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Jamsession
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Posted: Tue Feb 7th, 2012 12:31 am
I do plan on going to Buck's clinic in Maine in September.

In the meantime, while I am setting up to go out and spend time with Josh or Harry, what would be the best thing to do with my mare? I apologize if it sounds like I'm being totally thickheaded, I don't intend to, but I have seen enough nurse-y horsewomen in the barns I've worked at and I don't ever want to be that. I guess you could say I've seen the light and now there's no way I can go back to not seeing it.
Indy
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Posted: Tue Feb 7th, 2012 01:00 am
Jamession,
Check out 7 Springs Farm in NJ. They host several of the recommended clinicians. It is a beautiful farm and the people are always super nice and helpful. I didn't go to many clinics last year as I was focusing on driving more then riding, but this year I plan to go to a few clinics at 7 Springs. You can choose to ride in the clinics or audit. I pack food and sleep in my trailer in order to save money. I probably wouldn't have gone the first time had it not been for the encouragement I received on this forum. If you have any questions, let me know.
Clara
DrDeb
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Posted: Tue Feb 7th, 2012 01:05 am
Good idea, Indy, and I hope Jam follows up on that and Buck's clinic in Maine.

Meanwhile, Jam, I've already answered your last question: just leave the horse alone. It never hurt any horse to not get ridden. And if this accellerates your urgency to go find Harry or Josh -- in addition to the others -- well then, all to the good. -- Dr. Deb

Blueskidoo
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Posted: Tue Feb 7th, 2012 03:21 am
Harry is in TN part of May &June, at Mendin Fences.  http://www.mendinfencesfarm.com  The facility is wonderful and the owners are a treat.

Jamsession
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Posted: Tue Feb 7th, 2012 12:07 pm
Thank you, guys, I will look into both of those suggestions.

Katherine
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Posted: Tue Feb 7th, 2012 08:40 pm
Nuno Oliveira was mentioned way back in this thread, but it may be worth returning to the original "draping reins" theme. I just wanted to mention a book that has lots of excellent photos of Nuno riding schooling sessions, lunging, and working in hand, and you will see draping reins to your heart's content. The base of the neck is clearly raised in his horses and there is no ugly backwards traction on the bit.

"The Truth in the Teaching of Nuno Oliveira" by Eleanor Russell is the book. Published in 2001. No idea if it's still available.

I must admit I haven't read a single word of the book - in the 10 years I've had it all I've done is look at the photos... I think the text is a series of quotes from Nuno, translated by the author, so whether the true meaning came through translation I can't make comment on.

DrDeb
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Posted: Tue Feb 7th, 2012 11:41 pm
Katherine, this is a good suggestion. People can also look for three other books featuring Nuno Oliveira:

"Classical Principles of the Art of Training Horses" and Jean Sauvat's "Equestrian Sketches" volume that features Nuno (there was another Sauvat volume that features a Nuno-imitator, a huge ego who will go nameless here -- please don't bother with that one).

Both of these books are quite difficult to find, as having been printed in very short run originally. The "Equestrian sketches" is the better of the two in terms of not only having wonderfully evocative images -- drawings that are actually better than photographs, and that's a real rarity -- but also parallel text in French written by Oliveira himself and then also well translated into English.

The other Oliveira book somebody will have to remind me of the title of -- I use it much less than these two -- yet it is the one with the red and green cover, which is quite commonly available. I use it much less because the translation from French sucks. If anyone knows where to get this book in the original French, I would LOVE to have a copy. The "Classical Principles" volume is a better English translation, but I'd still like to have that one also in the original French. The reason for this is that I believe that most of the women who helped Nuno with translations were not, themselves, of anything like the caliber of Nuno himself. They were admirers and students; but they did not really understand what the master meant, oftentimes; and sometimes, their French wasn't all that hot, either.

The same may be said for the volume you mention -- I too use the pictures in Nuno's books before anything else, because the words are somewhat to considerably unreliable. This is an ongoing problem with all equestrian works written by master-horsemen in any language; quite a bit tends to get lost in the translation, but pictures, like music, are universally understandable, at least to those with enough experience to realize what they are looking at. -- Dr. Deb

 

CarolineTwoPonies
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Posted: Wed Feb 8th, 2012 05:30 am
Amazon France has a good selection. They do deliver for the most part though there are exceptions amongst the used book sales people. There are a couple of books with various degrees of green and red covers. Are you thinking of the 30 years of correspondence between Michel Henriquet and Nuno Oliveira? Hope this helps.

http://www.amazon.fr/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85Z%C3%95%C3%91&url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=nuno+oliveira+&x=11&y=20

