ESI Q and A Forums Home
 Search       Members   Calendar   Help   Home 
Search by username
Not logged in - Login | Register 

Digital cushion photos
 Moderated by: DrDeb  
 New Topic   Reply   Print 
AuthorPost
chebert16
Member
 

Joined: Wed Oct 16th, 2013
Location:  
Posts: 35
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Fri Nov 8th, 2013 01:15 pm
 Quote  Reply 
After "corrective shoeing."

Attachment: Stevie June 2013.jpg (Downloaded 310 times)

AdamTill
Member
 

Joined: Tue Mar 27th, 2007
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posts: 289
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Fri Nov 8th, 2013 05:25 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Would learn about shoeing described as being "short shod" (heel branches too short) and the reasons for such an arched hairline.

Last edited on Fri Nov 8th, 2013 05:25 pm by AdamTill

chebert16
Member
 

Joined: Wed Oct 16th, 2013
Location:  
Posts: 35
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Fri Nov 8th, 2013 09:35 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Thanks Adam, I'd ask, but the guy that did this isn't my shoer anymore. Her left foot is the one with the injury- and it's angle is very different than her right front foot. This guy put the same 4 degree wedge on both feet- when only the left needed wedged. I've been reading one of Doug Butler's horse shoeing books, and I've applied for his school. This is something I am going to have to take into my own hands- literally.

I was wondering if this mare's left foot would be referred to as having a poor digital cushion, since I can't get her heel to grow. She is underslung on that heel, and was also wondering if underslung heels in general are lacking good digital cushion.

Adam, What do you think causes the arched hairline?
thanks!

chebert16
Member
 

Joined: Wed Oct 16th, 2013
Location:  
Posts: 35
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Fri Nov 8th, 2013 10:49 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Also wondering about wedging a horse with an underslung heel, (lacking digital cushion, if it's the same)- seems like it would put a lot of pressure on the toe-

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3254
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Nov 9th, 2013 04:40 am
 Quote  Reply 
OK, Cindy, I've now had time to dub off your images & look at them. I've pruned one out as being not very useful, but the others contribute to the discussion.

Adam, an old friend of ours here, begins the dialogue on the right foot, so to speak. It is even more clear after your reply to Adam, Cindy, that you don't at all understand what your farrier is doing or why. However, you ARE putting certain pressures on him and also on your veterinarian and that also you probably do not realize.

I'm going to begin from the better of the two conformation photos -- the one where you aren't trying to shoot up-sun, but rather (properly) have the sun at your back so that it shines on the horse and lights her up, so that we can see her without having to bleach her out in Photoshop.

So, the first question I have for you is: what is it that caused you, or continues to cause you, to want to run barrels with this mare? Has she been a champion, or in other words, if you take her to run her, is she consistently beating 99% of the other horses? Did she, or could she, do this before she tore the flexor tendon? Because there are, as we all know, ten million girls wanting to barrel-race, so that because of the sheer number of entries, the contest which might begin at 8 a.m. will not finish until after midnight the same day....and that's just for a local club event, county fair, or rodeo.

Related to this your first question in this thread, about the hoofs sawn in half. There are two different hoofs, Cindy, not one. Evidently the person from whose website you took this photo was wanting to show the difference between a relatively pathological hoof and a relatively normal one. The distortion in the "long toe, low heel" foot is evident, and does not involve merely the toe and the heel, as you can see. Distortion due to AP imbalance drags ALL the internal structures around, including, of course, the digital cushion.

So the further question for you to answer is, does it appear in the hoof closeups you've provided, or in the XRay lateral views, that your barrel-racer's feet are out of AP balance? In other words, I want you to describe back to me the difference in the angle, with respect to the ground, of the tubules of the mare's heels vs. the tubules of the mare's toes. -- Dr. Deb

 

 

 

 

 

chebert16
Member
 

Joined: Wed Oct 16th, 2013
Location:  
Posts: 35
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Nov 9th, 2013 01:27 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Thanks for the reply- can you explain "tubule measurements." Don't see those in my Butler book- in fact, there is no reference anywhere to tubules.

I have only raced this mare 5 times in the last 2 years- she is not getting tortured to do something she is uncomfortable with. I bought my WPRA permit because of her when she was 7 and filled it and bought my pro-card the same year. She easily outran a lot of good horses- her turn style was that she never slowed down, never really got on her hind end to turn- just kept in 4-wheel drive all the way around the barrels. She loves to run and turn and has since I started her. In fact, I used to have to ride her two handed around the barrels, because I needed my outside rein to take her out from the barrel- she would keep circling it if I didn't. She's the epitome of the barrel racing border collie. I do nothing but hang on. Anyway, I could post pics and videos of her winnings, but won't bore you with that-
't was when she was 8 that she started having these foot issues. And since then she has been ran 5 different times, some were great, some not so great, but she always clocked extraordinarily. If she were in the hands of a lot of other girls I know she'd be a complete used up cripple right now- but with me she is just a touch off, and I am wondering what to do to help her. Even if she can't race again, I have bred her and would like to ride her comfortably with her foal by her side.

