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DrDeb
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17th, 2012 11:53 pm |
Sarah, vinegar of any type contains high amounts of acetic acid. Therefore if you put it into either feed or water, what it is doing is acidizing (i.e. making it more acidic), not more alkali (i.e. less acidic).
I do appreciate your suggestion, though, about "MagRestore" and will go look it up to see what it's all about.
Pauline, you will find this interesting too: I've recently asked my M.D. and my vet both, to look me up a source of Mg gluconate. In the U.S. there is one over-the-counter human product which contains a mixture of Mg gluconate and Mg Oxide, but the doc and the pharmacist have both told me that pure Mg gluconate is not available either over the counter or by prescription. This is interesting as Blalock prescribes it and suggests dosages in his "Excitotoxins" book. I am interested in Mg gluconate as being probably as tasty -- or perhaps we should say tasteLESS -- as the Mg aspartate and equally bio-available. My next step is to go back to my doc and see if he'll contact a compounding pharmacy, as opposed to the chain-type drugstore where the pharmacist works.
Can you comment on Sarah's idea that the malate form of Mg is highly bio-available? Would it be safe, or fall into the same category of toxicity as Mg aspartate?
And Sarah, I also want to say that yes, MSM is a commonly available and frequently used supplement intended to relieve arthritic symptoms. However, I myself personally, and I think also many other people as well as horses, are allergic to it. The underlying cause is that MSM, like glucosamine sulfate which is the powdered form commonly available, are bound to or contain sulfur. I also cannot safely eat dried apricots or dried peaches, because they coat them with sulfur-powder to inhibit their getting moldy during the drying process, and it is the sulfur to which I am allergic. Glucosamine sulfate and MSM actually make my joints swell. Further, there is only weak evidence that either MSM or chondroitin have any positive benefits -- MSM being perhaps a little better than chondroitin, probably because it is a little more digestible. Glucosamine hydrochloride however is another matter. It can be fed as a liquid or also given as an intramuscular injection, and particularly when injected -- because this bypasses the digestive tract -- it has demonstrable positive effects both short-term and long-term.
I would further be very VERY cautious about using calcium derived from bentonite. "Calcium bentonite" is not a substance in the same way that "magnesium chloride" is a substance, i.e. in the latter example the magnesium and the chloride are chemically bound together to form a single molecule. "Calcium bentonite" is a manufacturer's term meaning that the calcium in the product is derived from a form of bentonite in which calcium is the dominant atom. Bentonite is a mineral -- indeed, it is the mineral or "earth" from which we get aluminum, i.e. it is aluminum ore. Therefore, you cannot feed "calcium bentonite" without also feeding aluminum. Aluminum is a poison and should not only never be fed, it should not even be allowed to come into contact with the skin (I believe research that says to avoid, for example, deodorant products containing any compound containing aluminum).
And while we are on the subject, let me also mention that I know there is widespread belief in the benefits of ingesting silver or salts of silver. This is just as nuts as ingesting salts of aluminum or mercury: they are poison. Gold is safer but we don't see too much of that particular fad lately, do we, considering the stuff is now over $1600 per ounce. Most people have probably got more value in their dental fillings these days than they do in their retirement account.
Finally as to free-choice minerals....they are also a waste of money, effort, and time. Good experimental studies have shown that horses will preferentially lick whichever of the trays happens to contain the most sodium chloride as either an additive or a contaminant. NaCl is what they need the most of, by far, and this is what their senses can detect. There is no known mechanism by which either human or horse can detect a need for magnesium, iron, or chromium, for example; this is why many people today have gotten critically low on magnesium, because they didn't rush right out and get themselves a big salad of rhaspberry leaves as soon as they started to get low on magnesium. But when the weather is hot, you'll see everybody in your local diner or truck stop using that ol' salt shaker -- nobody told them to do that except the innate instinct to replenish NaCl.
So Sarah, this is not to negate your efforts as a counsellor which I think are sincere and well-intended, but I would not follow most of your advice, and I would repeat to you again in particular, that you need to improve your knowledge and education before you make suggestions regarding herbs, additives, supplements, or diet. Come here rather, Sarah, to learn from Pauline.
What I would like to encourage is that any type of supplementation (1) be based on the real needs of the animal, as far as possible demonstrated by careful survey of the existing pasturage and feeding regimen; and (2) that any changes that are made are absolutely the minimum, and done one at a time, so that either positve results, negative results, or lack of results can be documented. What to AVOID is the shotgun approach in any form.
"Supplementation" is in fact a recent fad, of which all horse owners need to beware, and beware of the "pusher" who comes in the form of the massage therapist or "lifestyle counsellor" who is no better-trained than the "chiropractor" who hangs out behind the rodeo chutes performing spectacular, expensive, and destructive high-velocity long-lever "adjustments". It is true that our soils are no longer as rich as they once were, but depletion varies a great deal from one area to another, so that good horsekeeping is more specific to each region today than ever. -- Dr. Deb
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Pauline Moore
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18th, 2012 04:06 am |
Dr Deb – You can buy magnesium gluconate in either capsule or powder form from a company based in Oregon: http://purebulk.com/magnesium-gluconate-gelatin-caps
Magnesium malate, magnesium citrate and magnesium gluconate are all forms of magnesium that are bound to an acid, ie malic acid, citric acid or gluconic acid. All are considered to be highly absorbable, safe, forms of magnesium. The gluconate form is thought to be less potentially irritating to the gut so more can be ingested. I’m not aware of any toxicity issues with any form of magnesium other than aspartate and glutamate/glutamine. For myself, I take mag citrate (because it’s easy to pop a pill) and also use mag chloride transdermally.
Your comments re colloidal silver are echoed by Dr Robert Thompson who warns against all colloidal minerals because they cannot enter cells. He also does not recommend chelated minerals, except for certain short-term use, as it is much easier to overdose on a mineral that is chelated to an amino acid.
This is one of the reasons I like to use magnesium chloride for the horses; it is in ionic form so the body can easily excrete any excess. Another advantage is that mag chloride also contains the full range of trace minerals naturally found in seawater (as explained on today’s new thread about unrefined sea salt).
Sarah - the list of substances that can reduce magnesium absorption is almost endless, which is one reason why our horses are deficient. Along with excess calcium, potassium is a big problem. Some pasture grasses accumulate very high levels of potassium in cloudy weather so the last thing any horse needs is more potassium from ACV, regardless of their HYPP status. For horses drinking excessively alkaline water, adding ascorbic acid (vit C) could be a safer way to bring water pH closer to neutral. Water pH should be tested over several days to get a consistent reading before altering pH in either direction.
What is your reference for using red raspberry leaves as a magnesium source, other than being green? All of my reference books cite this herb primarily for use in last trimester pregnancy and first week of lactation, and possibly for hormonal disturbances in mares. It is also listed as being high in iron and calcium so may not help with magnesium absorption if fed continuously.
Best wishes
Pauline
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sarahmorloff
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18th, 2012 05:55 am |
Pauline - I really love all your info on herbs/stretching as these are things I practice in daily life with myself and for my clients... From what I have gathered on Rasp. Leaf (first when having my own kids then onto horses), it provides a rich source of iron, calcium, manganese and mag. (also several vit.). It is helpful in the last trimester due to being helpful in strengthening the uterine muscles so that during a contraction, the muscles work together and recover quickly etc... Upon doing research (via, books, internet, herb teachers), I started to apply this logic to my own horses... People buy "Mare Magic" which is only Rasp. Leaf, for hormones, moody/uptight mares. I have seen raving hormonal mares come back to earth within 2 weeks, I've had rock hard horses soften with a loading dose, we've had suspected ulcers (suspecting the cal for this one) go away... So for me beyond researching it, the proof is in the horse =D... of course I completely agree that anything can be "over done" too much of a good thing is still too much =D
DrDeb -
I have my own believes when it come to offering free choice minerals... a salt block is after all "free choice". I just prefer them to be separated. I always offer my salt (loose trace mineral) separate (much like people would with a pure white block), for most of the horses I've seen on these systems they leave the salt alone but a good lick and then go after the others seasonally. I don't like fillers and don't like salt mixed with the minerals exactly for the reasons you mentioned.
Thank you for the info on MSM being a possible allergen for some. I have heard of Glucosamine causing reactions but not Menthylsulfonymethane. I am wondering if it is the same form used for dried fruit... or if it is just similar enough?
As for the Clay... After months of searching, I cannot find one place where it states that we can actually absorb the aluminum that is inside of it (as that is a huge deal breaker for me)... I did find several explanations to this that I will put into quotations (sorry they are so long, I tried to narrow it down but didn't want to change things) I also, try to find articles/research that are from people that are not extremists or selling things or from Holistic vets / Dr.s... I have also learned a while back that it is used in grains (binders), make up, pills, water filters, to clarify wines/oils etc. so I would think we'd be absorbing the al. from those products already if we were (?). Also that it has been documented that undomesticated animals will search, dig and eat it if they have gotten into trouble with something toxic/poisonous. I would love to read about dangers other than constipation/indigestion (when used wrong), as I really cannot find scientific documentation that we absorb the al. Also, would like to clarify that I would never recommend this as a mineral source, but strictly for heavy metal toxicity and def. ONLY short term.
“Elements on the periodic table, including aluminum hydroxide, lead, copper, chromium, mercury, strontium, etc., in the natural form, are totally different than these same elements after they are transformed by industrial processes for manufacturing and commerce. The molecular rearrangement of these elements in the refining process isolates aluminum molecules for example, to make airplane parts or frying pans for commerce. This refining procedure changes the original natural elemental molecular structure by industrial processing through rearranging the natural elemental form to an isolated man made form. As a result of this process, many times this alteration of elements transform them into elements that are sometimes harmful or toxic to life forms.
Certain edible clays and soils in the natural and unaltered form are inert and safe for life, like food and water (H2O). Water is a natural compound and if one were to separate the hydrogen molecule from water by the refining process, it could be used to fuel cars of the future or make bombs and therefore is not only harmful and toxic but lethal. If one were to take a spoonful of earth from their own back yard and have it chemically analyzed, they would find many of these same elements. When chemically rearranging these elements by the refinement process, they also become harmful or highly toxic. The elements on the periodic table may be altered by many industrial processes through molecular isolation (separation) and further combined with other elements and chemical procedures to make products. An example in metals, alloys area among the most common combination for things like tool steel in knifes and machines. Many factory or man made drugs also fall into this group. Many times both are harmful or even toxic to plant, animals, humans as well as the environment itself.”
“Smectite clays comprise 99% of all clays used for health purposes today. Smectites are unique in that they swell while absorbing and adsorbing positive charged ions. It is the favored clay for health and dietary use as well as for many industrial applications.
Smectites are more complicated clays and have a higher exchange capacity than the other six family groups of clay. It has the unique ability to adsorb and absorb toxins at a greater rate than any other group.
Within the Smectite family there are hundreds of different types of clays, each consisting of between 8 and 145 minerals. The most common sub family is Montmorillonite. Further along the Montmorillonite family tree are the various Bentonites. It’s from the Smectite family tree that we find the broadest spectrum healing modality on our planet – Calcium Bentonite Clay.
Montmorillonite Clay was named after the town of Montmorillon in France where it was first identified. Its common name today is French Green and you will see it packaged under several different brands today and available in many health food stores. Your green swelling clays are known for their remarkable healing properties. Not to say that non-swelling clays are not good also but due to the molecular makeup the swelling clays have a greater drawing or detoxing potential.”
Oils/Food Markets: Bentonite is utilized in the removal of impurities in oils where its adsorptive properties are crucial in the processing of edible oils and fats (Soya/palm/canola oil). In drinks such as beer, wine and mineral water, and in products like sugar or honey, bentonite is used as a clarification agent.
Agriculture: Bentonite is used as an animal feed supplement, as a pelletizing aid in the production of animal feed pellets, as well as a flowability aid for unconsolidated feed ingredients such as soy meal. It also is used as an ion exchanger for improvement and conditioning of the soil. When thermally treated, it can be used as a porous ceramic carrier for various herbicides and pesticides.
Pharmaceuticals, Cosmetics and Medical Markets: Bentonite is used as filler in pharmaceuticals, and due to its absorption/adsorption functions, it allows paste formation. Such applications include industrial protective creams, calamine lotion, wet compresses, and antiirritants for eczema. In medicine, bentonite is used as an antidote in heavy metal poisoning. Personal care products such as mud packs, sunburn paint, baby and facepowders, and face creams may all contain bentonite.
Detergents: Laundry detergents and liquid hand cleansers/soaps rely on the inclusion of bentonite, in order to remove the impurities in solvents and to soften the fabrics.
Sarah =D
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DrDeb
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18th, 2012 07:01 am |
You notice, Sarah, that many of the quotes you present relate to stuff that is certainly not meant to be eaten, i.e. laundry detergent, calamine lotion, and so forth.
And yes, bentonite is widely used in the animal feed industry; less so in the human food industry. And yes, we DO absorb aluminum from these "binders", as well as transdermally i.e. in deodorants, makeup, and powders.
It is precisely to avoid such binders and adulterants that Pauline is telling people here to get the unrefined sea salt -- because it does not contain bentonite as an agent to prevent the salt crystals caking. -- Dr. Deb
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rachel
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19th, 2012 02:10 pm |
I guess that now after all this time is is time for me to report in.
Meiko the pony still hasnt been ridden, alas I havent had anyone home at the same time in daylight hours as a safety number, so my observations are all subject to change when I ride him next. ( I want the safety number in case he or me has a problem after such a long break, taking into account his very low vision in one eye and blindness in the other)
Meiko is active, runs and bucks, rolls and carries on like a real horse! He also still runs into the trees, and his stable, but so far hasnt done any damage worse than pride. So my observations are that he is much more active, with less time spent recovering on the floor of his stable. He hasnt been stiff either, except when he has flipped or fallen over some inconsequensial thing that may or may not have tripped him.
I have found he did not like the increase of salt to 2 table spoons a meal, at all and refused to eat the feeds with the increased salt, but did happily eat one tbsp a feed. He loves the copra and can smell it inside the garage 200 mts away when I am wetting it. His stools have also improved. I think it may be because he is currently in lock up with a consistent big bale of grass hay, from the same supplier, so it may actually be my pasture that is causing that problem, mind you he has had a couple squirty days even on the hay and hard feed only.
I have tentatively arranged an understanding friend to be my safety number for the next fortnight when both our schedules and the weather suit, and am looking forward to it. Recently the ground has been far too slippery to ride at home.
Thank you for your time Dr Deb and Pauline!
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rachel
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| Posted: Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 07:14 am |
Good news!
My beloved pony is back in work, and sound. Thank you to everyone here who has helped on my journey with Meiko. I am so glad for the advice not to give up yet, thank you!
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tem
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| Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2012 05:39 am |
Hello Pauline / Dr Deb
Apologies if I have missed this in the tread (new to forums) but how much and how would you use / administer magnesium chloride to a horse -
thanks Tem
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DrDeb
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| Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2012 05:44 am |
Tem, EMail office@equinestudies.org and we will send you Pauline's paper on Magnesium, which will get you started on this. -- Dr. Deb
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LynnF
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2012 05:58 pm |
I think another thread already discussed the problems caused by horses drinking water that is too acidic. Here Pauline says "For horses drinking excessively alkaline water, adding ascorbic acid (vit C) could be a safer way to bring water pH closer to neutral. Water pH should be tested over several days to get a consistent reading before altering pH in either direction."
I live in Central Texas where the water is very alkaline. My water tested 8.4 with the pool test strip, while rainwater tested 6.5. We all drink this same water. I'm curious about the types of problems it may cause.
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Pauline Moore
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2012 11:07 am |
Hi Lynn
There is a very good Acid-Base tutorial on the Anaesthesia Education Website at this link: http://www.anaesthesiamcq.com/AcidBaseBook/ABindex.php
You will be able to read about the different types of acidosis and alkalosis – metabolic and respiratory. It’s a very complex subject, made no easier by opposing viewpoints from numerous biochemistry experts; The Great Trans-Atlantic Acid-Base Debate, summarized at the end of the tutorial, has been running since the mid-1960’s without resolution.
Human blood has to be maintained within a very tight range, pH 7.35 to 7.45, while horse blood has an even smaller range, pH 7.42 to 7.45. Trainers of racehorses are very much aware of this requirement, and the rapid drop in athletic ability if blood pH is permitted to become too acidic or too alkaline.
The article below is written by a veterinarian who treats metabolic problems in endurance horses, and includes a good description of one form of alkalosis:
‘Metabolic Diseases In Long Distance Performance Horses’ http://www.albertaequine.com/caret001.asp
As I understand it, to maintain blood pH within such a tiny range, the horse must not allow ingested food and water to pass through the intestinal wall into the blood without first being adjusted to the appropriate pH. Acidic substances are initially neutralized by bicarbonates secreted in the stomach and duodenum. The kidneys also play a vital role in maintaining acid-base balance in the body. Water with a high pH will usually contain high levels of alkaline minerals, often calcium. That excess alkalinity cannot be allowed to raise the blood pH, so the minerals must be excreted via the kidneys and urine. It is hard work for the kidneys to be constantly having to neutralize excessive acids or alkalis from food and water.
I have seen several horses respond quite dramatically when their acidic drinking water is neutralized with sodium bicarbonate. I don’t see quite so many horses in this area who drink highly alkaline water so can’t be certain of the effects other than suppressing magnesium uptake if the alkalinity is from calcium. Just a few days ago I was chatting with Jenny Paterson about this matter; she believes some of the problems frequently seen in NZ, such as head-flicking, are due to alkalosis from high pasture potassium. We’d both like to have a clearer understanding of exactly what’s happening as it has not always been possible to replicate results.
As with every other aspect of our horses' diets, I don't think it is possible to adopt a rigid formula based on generalised information. Many of the people who contact me for help have already been down the path of micro-analysing every mouthful of feed, but still have lame horses. Better outcomes can be obtained if we can learn to really 'look' at our own horses, and listen to what their bodies, feet and movement are telling us.
Best wishes
Pauline
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geedubya
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13th, 2013 05:28 pm |
Well, first post. This has been a great thread for me. We have an IR horse with chronic laminitis. Dr. Deb had advised us to test our trough water for acidity, and peruse Pauline's magnesium paper. We've now done both (water was not acidic), and my wife has ordered MaCl. From reading this thread, I have answers to a couple questions, but am seeking reassurance that I've read and interpreted correctly. We currently feed a product that has magnesium oxide and magnesium proteinate, and the dose we use provides 28g of magox and 4g of mag proteinate, along with some chromium. Pauline's paper states that the MaCl flakes she uses contain 156 mg of elemental Ma per 1g of flakes, and that a relatively heavy dose would be 60g flakes, or 9360 mg of Ma. My first question was why the 28g of MaOx and 4g of MaProteinate wasn't a good high dose, but reading herein I see that it may be due to both the percentage of elemental Ma (60%) times the absorption rate (4%), or that in essence we are only feeding about 768mg of elemental Ma. Correct?
Secondly, we were thinking of stopping the current product when starting the MaCl, but also in Pauline's paper, she suggests that feeding some MaOx at the same time can be beneficial, so we will think we should not stop with our current product when we start the MaCl. Correct?
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DrDeb
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13th, 2013 08:45 pm |
Gee: Correct on all counts. Commercial products, especially if mixtures, frequently do not provide an effective dose. This is very much true for glucosamine supplementation but also true for many other things.
You could, of course, increase the amount you're feeding of the commercial product until you got to the effective dosage that Pauline recommends -- that would be easy enough to calculate. However, since it is a mixture you'd not only be increasing the Mg but also the Cr, which might exceed safe limits (I don't know that it would, because I don't know what the safe limits or toxicity threshhold for Cr is).
Increasing the amount of the commercial mixture you're feeding might also not be cost-effective; you can also figure this out. Is it more expensive to feed enough of the commercial mix to get a therapeutic result, or would it be cheaper to buy MgCl flakes?
Another consideration is bioavailability, i.e. what the absorption rate actually is. For MgCl it's pretty high, for MgO it's not (that's why MgO so easily produces diarrhea, which again is why it's the primary ingredient in products like 'Milk of Magnesia').
In my own discussions with Pauline, but also with Marit Arana who is our local Ph.D. nutrition advisor and an old friend of mine, they tell me that there is also special benefit in feeding the chloride ion, i.e. that the Mg is bound to Cl and not to aspartate, citrate, oxide, or what-have-you.
And speaking of that -- you should also actually monitor your horse's NaCl intake, i.e. how fast he eats his salt block. It was easy for me to do this with Ollie because he lives alone in a private pen. If you have yours in with other horses, you'll have to take an average I guess. Weigh a brand-new salt block before you put it in there, then let 30 days elapse and weigh whatever remains, if any, then divide and find out what the average daily consumption has been. 4TBSP is NOT what "any horse" will eat; what one horse eats per day of ordinary salt varies enormously. This may be one thing at the root of the apparent intractability of your horse's hard crest and tendency to easily become laminitic, despite your persistent and intelligent efforts --- he may not really be eating much salt, and if that's what you determine, you'll have to do as our friend Jenny Paterson in New Zealand does, and salt his feed.
Pauline, can you jump in here on this query? I've seen this guy's horse and I kid you not, you'll never see such an IR prone horse in your life. They're already doing a lot of the right things but the crest is still hard as a board and he teeters continually on the brink of laminitis. He lives not in a drylot per se but out on the local prairie-top in a paddock with a couple of others equally founder-prone -- the paddock contains literally nothing this time of year but sunburned wild oats (about like straw, cows starve on it) plus a low percentage of totally inedible weeds, which they do not eat. There is nothing toxic that I could see. What's to do?? -- Dr. Deb
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Pauline Moore
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14th, 2013 02:50 am |
Hello Gee
Since writing that article late 2010, it has become ever more apparent that optimizing the benefits of magnesium for adult horses is directly dependent on minimizing the amount of calcium in the diet. As calcium inhibits magnesium absorption, dietary calcium from any source (feed, supplements, water) will reduce the effectiveness of any magnesium supplements fed.
If your horses’ drinking water is not acidic, then it is likely whatever degree of alkalinity is present in the water is coming from calcium. As your horse appears to have severe signs of IR, it may well be that he is severely magnesium deficient. Dr Lawrence Resnick and his research team at Cornell established in the 1980s that ‘low cellular magnesium causes metabolic syndrome’ and that ‘insulin increases magnesium loss’. It may pay you to get a water analysis to determine the calcium content, and even consider switching to rainwater if that is possible.
It will also be essential for you to eliminate all excess calcium from feed sources. Look closely at any processed feeds you are using, scrutinize labels for added calcium or limestone and do not feed hay that is high in calcium, eg alfalfa or clover. Similarly, beet products are naturally high in calcium so will not be helpful even if low in sugar. Also be wary of any feeds based on soybean or soy hulls because of the thyroid-suppressing effect of soy isoflavones. The last thing any IR horse needs is an underactive thyroid. Can’t tell you how many stories I hear about horses improving dramatically once soy has been eliminated from the diet.
Whilst these suggestions may sound extreme, evidence from many horses indicates their importance in achieving the desired result. Time and again, horses do not fully respond to magnesium supplements until calcium has been minimized. As little as 20g per day of a calcium supplement can be enough to cause significant regression in a horse that was doing well on magnesium only.
Having reduced calcium as much as possible, it is then easier to get the most out of whichever magnesium supplement is used. Magnesium chloride has a high bioavailability because it is already in ionic form; it is not dependent on efficient gastric function for breakdown in the stomach as is magnesium oxide. There is no way to pre-determine how much magnesium your horse will need as every horse has different needs. Of my own 3 horses, the one who weighs the least is the one who needs the most magnesium.
I would not recommend using alkaline magnesium oxide for your horse as excess gut alkalinity may already be a problem if your water is high in alkaline calcium. This is one of the factors that can be involved in enterolith formation. Mag oxide could be useful for other situations where excess acidity is an issue.
Chromium is important but can be toxic in excess, so I’d suggest finding a plain chromium supplement that you can feed independent of anything else. Salt also is important as Dr Deb has already explained.
Best wishes, Pauline
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ruth
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14th, 2013 08:06 am |
Hello Pauline,
Do you have any more thoughts on the feeding of bran, a traditional feed in the UK that has fallen greatly out of favour in the last few decades as it is reputed to block the absorption of calcium. The bran available now in the UK is usually wheat bran. Many thanks, Ruth
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geedubya
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14th, 2013 04:11 pm |
Thank you Pauline and Dr. Deb. We are awaiting our MaCl order, and will start that slowly as suggested. We were never considering simply inreasing the current product containing MaO, as wife is aware of Chromium worries. Forage fed is limited to teff grass; we sent some in for sugar/carb testing just yesterday. We've stopped letting him out on even the poor pasture Dr. Deb described. I'll get the water fully tested. Only rain water might be a project, but could be done (if we get rain) - I have a big tank I pump "seaonal creek" water into, that is later used to sprinkle arena. I could move one of those closer to barn, and fill trough from that if that water tests better. Currently the vet has him on L Thyroid or L Thyroxin, have to look at canister to remember which one. Supplement also includes LMF NCS stage one, 8 ounces/day, which does contain some soy product, and some calcium. We'll chack into other options there. I will write back once some time has elapsed and we've done the MaCl.
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