DrDeb
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Posted: Wed Feb 8th, 2012 04:09 pm
No, it was "Reflections on Equestrian Art." That's the most commonly available Nuno title, and I see from having just looked it up that it's available at Amazon.com. Thanks for the reminder that there's a French Amazon.com too -- when I get some time, I'll have to cruise over there! -- Dr. Deb
Jeannie
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Posted: Sun Feb 12th, 2012 08:48 pm
Jam, while you are waiting to see Buck and/or Harry, Tom Moates is a student of Harry's, and has written a few books from the perspective of a novice with an earnest interest in getting better with horses. " A Horse's Thought" and " Between the Reins" are available through Eclectic Horseman, and along the same lines of the above posts, in addition to the text, he has photos of both himself and Harry working and being around horses. You will learn a lot by looking at those photos, and noticing the differences between the two horseman in their body language and general confidence level around horses, the very things that horses notice.

  Best wishes with your journey, Jeannie

DrDeb
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Posted: Mon Feb 13th, 2012 03:01 am
Jeannie, your post brings up in a kind of oblique way something very important: that the 'earnest horse owner' who will wind up succeeding is none other than the person who is able to observe in detail, as horses themselves observe; but also, as the 'earnest student' observes who wishes to become a professional scientist. Our elderly teacher talked very often about 'observe....remember....compare'.

He did not himself know, I believe, that this same mantra of 'observe, remember, and compare' was first taught by Galileo.

No one can learn to 'read' the body language of horses who does not devote himself or herself to first observing many, many horses doing many, many things. You have to be able to notice it before you can interpret it; then finally you also learn to interpret it. -- Dr. Deb

Solar
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Posted: Mon Feb 13th, 2012 03:37 am
I believe it was Aldo Leopold who told of an ordinary elderly lady who had studied for many years, house sparrows that came to her feeder. She observed the details of their lives so well that scientists would consult her on sparrow behavior etc. He referred to her as being a "citizen scientist". I think of this lady often when I am studying my horses.
Kuhaylan Heify
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Posted: Sun Oct 6th, 2019 02:09 pm
Dear All: I was wondering about the literal draping reins stuff. There's a picture on,one of the u.s.e.t's web sites of a German immigrant doing an Uber Streichen ( loop the reins and stroke the horses neck) I was wondering if so doing is an adaption of the French Descente de Maine- Descente de Jambes. I suspect not so because, while they do occasionally speak of Uber Streichen they don't- as far as I know say Aufhellen Menschlicjes Bein( freeing or lightening of the riders leg)
Mike had quite a lengthy discussion a while back about certain internationally famous show riders forcing the lift out of the horse back and bopping their horses in the mouth with the bit with every stride.
Also George Morris talked two years ago in his Oregon clinic about the differing national,' schools,' of thought about how to use the reins. He said that the Germans don't really get specific about how the rider should use their hands, while the French do.
best
Bruce Peek
DrDeb
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Posted: Wed Oct 16th, 2019 03:21 am
Bruce, 'descente de main' means 'release the reins' or better, 'release your hold on the reins'. Ditto, 'descente de jambes' means 'take your leg off' or 'stop squeezing the horse with your legs'. This is made abundantly clear in Beaudant's report of his correspondence with Faverot de Kerbrecht concerning this phrase as used by Baucher.

The older, and far better, name for what you are calling 'oberstreichen' is "showing the horse the way to the ground." It has nothing in and of itself to do with descente de main, because one does not release the reins in order to induce the horse to perform this stretch-in-motion. Rather, one combs the reins, which is to say, plays the reins as one would play a big bass fish who is hooked but wants to run the line; one puts one's thumb against the reel to produce a certain amount of friction, which might vary from less to greater depending upon the feel that the fish gives.

This is not a mystery to the person who will practice rather than merely intellectualize and talk ABOUT it rather than getting out there and trying it. And remember, it is absolutely crucial that while playing or combing the reins, that you keep your hands UP -- the hands must be at the level of the rider's natural waist, or higher, and the rider's elbows must be bent. Not only is it impossible to play the reins without a bend in the elbow -- once you try doing this, Bruce, you will find that the horse's reaction is quite strong and may surprise you. That head will go RIGHT down -- but NEVER if you lower your hands, i.e. try to pull it down.

In showing the horse the way to the ground, you are SHOWING him, not forcing him or putting him or shaping him. He must shape himself, and he will, with pleasure, if you will just permit him. Remember: 'descente de main' means "stop pulling", "stop putting backwards pressure on the reins". Playing the reins involves this but you don't drop the reins abruptly; instead retain a certain amount of feel, which is supportive but in no way restrictive -- something the horse can enjoy, respond to, and work with. -- Dr. Deb



Kuhaylan Heify
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Posted: Mon Oct 21st, 2019 01:53 pm
Dear Dr. Deb: many thanks for the clarity.. I'll give it a whirl this morning.
best
Bruce Peek



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