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Philine
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Joined: Tue Jul 31st, 2007
Location: Edmonton, Alberta Canada
Posts: 23
Status:  Offline
Posted: Mon Mar 29th, 2010 12:57 am
Kate wrote: Thank you Kathy.

It was indeed very thought - provoking.  I am finding so much about horsemanship and horses is as much (if not more) mental attitude and flexibility. Simply changing one's views and thought processes seems to have a big impact on physical results! 

Kate



This is a timely thread for me, with more than one epiphany. When I got my horse, I expanded her barn name of Ruby to Ruby Tuesday, since the Rolling Stones were a part of my teen years and I thought it was a cute name.  I have also made excuses for her behaviour, like her not standing still in the grooming stall because it probably reminded her of the starting gates at the race track.  While I know cognitively it is not useful to attach emotions to my work with her, it has been difficult for me to put that into practice.

Today I went out to the barn and my horse's name was Red.  I was very clear (and unemotional) about expecting her to stand where I planted her until I told her it was OK to move.  I had to reset her a few times but did not get upset or frustrated about that.  When we did other groundwork in the arena I focused on being clear about what I wanted her to do and on the timing of my releases when she did it.  We went into the 'scary' end and worked a lot there.  I concentrated on having her pay attention to me and waiting on me instead of her anticipating what we were going to do.  I was directing the whole show this time.

What happened was that she was calmer than usual and there was a lot of licking her lips.  She didn't do much of the leaping around and almost rearing she sometimes does when my frustration with her 'not listening' jumps my energy up.  I didn't get upset when she didn't do what I intended.  I revised my approach or broke it into smaller steps.  The absence of emotion helped me to learn how to be a better teacher for what my horse needed.

I have also finally accepted that, just like Jineen's horse, my horse is nervous and a worrier and will probably always be that way.  Unlike my first horse, an old schoolmaster, or my second horse, a former lesson horse, she cannot fill in for me.  It is therefore my job to convince her that I am a capable leader so she doesn't have to lead and it is my job to be aware enough of her to catch the worry early so I can diffuse it.

The whole experience today was really interesting.  The tweaking of my perception had a huge impact on both me and my horse and I felt more successful about what we did than I had felt in awhile.  I found the link on Dr Deb's freedom discussion very helpful, Kathy.  I felt more free today and I think my horse did too.  And Dr Deb, thank-you.  I did not realize how much stickiness was there.  Thank you also to all the other people contributing to the forum discussions.  My horse experience is certainly not as extensive as I would like it to be and I often find comments in different threads quite useful.

Philine 

Tammy 2
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Joined: Sun Feb 3rd, 2008
Location: Redland, Alberta Canada
Posts: 129
Status:  Offline
Posted: Mon Mar 29th, 2010 03:16 pm
This thread has been timely for me as well.  With this winter of us having so much drifted snow, I did not work with my horse all that much.  Now that spring has sprung, I have started to consistently spend time with him.  There have been times he has been very worried in my arena.  I only have an outdoor so there can be alot going on around us that he cannot see but can hear.  Kids riding motorbikes, neighbors using power tools and generally lots of activity.  So, I had to catch myself getting caught in a mindset of, you should be used to these things.  Why has all the wonderful ground we covered last year of getting you feeling so much better seems to have gone away?  Why are your thoughts flying away from me so quickly?  Why are you still showing signs of being herd bound and wanting to be with your friend up by the house? If I had an indoor arena this would be so much easier, etc. etc. 

Then, I took a step back.  It does not matter where we were.  It does not matter what we are doing tomorrow.  It does not even matter what we will be doing in 5 minutes because that is having an agenda.  What matters is how he is feeling right now and what I can do to help him to be with me and feel better.  So today, my horse has the name of Blacky.  I am going to be a calm teacher, I am going to think and I am going to get to his thoughts of being worried early.  I am going to work from where he is, not from where he was.  We are going to take small steps and do things that he can do and be successful at to build his confidence.  The horse that I will be teaching today will help me to work at getting my horsemanship better.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and experiences.  This forum is what helps me to step back and think.  It is so easy to get pulled back into the mindset "that he should just know this stuff".



Tammy

 


kindredspirit
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Joined: Sun Apr 1st, 2007
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Posted: Mon Mar 29th, 2010 10:18 pm
Tammy 2 wrote:   I am going to be a calm teacher, I am going to think and I am going to get to his thoughts of being worried early.  I am going to work from where he is, not from where he was.  We are going to take small steps and do things that he can do and be successful at to build his confidence.  The horse that I will be teaching today will help me to work at getting my horsemanship better.


Tammy

 



Hi Tammy, it is good to hear your perspective! I left in the quoted area those so very important items you have mentioned. 

 I have a horse who lacks confidence, and for a long time I could not help him there, because I lacked confidence in MY ability to help this particular horse.  But MY help was what he needed.  A wise person said to me, if you just spent 10 mins 5 times a day working on getting this horse to feel differently you can get a lot done.  Well winter had been a long one here, but I did just that, took the good days and built on them, whatever it was I could work on and help my horse feel better.  Little by little chipping away at all those little spots that I knew needed clearing up.  And as you say, Spring has sprung and I am really excited about the foundation I have to build on with this horse because I spent so much time working on what he needed on any given day.    As Ray Hunt says: "They know when you know and they know when you don't know." And I think this one horse of mine is breathing a sigh of relief and thinking, she finally knows! LOL.  And I know more now than ever that I never ever ever stop learning.  Horses are the very best teachers, bar none!  So much to know!

Kathy

Tutora
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Joined: Fri Sep 5th, 2008
Location: Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 127
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Posted: Tue Mar 30th, 2010 01:02 am
Tammy 2 wrote:   What matters is how he is feeling right now and what I can do to help him to be with me and feel better.  



Tammy
 


I thought that was well said, also, Tammy.
Tammy 2
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Joined: Sun Feb 3rd, 2008
Location: Redland, Alberta Canada
Posts: 129
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Posted: Tue Mar 30th, 2010 02:05 pm
Kindred and Tutora, thanks for your comments.  Kindred, you have reminded me of something Buck told at a clinic I audited. 

You cannot expect your horse to advance if you don't get out there and spend the time with him.  He said if someone were to pull up to your yard at the same time everyday with $100 for you, where would you be?  Well, you would be out there at the same time everyday to collect your $100.  Spending the time with your horse is, from Dr. Deb's the Birdie Book, money in the bank.

I think through the winter, our account went into overdraft.  So, I need to spend the time now to "earn" back the lost time.  This coming winter, I will be out there spending the time with him. 

Tammy


 


Jacquie
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Joined: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007
Location: Nr. Frome, Somerset, United Kingdom
Posts: 158
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Posted: Wed Mar 31st, 2010 07:41 am
DD by the way, I am curious that in your comparison between an equine dentists training and a farriers training, you say that farriers (and good equine dentists) have a minimum of 250 hours of apprenticeship.

This seems rather a short training time to me, for a farrier and must only equate to one year of part time work at the most.

My daughter was considering becoming a farrier for while last year, (she has since changed her mind) and in UK farriers must be apprenticed for 4 years and 2 months with a farrier registered with the Farriers Registration Council, which is the only recognised regulating body in UK for all farriers. The training farrier must hold a higher level of qualification to be allowed to take on an apprentice and it is illegal to shoe a horse for financial gain in UK unless you are registered with this body and hold a level 1, 2 or 4 qualification. The 4+ year apprenticeship comes after a one year course has been successfully completed to teach the students their blacksmithing skills, which they must pass with a sufficiently high level of pass or no training level qualified farrier would consider taking them on.

It seems as if UK farriers are trained for a lot longer than the farriers in USA. If so, I was not aware that there was such an enormous discrepancy in farriery training and I am quite shocked that the USA farriers have such a short training time.


rifruffian
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Joined: Mon Mar 17th, 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 69
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Posted: Wed Mar 31st, 2010 12:25 pm
Hi Jacquie just a question from me arising from the detail of your last post. You write that in UK we cannot shoe a horse for financial gain unles we hold the registered farrier qualification; agreed. But I infer from your post that it would be ok for the unqualified person to shoe the horse provided it was not for financial gain; I don't think so; are you sure ?

Jacquie
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Joined: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007
Location: Nr. Frome, Somerset, United Kingdom
Posts: 158
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Posted: Wed Mar 31st, 2010 01:37 pm
Hi Riffruffian

There is a tiered approach to farriery qualifications and the lowest tier allows shoeing with no financial gain, but no more.

 

It is allowed to trim a horses foot without qualification, but horses are protected by the animal welfare act, so poor foot trimming resulting in lameness could be a prosecutable offence.

 

In UK it is not allowed for a farrier qualified anywhere else in the world to work on horses here for financial gain, though I am not sure if they can work on their own horses.

 

Here are some extracts from the Worshipful Company of Farriers. You can go on their website and check what level your farriers qualifications are, or find a new farrier if you move areas.

 

A Livery Company of the City of London, known as the Worshipful Company of Farriers (WCF), was established in 1356 during the reign of Edward III by the Court of Aldermen of the City. During the 1970s there was a desire from within the craft through the membership of the WCF and the National Association of Farriers Blacksmiths and Agricultural Engineers (NAFBAE) to introduce professional regulation of the craft in the interests of horse welfare. The Farriers (Registration) Act was made in 1975 and came fully into force in England and Wales in 1980 and in Scotland (except in the Scottish Islands and Highland Region) in 1981. The Act was amended in 1977, in 2002 to reflect the requirements of EC Directive 99/42 and again in 2008 to reflect the requirements of EC Directive 2005/36.  EC Directive 2005/36 concerns the freedom of movement of professionals in the European Economic Area (EEA).  From 30 March 2007 the Highland Region and Islands of Scotland were also covered by Section 16 of the Act and hence the Act is now fully in force in all areas of Great Britain.  

 

The Farriers (Registration) Act 1975, as amended, is an Act to:

 

“Prevent and avoid suffering by and cruelty to horses arising from the shoeing of horses by unskilled persons; to promote the proper shoeing of horses; to promote the training of farriers and shoeing smiths; to provide for the establishment of a Farriers Registration Council to register persons engaged in farriery and the shoeing of horses; to prohibit the shoeing of horses by unqualified persons; and for the purposes connected therewith.”

 

Under the Act the WCF was given the general responsibility for securing adequate standards of competence and conduct among farriers together with the advancement of the art and science of farriery and education in connection with it.

 

The Farriers Registration Council was set up to maintain a Register of Farriers and to determine who is qualified to register therein, to make rules with respect to the form and keeping of the register, to approve and supervise courses, qualifications and institutions providing training in farriery, to undertake the preliminary investigation of disciplinary cases through an Investigating Committee and to determine cases through a Disciplinary Committee.

 

Farriery is defined in the Act as:

 

”any work in connection with the preparation or treatment of the foot of the horse for the immediate reception of a shoe thereon, the fitting by nailing or otherwise of a shoe to the foot or the finishing off of such work to the foot.”

 

This means that “barefoot trimming” i.e. trimming that is not in preparation for the application of a shoe does not fall within the definition.

Areas in which the Act applies:

England, Wales and Scotland

Those who may carry out farriery: 

·        Registered Farriers

·        Approved Farriery Apprentices or persons attending a Council approved course

·        Veterinary Surgeons

·        Trainee Veterinary Surgeons working under the supervision of a Veterinary Surgeon or Registered Farrier

·        Persons rendering first-aid in case of emergency to a horse.

It is a criminal offence, with a fine of up to £1000 and costs, for anyone other than those listed above to carry out farriery.  It is also an offence for anyone other than a Registered Farrier to describe themselves as a farrier.

 

 

Interesting isn't it! I hope this helps clarify my earlier post.

Tammy 2
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Joined: Sun Feb 3rd, 2008
Location: Redland, Alberta Canada
Posts: 129
Status:  Offline
Posted: Wed Mar 31st, 2010 02:07 pm
Hi Jacquie,

Here in Alberta, Canada the farrier program at the equine college is a 4 year program.  I am sure it is similar in the US.  In veterinary school, dentistry is very lightly touched on however there are extra courses that vets can take to become more skilled at that particularly.  The vet I use for my horses teeth is a vet and also an equine dentist.  It is his specialty and he mostly focuses on just dental care.

Tammy

 

 

Jacquie
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Joined: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007
Location: Nr. Frome, Somerset, United Kingdom
Posts: 158
Status:  Offline
Posted: Wed Mar 31st, 2010 03:09 pm
Hi Tammy

I think Canada often seems to be more similar to UK - in various ways. Sounds like your choice is a really good one then, with your equine dentist being a vet as well. Our vets do various specialist extra courses too and like you, I chose to use a vet for my equines dentistry. I have never had a cause to question that choice for any reason either.

I had one 11hh pony who lived to 40 and a 16hh mare who lived to 30 - (she is in my profile picture on this site) both equines enjoyed good digestive health for their whole time with me (12 years for the pony and 25 years for the mare) and stayed sound and happy with the bit in their mouths - the mare was ridden until days before the end of her life and the pony was ridden ocasionally very gently by very young children. The mare had a slightly 'parrot' mouth too - an overshot jaw, which needed careful dentistry throughout her life. The 40 year old 11hh pony actually had no incisor teeth left to speak of from about his mid 30s - they had grown right out and the few that were left were tiny useless little stubs. He had to be fed mushy food and access to nice long grass and he managed very well for about 5 years like that with no proper incisors at the top or bottom. He retained his condition despite this, though at the end it was his chronic liver failure which made us have to take the decision to have him put down.

saffire_100
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Joined: Thu Jan 24th, 2008
Location: High River, Alberta Canada
Posts: 20
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Posted: Wed Mar 31st, 2010 06:25 pm
a very well known agricultural College in Alberta is a 1 year farrier course.  This is longer than many other farrier courses I have seen in Canada and the USA.   A GPA of 2.0 is required to graduate.  

Certfications don't necesarily mean anything as I have seen the poor work of many farriers that had graduated from accredited programs.  The proof is in the soundness of the horses they take care of.  

My one horse ended up with a year off to rest and recover from continuous shoeing with too long of a breakover.  Even after my vet did x-rays and sent a written report of what the horse required, the farrier refused to change.   He verbally said he would, then continued to do the exact same work as prior.  

I am very fortunate that my vet has extensive training in equine dentristy.   I have also paid a lot of money to vet prior to this one that claimed to be trained but really  had a poor understanding of proper equine dentristry.  The horse owner really needs to evaluate every person that participates in the care of their horses.  It is owner beware.

Jacquie
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Joined: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007
Location: Nr. Frome, Somerset, United Kingdom
Posts: 158
Status:  Offline
Posted: Wed Mar 31st, 2010 06:29 pm
Yes I agree -  it is owner beware!

It seems that there is no such thing as a level playing field globally in these skills of farriery and dentistry and it is impossible to generalise.

Tammy 2
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Joined: Sun Feb 3rd, 2008
Location: Redland, Alberta Canada
Posts: 129
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Posted: Wed Mar 31st, 2010 11:18 pm
Sarah, you are probably right.  (I am sure we are talking about the same college).  However, I have read that they have expanded the course to 2 years recently.  Also, I was assuming that said person takes all the courses.  After the 2 years course, there is an Advanced Farrier Science course + one other that I cannot recall the name however it is to do with the bio-mechanics of the legs and hoof.  I cannot imagine how that would not be covered in the basic 2 year course but it is an "extra".  I believe Dr. Deb has visited this college in the past.

I have used a fellow fresh out of this college years ago that caused my horse to be sore for 2 weeks, even though I told him to not take too much off.  I also was recommended someone whom had apprenticed with a very well known farrier with a "good name".  The well known person was not taking on any new clients.  This person took way too much off to the point where I could not bring my horse into the barn as he was so sore, the hard cement hurt him badly.  For that one he was sore for almost a month.  The guy did not even return my calls.

It can be very difficult to find people that are good at what they do and take pride in it.  Luckily, I have found that guy.  He did make my boy sore once to which I had a discussion with him and it has not happened since.  I don't know if my horse's feet are misleading but my favorite farrier (cannot come to me as I am too far away) said to me when my horse was only 2.  "Do not ever let anyone take too much off this horse".  He obviously knew what he was talking about.  But with my past experiences, sometimes they just do not seem to listen to me.

I don't think anything can beat years of experience.

Tammy


Jacquie
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Joined: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007
Location: Nr. Frome, Somerset, United Kingdom
Posts: 158
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Posted: Thu Apr 1st, 2010 07:26 am
I think we are really lucky in the UK as our farriers are generally very good. My own farrier, Ben is a really lovely chap, who is competent enough to do remedial shoeing and is a nice person too. He is always on time, always good tempered and my horses do not loose shoes early and he has never made any one of my horses sore in the slightest. Thank goodness that when I move - which is happening soon - he will still be able to come to shoe my horses at my new house. I am definitely very lucky to have him to care for my horses feet. It does cost me £65 per set mind you - but even though there are farriers who are a little cheaper, I will stick with him because I know I can trust him to do a good job. Most farriers hot shoe here too and shape the shoe to fit the hoof somewhat, with an eye also on correction of the hoof shape and balance and provide adequate shoe support at the heels. I have my horses shod every 6 weeks by Ben and this seems to be an optimum time for them - before the feet have grown too long which might make them split.
DrDeb
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Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
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Posted: Sat Apr 3rd, 2010 03:09 am
Jacquie and everybody -- sorry it's been a few days before I could reply -- I have been very busy getting ready for my upcoming trip to Australia. Ten thousand things always come up right before you have to fly, I don't know why that is!!

As to farrier vs. dentist training: Jacquie, they have no relationship to each other. Dentists and farriers are not trained at the same schools or academies. The "250 hours" that I quoted refers only to the non-veterinarian equine dentists who graduate from the one school where I used to work. This would be the minimum, for the lowest certification, and counts only time actually spent working in horses' mouths, i.e. the supervising journeyman does not "count" travel time, observation time, and so forth, when reporting hours for the apprentice.

The point is, and the whole reason I mentioned this, was to indicate that non-veterinarian dentists receive far more classroom instruction and far more practical hands-on learning and experience than offered by any veterinary college on earth. Some veterinarians -- I regard these persons as basically arrogant -- will try to say that they don't need to attend classes in cranial anatomy and oral biomechanics just because they hold a veterinary degree. This is as ridiculous as your general practitioner claiming that he is qualified to open a dental practice without having gone to dental school and gained a D.D.S. in addition to his M.D. Equine dentistry is a specialty, and all good veterinarians acknowledge this. I do not believe that a veterinarian who goes to a two or three-day certificate-granting course and purchases some additional instruments is qualified on that basis to perform equine dentistry. This is why we have the current strange and tragic dichotomy, that many "lay" equine dentists are vastly the superior practitioners, while only licensed veterinarians should be administering the drugs necessary to do precision work.

As to farriers: Yes, the British system of certification and training is widely acknowledged as the best in the world. Unfortunately that by itself also does not guarantee that the farrier is doing what I would want him to be doing. There are several problems with the system of farrier training in all countries:

1. There has been an over-emphasis on skill at the forge and in applying shoes vs. the farrier's ability to conceive and execute the primary necessity, which is an orthopedically meaningful and beneficial trim. It does not matter how beautiful the shoe is if it is applied to a foot that, although it has been leveled and dressed, is still  out of orthopedic balance.

2. All certification and training systems have "entropy" -- they're heavy, they're hard to move: meaning, old wrong ideas take a long time to eliminate. But my horse does not need, and I do not want, old wrong ideas applied to his feet in the here and now.

3. All new graduates are dangerous for the first decade after they receive their degree or certificate. I say this myself as a graduate. We are dangerous because we have received a degree or certificate, which tends to convince the recipient that he or she knows what he is doing. Wisdom, which comes only afterwards, teaches that all that the degree or certificate meant was that the people who ran the school were willing to sign their names on the sheepskin on the probability that the graduate would not actually kill a horse.

So Jacquie, there it is -- caveat emptor. The smart horse owner is an informed horse owner. This is why I wrote the 2003 "Inner Horseman" disk that talks about orthopedics in horseshoeing. It talks about the four worst sins in horseshoeing. It talks about what a normal foot actually looks like (you have almost certainly never seen a normal foot), and illustrates it to the nines. It gives complete explanations of stance and reciprocating systems that relate the limb to the body. It has wonderful clear 3D illustrations -- 13 layers -- of all the musculoskeletal anatomy of the distal limb.

Nobody is qualified to choose, hire, or supervise a farrier who does not know everything it says on that disk. I wrote the disk for your benefit, so that you could protect yourself and your horse. Because of course, you are the boss; you are responsible for supervising and questioning; and that's not only because you're morally responsible as the caretaker of the animal, but also for the very plain and practical reason that you are paying the farrier's salary. It is you who must see that you get what your horse needs.

NEVER simply turn any farrier or equine dentist loose on your horse, veterinarian, certified, string of letters after their name, or not. You have to confer, you have to approve the treatment plan. You listen to what they have to say, but they do not go ahead and treat without your explicit and informed consent, and if you don't know what a certain treatment is going to involve, you keep asking until that is made clear.

One of the grossest lacks in the farrier's education worldwide, and sometimes also in the dentist's, is they have not heard of "making a treatment plan" as being the step that must necessarily follow after diagnosis or assessment. When there is no treatment plan, there really ought to be no treatment. The practitioner needs to be able to see not only what needs to be done "today", but how what is done today is going to impact the animal in six weeks, six months, and six years. And you must be fully up on this, just as much.

And this is impossible for the practitioner unless they have a complete training in oral biomechanics and orthodontics, or limb biomechanics and orthopedics -- such as does not now exist anywhere, but is gained only by the few "through experience" or because they find a specialty course such as my limb and foot or head and neck dissection classes. And it is impossible, as I said, for you to adequately supervise operations upon your own horse unless you also at least read the disk.

Caveat emptor, in England as everywhere else. -- Dr. Deb




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