Thanks!

Last edited on Sat Nov 9th, 2013 01:28 pm by chebert16

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3254
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Nov 9th, 2013 11:29 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Yes, Cindy, you correctly surmise that one of the purposes for my questions was to determine whether it's "worth" continuing to try to make this horse a competitor. Frankly, from her conformation I would not have placed her in among horses likely to be top-ranked barrel racers, but there is no accounting for "heart" and "try" by conformation alone.

It's also obvious from your replies that you care about this animal and are trying to do all that you can for her. However -- as Adam was trying to point out -- some of what you are doing, while it might "look" like it would help, really isn't helping. I mean specifically, that short-shoeing the horse is not helping her to get sound.

Short-shoeing is typically done not because the farrier doesn't know better -- he very likely does -- but rather because you, Cindy, are "telling him" one way or another, and your vet too, that really, really....competing with this horse is still important to you. So they respond by compromising the care they recommend in order to accommodate your stated (or unstated, but still obvious) desires and ambitions. They short-shoe her so that when she runs she will be less likely to tear off the shoes; that's the common wisdom.

But this is not what is going to help the mare. The tubules, as you heard in class, are the essential structural component of the hoof capsules. They are hairlike structures that grow down in parallel from the coronet band to the ground. Now that I've reminded you what they are -- you can easily see them in the photos -- you'll discover that the tubules of the heels in the photo with the yellow wraps are much more horizontal than the tubules at the toe. They are far better in the photo without the wraps, in other words, your farrier has the skill not to "get behind" month to month or trim to trim, so that over time he has been able to raise the tubule angle at the heels a few degrees.

In the without-wraps photo, he's got the mare in wedged aluminum shoes as well as two or three-degree wedge pads, and again shod short to try prevent her from tearing them off. It would, however, be more effective to go after the trim; when the feet are in better AP balance, the horse is much less likely to tear off shoes no matter even if the shoes are a bit on the long side. Your farrier may have been planning this all along -- to lower the angle on the shoes and/or pads gradually. Perhaps also, other suspected lameness issues -- such as sore suspensories or sore tendons or sore shoulders -- are driving your veterinarian to recommend that she be wedged up in order to address that.

I suspect also that your veterinarian believes that the mare needs to have some kind of pad on the foot simply to protect the DDF insertion, which may very well continue to be sore for a long time. To have pads, practically speaking even in this day and age of plastic appliances and fairly effective glues, requires a nail-on shoe. This is in conflict with the fact that the farrier would be able to achieve better AP balance quicker if she could go barefoot. And, of course, apart from you observing a three-legged lame horse, she CAN go barefoot through her pregnancy and the foaling and nursing period, because you will not be riding her.

And Adam, here's the point where you can jump in here and give Cindy the full brunt of one of your analyses and any recommendations you care to make on trimming; I have the feeling that this will be useful to Cindy and will prompt discussion on this between her, her veterinarian, and her farrier.

Now, we also need to talk a little bit about causes, so that you don't have another horse in the future who also winds up with a foot lameness that never needed to happen, like this one. It should have been clear to you, Cindy, from observing two strong men in our recent class struggling with all their might to pull the hoof capsule off, even after the carcass limb had been in boiling water for half an hour -- it should be obvious how very firmly all the structures of the distal limb in the horse are bound together, and what tremendous force must therefore be necessary to tear the DDF.

Where this force comes from, of course, is the mass of the horse itself and its own strength producing momentum as she courses around the barrels. I was interested in her pigeon-toed stance because this is indeed often a sign of athletic capacity or agility with the forelimbs; toed-straight-ahead stance is not to be preferred in actual fact. So the pigeon-toes, far from being a detriment, are actually a sign that she does not go with chronically tight pectorals.

We can normally assume that the horse that toes out (i.e. the horse that feels it necessary to protect itself when it moves by holding its elbows in toward the body by effort of the pectoral muscles) is the one who habitually travels on the forehand, and conversely, the one that stands like your mare does does not go heavy on the forehand. However, your description of her turning technique tells me that she does, nonetheless, corner mainly by use of her forelimbs. You can certainly post a photo of her going around a barrel, so as to permit me to check this, but a priori from your description that's what it sounds like.

When a horse turns tightly and at speed, anytime its inside forelimb is grounded, thanks to momentum its butt will tend to be carried outward, so that its butt goes around the barrel on a track of larger diameter than its forehand does. When this occurs there are tremendous forces of torque acting upon the forelimb, and it was exactly at such a moment that your mare tore the DDF.

The pigeon toes do have one negative impact with this, though, which is clear from viewing the rear-view XRays -- while your farrier has been very good at maintaining a plumbline alignment of the pastern and coffin bones, and therefore even pressure in the distal joints, the mare breaks inward at the ankles. The breaking-inward contributes to her appearance of being pigeon-toed but is actually a quite separate factor originating not way up high in the shoulder joints but rather right at the ankle joints. This is a strain to the ankles of course -- meaning primarily the collateral ligaments and the suspensory branches -- but it also means unequal medio-lateral pressure on the flexor tendons. This must have contributed to the tear.

But to return to the topic of poor cornering technique, with the horse laying on the inside shoulder -- if you're like 99% of all the people I work with at riding clinics, Cindy, you haven't really noticed this, and further, you haven't noticed it where it would really count, which is to say, at slow speed, and when you have the mare on the longe line. You are right to observe that it's better turning technique that wins barrel races, not straightaway speed; but the question then is, how to teach better turning technique. My next goal with you therefore is to get you to select some other one of your horses, some one that is not lame, and we'll work to teach you how to know when the animal's weight is on the wrong side, and its axial body therefore wrongside-out, on the longeing circle. We will then proceed to teaching you this when you are topside. Pursuant to that, if you're interested, you might review everything that has been said so far in the thread entitled "Is this toe-first striking", where I am teaching yet another student how to ride and what the steps have to be in training. -- Dr. Deb

chebert16
Member
 

Joined: Wed Oct 16th, 2013
Location:  
Posts: 35
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Nov 10th, 2013 12:43 am
 Quote  Reply 
Wow- thanks so much for that response Dr. Deb! I will read this many more times, I am sure- and I am so glad to have it all explained to me this way. Every thing you wrote made absolute sense. I have neither vet nor farrier anymore for this mare- and I honestly did not know their reasoning for shoeing her so short- it looked flat stupid to me, I always figured a horse in balance wasn't going to rip shoes off, so obviously they weren't ever confident in their balancing skills and thus the unsightly short shoe job.

I have lots of young horses to start on the barrels, and my number one priority for them first and foremost is to teach them proper collection, I've been reading your articles on this that you gave to us in class, is there an entire book you could recommend on this topic? I know you mentioned some names in class- but what books specifically would be the best to learn from as far as teaching proper collection? Now that I understand the anatomy- and I have learned first hand how riding a horse on the forehand is so detrimental to their well being, I know I am ready to learn this- the true form, that is. (I've learned plenty about the wrong way to do this, and it, needless to say, wasn't helpful).

thanks again for your help- you are very kind to take the time! I am going back to read what you wrote again right now-

chebert16
Member
 

Joined: Wed Oct 16th, 2013
Location:  
Posts: 35
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Nov 10th, 2013 03:32 pm
 Quote  Reply 
So this is a pic I think shows how she gets on her forehand- and consequently, damages her front feet. But on the other hand, she's never had hock arthritis like a lot of hind end users have. So which makes me wonder, in this particular event, is it ideal to have a horse use both front and hind somewhat equally in the turn? Or is it even possible? Perhaps the only answer is to begin with as near conformationally correct prospect to begin with, and teach proper collection?

Attachment: _DSC0067.jpg (Downloaded 235 times)

chebert16
Member
 

Joined: Wed Oct 16th, 2013
Location:  
Posts: 35
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Nov 11th, 2013 03:17 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Just finished re-reading the article "True Collection" that you wrote- haven't had time to go through the toe first landing thread, but I am very interested in learning all that I can about the head twirling- the scalene and the other little muscle down at the base I forgot the name of. I have been to some really good horsemanship clinics- and nothing has flipped the lightbulb switch on for me like your article did- so now I am dying to learn more. Makes me re-think everything I've done the past 30 years with my horses- how the heck did I miss all of this?? Anyway- thanks!!

AdamTill
Member
 

Joined: Tue Mar 27th, 2007
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posts: 289
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Nov 13th, 2013 12:52 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Apologies that I don't have the time to do more right now, but I'm not sure this requires a full markup anyway. I think what's happening is that the short base of support from the shoe is causing the heel to run under. In conjunction with the non-relieved quarters, that's what's bubbling the hairline.

Restricting the growth pattern like this would predictably lead to caudal heel pain.

I suspect that an attempt to match the appearance of a high/low pair is not helping the situation (with the more arched foot being the high foot). A horse will almost always move more symmetrically if the feet are addressed individually, rather than someone trying to match them. Given that their asymmetry is reflective of issues further up the limb, you risk aggravating the situation by working against the horse's adaptations (to a point).

This would be a case where a month or two out of shoes would probably cause things to relax a fair bit, if the horse is comfortable that way.

Last edited on Wed Nov 13th, 2013 12:57 pm by AdamTill

chebert16
Member
 

Joined: Wed Oct 16th, 2013
Location:  
Posts: 35
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Fri Nov 22nd, 2013 03:34 pm
 Quote  Reply 
thank you Adam! I plan on leaving her turned out without shoes for the winter, and possible all next summer while she is hopefully carrying a foal. I have been reluctant to pull her shoe for the past three years, because I was told that she needed this "corrective shoeing" to be sound. I am hoping mother nature will encourage the heel in the left and digital cushion to grow, to perhaps the point that if I decide to run her again in two years she will be sound and able to wear a regular shoe. Guess only time will tell-
Thanks for your input, I have appreciated it!
:)


 Current time is 08:59 am
Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2   




Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez