hard work and effort, but this is really only my first horse I've ever had. It's been a long road. I'm not going anywhere Deb and I know this first part of the exercise is just the first step and I'll be coming back for more! I will be doing the exercise again and putting together a response to your last post to me and will post that again in the coming days.

I love to be caused to think about my horsemanship.

So as not to post yet again...I googled(always thinking)how to tie a horse, found an article that confirms what you are trying to tell me and helped me understand exactly what you meant. The miscommunication between us lied in what each of our thoughts on what tieing well meant. The article basically states that yeah your horse is so great at being tied...until, something spooks them..or someone approaches your horse with an umbrella...etc. I'm starting to get it now


 

 

Last edited on Thu Mar 13th, 2008 08:47 pm by christie

christie
Member
 

Joined: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008
Location:  
Posts: 89
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Mar 15th, 2008 09:42 pm
 Quote  Reply 
DrDeb wrote: The reason your horse steps backwards is that you're hanging on to the lead rope too much with the hand that is holding the lead rope. If she is not offering to swap around and kick you in the chest, then the lead rope should be dead SLACK. You have it slack enough so she knows it's slack and there is absolutely no excuse for her not to be willing to step up into it.Hoping I have success with the quote feature....I got out my long rope last night, it was cold and raining but I just had to stop by the barn to get a practice in! I laid the entirety of the rope beside her shoulder so I would be absolutely sure to not be taking any slack out. I think that made the difference, of course I will be practicing again. She did it just right without taking more than 2 steps, several times. Also I thought the leading forward was to be done after doing it several times on one side, before going to the next. This time I made sure to lead her forward after each try. I want to assert that my horse is not going to kick me.  I can lead her around by her back legs and flail a whip while standing behind her back end. I see I didn't have a lot of success with the quote feature! I will be responding to your other post separately.

Last edited on Sat Mar 15th, 2008 09:43 pm by christie

christie
Member
 

Joined: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008
Location:  
Posts: 89
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Mar 15th, 2008 09:56 pm
 Quote  Reply 
DrDeb wrote: Christie, I continue to be fascinated by answers such as the one you have just given. Aren't you also the same girl who wrote in to tell us that (1) Your horse is restive when you try to mount and (2) Your horse is restive and not the most fun on a trail ride? And haven't you just told us (3) that your horse has pulled back hard?

When are these factors going to connect in your mind with the idea that your horse is actually not broke to ride or handle?



I cannot seem to separate my answers from the quotes so I'm doing this separately. I hope that's ok, I have a lot to say.

My horse shows displeasure when my heavier friend goes to mount and dismount.  (I do have you instructions on proper mounting)My assumption was that it's because this feels uncomfortable for my small horse. I normally get on from a fence or step stool because I think it's friendlier for the horse. My horse stands perfectly still when you mount and perfectly still after you get on. If I sit on a fence or stand up on the mounting block she even gets up next to me, easily, so I can get on. There were a couple of comments you made in an answer that I just wanted to make perfectly sure you understand that she's not a wild thing or hard to get up next to to mount.

I don't remember writing about the trail rides. I did find a string by Julie that pretty much sums it up though. I didn't see you saying her horse wasn't broke to ride though because of it. Yes she can get 'restive' on trail rides. I understand it's because her Birdie is not with her. She is lovely at home(where the Birdie loves to reside..or in most arenas). I can ride at all gaits with ease and do it with just a string around her neck too.

And for the pulling back..I swear this has never happened before and she's 14 years old. I know that mat she was standing on is not an excuse. I do want to note that when she steps on her lead(sometimes often when I am not careful), she steps right back off of it, she does not panic from the pressure. I state this to give more information, not excuses. Also one time this winter something fell behind her where I had her tied(on the main mats)made a big ole noise and she jumped big time, she came back down where she started, no pulling back. 

 

 

 


Last edited on Sat Mar 15th, 2008 10:19 pm by christie

christie
Member
 

Joined: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008
Location:  
Posts: 89
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Mar 15th, 2008 10:02 pm
 Quote  Reply 
DrDeb wrote:
Being "not broke to ride or handle" means that the animal does not know HOW to be ridden -- how to respond to the rider's signals and desires -- how to stand tied quietly under any and all circumstances -- how to stand quietly to be mounted.

The key words again are: she does not know HOW.

I was going to ask for your definition of broke to ride..you state it here but then I guess I do not fully understand. She responds to my signals and desires just fine, until her Birdie leaves.  I'm just confused hearing you say that my horse is not broke to ride..she responds to my riding signals just fine, she backs, sideways, walk, trot, canter, stop...until the Birdie leaves, which is usually at a new place out of her comfort zone. I already asserted that she stands still to mount, she also will stand to be saddled untied.

christie
Member
 

Joined: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008
Location:  
Posts: 89
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Mar 15th, 2008 10:06 pm
 Quote  Reply 
DrDeb wrote:
I am not at all interested in working on the surface level, because I know that your problems and most peoples' problems with their horses can only be solved by reaching down to the very base. It is at the very base where the horse's confusion, or not-understanding HOW, lies.

So. Now that you've been working a little bit at obeying what I asked you to do, because you have obeyed or tried to obey, for the first time you have a little real experience with it. And based on that experience, I am now asking you: what do you think the connection is between getting the horse to step over one step at a time, and having the horse stand quietly to tie, stand quietly to be mounted, and be totally pleasant on a trailride?

Think about this carefully please, before you respond. -- Dr. Deb



I want to get to that base! If anything I have said  in my posts today has caused you to roll your eyes in disbelief, I'm sorry for that, but it will be good for me when you set me straight along the way. :-)

The connection. Here are the thoughts I've come up with.

His Birdie is with him. Confidence in the human. Confidence in himself. 

I hope I got the right answer in there somewhere :-)

Last edited on Sat Mar 15th, 2008 10:13 pm by christie

Sam
Member
 

Joined: Tue Jun 12th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 149
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Mar 16th, 2008 04:17 am
 Quote  Reply 
Hi Christie,

A thank you to you for starting this thread, it has finally sunk into my silly old head exactly what stepping under the body shadow is and how to get it all arranged.  I have been playing with my darling Muffy now for a while as he was never 'broke' and scared to death of ME (!!!!)  Thanks to Debs nudges in the right direction we are having the bestest time but I still didn't understand this essential thing.  Made the world of difference to my horse today when I saddled him and asked him to move off...one slow step under the body shadow and then proceed forward...hey presto...horse with no tension in his body, bleedin amazing. 

Have fun!

Big Smiles Sam

christie
Member
 

Joined: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008
Location:  
Posts: 89
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Mar 16th, 2008 04:34 am
 Quote  Reply 
Sam,

Thank you for posting a thought here. Any and all are welcome and I hope that others learn along with me. I understand going from not having the best time to having the best time! I'm really not trying to exasperate Dr. Deb. :-) I feel I have been a bit closed minded in my horsemanship journey and that my mind is not(I mean , now!..freudian slip?) ready to expand. 

 

Last edited on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 04:35 am by christie

fancy
Member
 

Joined: Sun Nov 25th, 2007
Location: Fenton, MI, USA
Posts: 20
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Mar 16th, 2008 05:08 pm
 Quote  Reply 
"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear" seems to fit in well here. 


christie
Member
 

Joined: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008
Location:  
Posts: 89
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Mar 19th, 2008 12:23 am
 Quote  Reply 
I assume Dr. Deb is waiting for more work on my part before a next reply. More work is forthcoming. I received the Birdie book yesterday and have sat before my computer most of the day reading several chapters and scanning parts. I would love to be able to print a chapter at a time but can't seem to figure that out on my own.

I found an interesting sentence at the end of the section about tieing, about a horse should never learn they can come loose when tied, or something to that effect but wrong choice of words.

Since I can't seem to keep even the embarrassing things to myself, I admit that I fall short in the knot tying dept and just recently my friend showed me the tweek in my knot that I was missing to make it hold correctly. So, during the last several weeks when my horse has been tied on the mats she has been pulling downward(in her desire to get off of them, she tries to investigate them with her nose..sorry if that is not the reality, the fact I think she wants to get off of them) and twice she has come entirely loose or the other times I just see it getting loose and retighten it. So I have been teaching her something that very obviously from the pull back episode last week, was very dangerous to teach her. 


 Current time is 11:27 pm
Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2   




Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez