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Topic Review
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Annie F
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Joined: Wed May 2nd, 2007
Location: Princeton, New Jersey USA
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Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 10:25 pm
Leah,

Thanks so much for your informative review of the book--it was kind of you to take the time to provide so much detail.  I will be traveling on business this week, and plan to take several of the knowledge base articles with me to read and reflect on; I wondered where this book fit in with the information and perspectives in those articles, and with the very informative discussions on this forum about the muscles used to lift the back.  For me, it is so helpful to have this concrete information, including identifying specific muscles and their action. I realize that when I ride, this technical information cannot substitute for "feel," but for me, it is easier to develop that feel if I at least know what I am searching for! 

Thanks for the time you and others have taken to advance this discussion!

Annie

 

danee
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Posted: Sat Oct 13th, 2007 09:51 pm

Leah
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Posted: Sat Oct 13th, 2007 11:02 pm
danee-it doesn't address rider crookedness in the same way as say...Centered Riding does...but there is a section on transferring straightening from the ground work to ridden work and placement-like our sternum facing where the horse's chest should faced is addressed.

I have found this book invaluable. I have been doing the groundwork on 2 and using the riding principles on the two that I ride and the results come very quickly-in terms of seeing progress.

I have tried the exercises on Julian and he IS 'tracking' better-that plus the information that Dr Deb has provided on the muscles is making our sessions productice.

Sadly though he has a terrible stiffness still in his body and especially in his hind end that I still can't get a grasp on.

Hopefully Dr Deb will return soon and can keep our education progressing! :-)

Leah
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Posted: Sat Oct 27th, 2007 11:47 pm

IrishPony
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Posted: Tue Oct 30th, 2007 04:14 pm
Yes, a few of us feel rather abandoned on this topic. It includes Low Back in Young Horses as well as Whip-Like Hoof Movement.  Tight backs need attending to.

Dr. Deb?    Kathy et al

Sam
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Posted: Thu Nov 1st, 2007 07:34 am
Hi Folks,

Have been watching this thread with much interest!  Thanks to Dr Deb I have discovered this year what my horses 'problems' were, ME and BAD POSTURE.  Had to start by sorting myself out first...am now working on horses bad posture,  he has previously been high headed, braced, tight in the back with some mucsle wastage of the back.  All this shows hugely in his feet, and again thanks to Dr Deb I find I can trim those hooves till I am blue in the face, doesn't change a thing till I address the posture.

I don't know it this will help but I can share what my horse has taught me, and the answers I have found through this good work. 

My horse had no idea how to let those tight muscles on the top line go, so to start I have taught him to first lower the head below the withers and then  twirl the head, standing still then progressing to walk. Then next we twirled the loins, get the inside hind to step under the body shadow.  I have also done a bit of 'body work' I have learnt to help him become aware of his body.  Deb's mannering has gone a huge way too.  This is pretty much all I have done and this horses posture has previously been so bad he has lost the trot, we only ever walked and cantered, I thought he was some flash gaited horse....nope, I believe bad posture!!!  Anyway my horse is starting to show trot steps when free in his paddock, up to three strides in a row!  And I saw him do two strides of canter with the base of his neck raised and his loins coiled, this is a first!  All so exciting.

I do however have a weeny question.  I have sent my horse out onto the circle, put a little knot in my rope up near the horse so I am always sending the knot to the horse and pushing on his girth area with my 'bubble',  if the horse is not quite stepping under the tummy far enough, does this show in a 'not quite' a head twirl.  There seems to be a little sideways tilt to the head and no crinkles in the neck, I haven't quite got the release with me further out on the rope.  Hope that makes sense. 

TTFN

Sam

Adrienne from another computer
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Posted: Thu Nov 1st, 2007 06:40 pm
Hi Sam,

 I'm not quite sure I understand your question (foggy head day...) but I think your asking if your not getting a full twirling of the loins if that means your head twirl isn't there?  Can you make sense of that? :-)

 The head twirl is about release as you've learned and worked out. The horse must release over the topline to twirl the hindquarters. Best way to release the top line is the head twirl.

 So what I'm trying to say is if your not getting the response you want you need to get the release you need.

 Your doing very well and you should trust what your seeing!  Your not describing a head twirl.

 Remember helping horses move straight is hard work for them and they need all your support and help. If your not succeeding move back a step of two in your training and get that better or change what your doing. Maybe you need to make your circle smaller or larger or maybe you need to walk right up with the horse around the circle to be able to actually touch him and help him out, etc., etc. Experiment with your position on the ground and your energy, sometimes we aren't in quite the right position relative to the horse.

 Also do you see in your minds eye what you want him to do? Not just for a moment but holding it there, changing as he does moment to moment?

Are you sending him that "straight, soft, released feeling"? Feel the straightness, the softness and the release in your self and send him that support.

 Enjoy your day!
          Adrienne
Pam
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Posted: Thu Nov 1st, 2007 07:21 pm
Adrienne,

Is "Doubling" the horse the same as head twirling? 

Thanks,

Pam

Adrienne from another computer
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Posted: Thu Nov 1st, 2007 08:02 pm
Hi Pam,

 I'm not familiar with the term "doubling"?  Is it bringing the nose around to the horse's side or the rider's knee??

 If it's an exercise that is for control, "flexibility" or "suppling" than I'd say no. From what I've seen of these exercises.

Head twirling isn't about getting bend in the neck, it's about asking the horse to relax is tight topline muscles and "let go" so he can rotate his skull on the end of his neck. The neck isn't where the bend starts and may not even bend at all depending on the degree of twirl your asking, the height of the neck and how much he releases. Head twirling is small, and is a release and not an exercise.

 All good movement starts with this release. Your horse can't collect without releasing first. He can't coil his loins if he doesn't let go of his topline muscles first.

 When we want our horse to carry us, move straight and in collection with free forward movement and sail through different movements like jumping, shoulder-in, canter depart, halting, transitions, roll backs, haunches-in, passage, etc. etc.all the while getting straighter, sounder and better for it,  we first need release of the topline that makes way for collection by coiling the loins, then we get it all working together and get collection. Collection is maintained by keeping the release, softness and balance. When we lose one we lose it all and get brace.

 So head twirling isn't just something we teach our horse or something we use as part of our exercise program it's how we help our horses release so they can collect and carry us and do exercises or movements. Does that make sense?

  Have a great day!
             Adrienne
Pam
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Posted: Thu Nov 1st, 2007 11:28 pm
Adrienne,

You are correct about Doubling.  Thanks for your explanation.  I think I'm little closer to understanding head twirling.  Maybe I'm able to do this without realizing I am. 

You mention rollbacks in your reply - I just want to mention how much I enjoy that maneuver and how loose and attentive it makes my horse!

Thank You,

Pam 

 

danee
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Posted: Thu Nov 1st, 2007 11:57 pm

IrishPony
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Posted: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 02:05 am
For those members who do head twirling on their horse(s), I have a question: Just before putting hay in his rack tonight, I stood in front of my gelding, placed my hands on either side of his face and slowly tried to twirl his head along the long axis of his head.  After a few attempts, I got an ever-so-slight "give" in both directions, quit, gave him his hay stood there and watched him. He took a few bites and came back to face me, as if inviting me to "do that thing you just did".   This is a horse who never walks away from a full hay rack.

Does head twirling feel good to a horse? Is manual twirling on the ground a good way to introduce it to a horse for the first time, as opposed to getting the movement with the aid of bit and reins? Lastly, am I doing it right (along the long axis) rather than in a different plane?

It was astounding that he seemed to come back for more, knowing his proclivity to eat above all else.  Kathy

Bill not abble to register
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Posted: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 04:05 am
Doubling is the same as one rein stop. Its a term Buck uses I believe. Bill I 
Sam
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Posted: Tue Nov 6th, 2007 05:52 am
Thanks Adreinne, I was asking a bit of a 'chicken and the egg' question as to which comes first, the head twirl or the loin twirl. And if one is not perfect can one help the other.  As I now understand it if the head is not twirled and releasing the muscles well how can the horse twirl the loins with ease?!  And I have gone back a few steps as this horse needs me closer to him so he understands and I have to go really slow one step at a time.  Thanks for the helpful hints.

I hadn't heard the term 'doubling' before, Buck B is coming to NZ next year so I will keep an ear out for his use of this term.

Kind Regards

Sam

Leah
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Posted: Fri Nov 16th, 2007 01:54 pm
Goodness sometimes I can be thick as a brick.

Last night I read every post on this forum, then I re-read woody and True Collection...slowly...focusing on each sentence and point.

I took several breaks during the reading to really focus on the material.

 

Then the piano dropped...the thud was loud. The information I needed is already here...in your writings, inr your response on this thread AND in your responses on other threads.

Thank you Dr Deb for an educational thread, knowing when to assist me and more importantly, knowing when to stay back and make me dig a little...or in this case dig a lot.

I really really enjoyed the articles. Though I have read them before it was like reading them for the first time and the room was bright from all of the lightbulb moments.

 




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