ESI Q and A Forums Home
 Search       Members   Calendar   Help   Home 
Search by username
Not logged in - Login | Register 

Jineen's Thread -- Now it's about the feet
 Moderated by: DrDeb  
 New Topic   Reply   Print 
AuthorPost
Obie
Member
 

Joined: Fri Sep 28th, 2007
Location: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posts: 57
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Dec 1st, 2013 05:20 pm
 Quote  Reply 
I'm feeling that I probably waited too long to address my horses issues with his chewing. The symptoms were at a much lesser degree. Until recently, and now I am just sick about it. I hope that he can recover at this point. I do know when he went in this last time (about two weeks ago), and had all the work done on his molars, he did seem like he was chewing a little easier afterwards.(now no more cutting on his inner cheek teeth from the spikes!).But just two days later he continued having the knocking sounds in his right side TMJ and still airy sounds in front teeth. Where I keep my horse now there is a huge field with good long stem grass that I let him eat to wear down his incisors. My horse is in a nice place with a large 50 foot paddock connected to his stall. I am going to put a blanket on my horse as the temperature is going to get down in the low 20's and his stall can get pretty good east winds coming from the gorge. I want to make sure I can retain his heat so he doesn't lose more weight. I have a flannel pull over blanket and will put a lightweight rain sheet on him. I will keep you posted as far as my progress finding someone to help my horse.

Thank you,
Linda

Obie
Member
 

Joined: Fri Sep 28th, 2007
Location: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posts: 57
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Dec 1st, 2013 05:54 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Oh, hello DarlingLil,
Yes I have been giving Obie Mg, but stopped giving it recently so that the vets could get a true reading of my horses issues. I do know that it has helped reduce the swelling of his gums and he did feel better on it. I just did not want to mask any pertinent information for the vets. I was really thinking my horse had this incisor resorption issue, but now realize that the focus is more than ever the anterior/posterior balance of his incisors and molars.(Not sure if that is proper terminology.) I don't know how I could get so muddled with all of this. I am putting Obie right back on Mg. I currently give him coconut meal(copra.) Was giving one cup in pm, but just started to one cup am and one cup pm feeding. He gets about 2 1/2 teaspoons of salt either real salt or celtic salt) in each feeding and of course now back on Mg. I have to find a way to mask the taste of the Mg(ancient minerals brand bath salts), as he is becoming more and more fussy about eating anything with a new taste to it. He will finish the copra w/salt but he is slow going at that. I added the powdered tropical flavored bute into his copra but he would not eat it, so I am leary that he will now go back to eating the Mg added in copra. I will start back slowly on the Mg. Any suggestions as to what to put in his feed to mask any taste changes? I tried molasses before, but he did not like it. Kind of weird hah!

Thanks for your comments,
Linda

DarlingLil
Member
 

Joined: Wed Jan 25th, 2012
Location: Michigan USA
Posts: 64
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Dec 1st, 2013 07:26 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Maybe applesauce or Cocosoya oil? The new hay blocks from purina are supposedly very good for giving meds in. I'm feeding redmond salt and magnesium in a serving of low starch soyhull based feed. They really go for that stuff. Perhaps honey, or chopped apples and carrots? My friend has to give pergolide with a chopped apple. Also start with a small amount it is nasty tasting I hear.

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3232
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Dec 2nd, 2013 05:23 am
 Quote  Reply 
Obie: A magnesium supplement would not have "masked" any issue relevant to your horse's teeth or any other condition. Magnesium is a necessary and normal nutrient in the horse or human diet, and the reason you give magnesium is that the diet is (commonly, in many areas of the country) deficient in it. The reason your horse's gum condition improved on the magnesium is proof that your horse suffers from a deficiency of magnesium, and it indicates that you're foolish to let him go off of it.

Magnesium oxide is a completely tasteless white powder. Mag chloride, such as Pauline advocates and which I also think is a much better idea, is bitter. However, if you follow Pauline's recommendations you're going to start with smaller amounts which can simply be added to the horse's pelleted feed or grain feed. He will very likely get used to the taste and then will tolerate higher amounts as you increase the dosage gradually over time. You can very well ignore the fussiness: just provide the food, and inform the horse that that is all he is going to get, and give him time to eat it, and he will eat it.

As to turning the horse out on grass in order to 'wear down his incisors': not gonna happen. The horse will never catch up that way, in other words, it will be impossible for him to remove the excess length to the incisors, which has accumulated over the time since he was six years old. At best he will not get any worse, i.e. he will not accumulate any MORE excess length when on grass. You must instead find a dental practitioner willing and able to reduce the incisors.

Keeping an old horse out of the wind is a good idea if you do it by means of a building which provides a wall that blocks the wind. Blanketing is often not a good idea. If the blanket you put on the horse is heavy, so that it smashes down his fur, the net result will be that he will be colder than if you had not blanketed him. If you have a lightweight down-filled or polyester-filled blanket -- these are often sold as 'underblankets' -- then that's what you should use. I am assuming in saying this that your horse is not showing any symptoms of Cushings disease, so that he has grown a normal winter coat. The normal winter coat is all any horse ever needs, so long as (1) he is otherwise healthy and (2) you do not come out to the barn at 4 a.m. and find him shivering. If you do find him shivering, then blanket with the light blanket as above described, and provide the building or the stall that shelters him from the wind. -- Dr. Deb

ruth
Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 20th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 69
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Dec 2nd, 2013 11:45 am
 Quote  Reply 
I dissolve mag chloride in warm water, mix a bit of copra (ground coconut) meal in the water, and poor the resulting mush on unmolassed chop - works with my picky horses.

Obie
Member
 

Joined: Fri Sep 28th, 2007
Location: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posts: 57
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Dec 7th, 2013 01:02 am
 Quote  Reply 
Dr. Deb, I have a question.
I have heard some DVM's talk about incisor reductions that have caused infections and the death of some horses. I am trying to understand this. Do you now why this may be?

Thanks,
Linda

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3232
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Dec 7th, 2013 06:53 am
 Quote  Reply 
Obie, please take the trouble to read my reply to Linda on the previous page, where I begin by telling her never to permit anybody to extract the incisors.

The concerns you are hearing are entirely trumped-up B.S. promulgated by one certain veterinarian in Australia who has a short fuse and a vested interest. He and his students have been going around giving false and misleading "demonstrations" of how lay dentists "commonly" kill teeth.

As I mentioned to Linda, this is not going to happen with any COMPETENT practitioner. Yes there have been lay dentists who reduced teeth too young or too much, and did open the top of the pulp tube and thereby did lead to infection and/or the death of the tooth. But yes also, there have been veterinarian dentists who have done the same thing. The most incompetent horse dentist I ever saw perform work was a licensed veterinarian.

If you don't understand the terminology or have a clear picture of what I mean by the "pulp tube", Obie, this is what the wicked veterinarian of whom I am speaking, he and his students, this is what they are counting on -- that you wouldn't know the difference between the infundibulum and the pulp tube. It does indeed involve a somewhat specialized knowledge of horse anatomy to know this difference. I'll try to post a picture in the next few days that shows the difference so that you'll know if it ever comes up if somebody is trying to scam you or lie to you.

As I've mentioned before, MOST veterinarians are both ethical and kind, not to mention qualified and competent. Many lay dental practitioners are, too. It is the fringe element in both groups who unfortunately make all the trouble for the rest of us. -- Dr. Deb

Obie
Member
 

Joined: Fri Sep 28th, 2007
Location: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posts: 57
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Dec 7th, 2013 03:07 pm
 Quote  Reply 
This is all good. I was just stumped by the quote "incisor reduction can kill your horse." Yes, of course infection would be killing your horse. In the same sense if they do not address the incisors then there can be malocclusions in the cheek teeth that could cause infection also. I'm thinking abscesses. Could ulcerations on the inside of the mouth also cause infection and death of horses?
I am still searching for some one to work on my horses incisors. It is slow going. After calling some two times and getting no response, I just move on to the next. Day by day I am getting more empowered. It is good feeling but at the same time is dis-heartening. Dr. Deb, I am thinking of getting a couple books about equine dentistry. You mentioned Dr. Tom Allen from Missouri. Would his book or Dr. Jack Easley's book be the first one I should get?

Thanks again for all of your help. I am looking forward to your photos of the difference of the infundibulum and pulp tube.
Linda

Obie
Member
 

Joined: Fri Sep 28th, 2007
Location: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posts: 57
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Dec 7th, 2013 04:59 pm
 Quote  Reply 
I guess I am not listening or thinking very well. I realize now what it means by killing the teeth. It means that the pulp tube or cavity is exposed, causing infection. This, I believe is because the pulp cavity has a blood supply. I'm gonna get this!

Linda

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3232
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Dec 7th, 2013 08:24 pm
 Quote  Reply 
You should get Dr. Tom Allen's book, Linda; it is intended for a lay readership as well as to help veterinarians. It has clear illustrations and good photographs, and explains the concepts perfectly. Once you get that book, you won't have most of the questions that are bothering you now.

And yes, any infection anywhere can POTENTIALLY kill a horse. Not very likely in most cases nowadays, but infections should always be treated. -- Dr. Deb

Obie
Member
 

Joined: Fri Sep 28th, 2007
Location: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posts: 57
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Dec 30th, 2013 03:56 am
 Quote  Reply 
Well I found a vet. to work on my horse's incisors. I gave him the forum discussion on this subject, that you advised, Dr.Deb. He reduced the incisors by an 1/8th of an inch. He thought he needed more reduction but would have it done gradually, as he thought it would cause jaw and TMJ pain. My horse is already feeling better. The gum swelling has gone down significantly. This is probably a combination of the incisors reduced and the magnesium. We could clearly see that when the insisors were touching that his premolars were showing a good 1/4 inch of space. His chewing has gone more rostral caudal and not show much up-and-down chewing.


Dr. Deb would be able to send the x-ray pictures of the difference of the infundibulum and the pulp cavity that you mentioned. I hoping to soon be able ride in a snaffle bit again, but my horse is still a little worried about his teeth. I currently am using a side pull and he does ok.
Just wanted to give an update.
Thanks,
Linda


 Current time is 10:36 pm
Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4   




Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez