ESI Q and A Forums Home
 Search       Members   Calendar   Help   Home 
Search by username
Not logged in - Login | Register 

Post Reply
Username: *

Message:

Bold Italic Underline Align Left Center Align Right Ordered List Unordered List Quote Insert Image Insert Link Insert Code Tags  
Attachment:
Allowed extensions: bmp gif jpg jpeg png txt pdf zip

The file size should not exceed 500000 bytes
   

 Preview   Send 


Topic Review
AuthorTopic
DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3295
Status:  Offline
Posted: Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 03:52 am
Marne, several points:

-- Rice hulls are full of oil, that's the main reason to feed them. They do the same thing as vegetable oil. So if he will eat and can digestively tolerate the rice hulls, then go ahead with that.

-- The reason to rule out cubes, in other words why hay cubes are dangerous to horses that can no longer chew their food very well due to missing and/or malocclusive teeth is not that they "can't be made mushy enough." The horse does not need his food mushy, and you do not need to wet down anything you feed him unless it is excessively dusty and/or he has breathing problems. What he needs is that the size of the particles that make up whatever he comes to SWALLOW be no larger than 1/4" long. Many of the particles that make up hay cubes are in the 3/4ths to 2-inch range, just the right length so that he could and probably would swallow them, but because they are swallowed without thorough chewing, they're also just the right size to cause an intestinal impaction/impactive type colic. So the reason you need pelleted feed is that pellets are made after the hay has been through a hammer-mill, which essentially does the job that the horse's teeth can no longer do: they break all the hay down into particles the size of corn-meal. That is the size of particles that makes up the bolus (the wad of food that is actually swallowed) in a young horse whose teeth work great.

-- It does not surprise me that the horse's behavior and rideability (pleasantness for the rider) improved after you got a saddle that actually fits him.

-- You should not assume that "Arabs are just high strung." Arabs are not, in fact, particularly high strung. Neither are TB's or any other horse. When horses ACT high strung it is their way of TRYING TO TELL YOU SOMETHING. NEVER EVER accept that any horse is "just that way"!!!!

ALL horses want to be calm, to have inner peace and equanimity, at all times. But if they are jazzed on phytoestrogens, excessive carbohydrates, excessive TDN's, or by irritation from any source, i.e. ill-fitting tack, mycotoxins, inflammation of the lining of the gut tube, then it will be hard for them to find that -- you and the horse both will be working uphill.

When the horse is jazzed, I think you can expect them to be jumpy, hyper-reactive, and/or grumpy. WHENEVER you find that a horse acts this way, NEVER ASSUME THAT IS JUST THE WAY HE IS. Especially if the jumpiness/craziness represents a change over previous calmer reactivity.

You are doing what you should be doing for this old guy, and I am pleased that you're going to the effort to ask questions, consider options, and make changes. And my hat is off to your husband for helping you to develop pasturage that is appropriate for horses.

One other thing I want you to do: go read all your feedbags, supplement containers, and/or hay analyses, and find out what the magnesium and boron content of anything you're feeding him is. And give your county ag. extension agent a call, and ask them whether it is possible for you to have your soil tested for magnesium and boron level. There is good evidence that magnesium deficiency in horses can contribute to Cushing's, insulin resistance/equine "diabetes", and hyper-reactivity. Boron is also involved. IF you have evidence for low magnesium and boron levels, then you have reason to supplement; or if you have clear symptoms of Cushing's or insulin resistance, then I would say you were justified in trying a magnesium supplement. -- Dr. Deb

 

 

Jineen Walker
Member
 

Joined: Tue Jul 31st, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 46
Status:  Offline
Posted: Fri Dec 4th, 2009 12:48 am
Thanks for your reply, Dr. Deb, I thought you would be too busy with your clinic to answer. 

My 30 yr old hasn't ever had problems with any kind of food that seems to stand out too much in my memory. He can eat leaf hay just fine, no quidding, total clean up, but I was concerned that he wasn't getting enough to keep weight on with hay alone so I thought I would give him a supplement to add weight and vitamins. He refuses oil. I'll have to separate him so he can eat as he needs. At the moment the alfalfa pellet I can get him looks like shredded leaf compacted.

Of the 5 horses I have, 3 seem to have no problem big enough to worry about( nothing as severe as the other 2).
As you know my turnouts to have clover, oak and whatever to deal with.

But the other 2, one 20, who didn't make it into class with you, and the gray arab 7, I've had problems.
Last year we were talking about sugar reaction of the gray not liking to be brushed, and bolting. Worse when not exercised, better all around when fed a magnesium supplement. You saw him at his absolute best-never had been with that many horses.

Thank you for telling me that the other horse is nuts, it helps relieve the frustration of lots of reactions, behaviors and issues that just never made sense.

 I always bought rich 2nd cut, and that would energize him, so I couldn't feed all he could eat. For his long term problems, last year I put him on beet pulp with oil to add fiber and slow digestion, and had him on magnesium all winter long and he was the worst, most insane ever, and lost weight. 
I don't remember when I stopped the beet pulp and went back to forage extender and magnesium, but I watched him all spring/summer go up and down with excess energy, but was better than the winter, back to his normal hyper-active self.  He also was pulling his front shoes all the time, and I had to make adjustments there, so I know that his diet was wrong with his turnout.

I watched like a hawk this year as to limited time out, as they were never on the clover before( I didn't know before that it was bad for them, I'll get rid of it in the spring) and feeding magnesium and a mycotoxin binder to combat excess sugars in whatever they found. It was very noticeable for the two if I left them out too long or forgot the magnesium.


The most problem I saw in his behavior during the spring/summer was when he was hungry-empty stomach (also his normal behavior) I called it a sugar crash  which also meant that he was too high to get so low between feedings.

I was feeding a forage extender so I could add a vitamin supplement, mycotoxin binder and oil, and here is where the other problem seems to lie.
I have been feeding him  2lbs a day with oil. He's the same old hyper self. It got cold the other day, so I decided to add more extender, only about 1/2-1lb. He was back to total insanity like the previous winter.
So the ingredients are alfalfa, wheat middlings, molasses (which recently they took out to add flavoring and sweetener). I called the company and they told me that their alfafa wasn't lucerne, and that they wouldn't use that-isn't that funny-

This year I was able to get a lower sugar content hay that I can put in front of him, and when his belly is full he acts sedated. He still has behavioral issues, but not the hyper attention/reaction.

I really wish I had spoken up about this horse more clearly sooner with you, instead of tentatively asking here and there and trying to figure it out, just figuring I was wrong. Your right, he is nuts!But o'boy-I'm his and he let's me know it! May the next 20 years with him will be do-able, not barely tolerable. Once I get this sugar thing under control for a few months, we can work on the behavioral.

Thanks a lot, Jineen






Marne
Member
 

Joined: Thu Sep 18th, 2008
Location:  
Posts: 10
Status:  Offline
Posted: Fri Dec 4th, 2009 01:29 am
WE have tested our ground here for those elements and they were not an issue here.

thanks again for the idea.  Marne

Jineen Walker
Member
 

Joined: Tue Jul 31st, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 46
Status:  Offline
Posted: Fri Dec 4th, 2009 03:15 pm
Hi Dr. Deb

I need to know how much to feed and where to get boron. They laughed when I inquired at the supplement store-. As to the magnesium I was feeding, I just followed the label directions. For the new hay crop I was told to increase zinc. Selenium is low in New England as well.
Here's the real question: instead of me relying on the reading of the hay analysis taken from the feed store rep so that he can sell me the complementary grain,  how do I read it myself so that I can supplement accordingly?

Thank you, Jineen

Jineen Walker
Member
 

Joined: Tue Jul 31st, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 46
Status:  Offline
Posted: Fri Dec 4th, 2009 04:08 pm
Dr. Deb

Just talked to my hay analysist. He said  he hadn't tested for zinc.
He said that his Forage Extender would come in at about 6% for starch, sugars and carbs.(per lb) So would his carb-safe grain, made for insulin resistant horses.

The new hay I have would come in about 4% with 9.2 protein,and last yrs hay that I still feed about 5lbs a day has twice as much simple sugars, 1/3 more carbs. and 20.4 protein.
Jineen

Pauline Moore
Member
 

Joined: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007
Location: Crows Nest, Australia
Posts: 273
Status:  Offline
Posted: Sun Dec 6th, 2009 01:59 am
Hello Jineen

There is nothing unusual about one or two horses in a group being very sensitive to sugars and/or phytoestrogens that do not affect the other horses.  I still have two aged TBs - the 25 yr old is an easy-keeper and has always been able to eat anything with no change to his temperament; oats by the bucketful, fresh grass, bright green lucerne - nothing bothers him and he still does not need magnesium or other supplements.  The other horse is 20, has Cushings syndrome, very hard to keep weight on and is extremely sensitive to sugars - he needs magnesium and all the other supplements I've mentioned previously.  It's just the luck of the draw in the same way that some people are more able to tolerate dietary sugars than others.

When you were feeding the beet pulp to your 20 yr old, did you soak and rinse several times until the rinse water was completely clear?  Any remaining brown colouring in the water indicates that excess sugars are still present.  Also, what oil were you using?  If it was plain vegetable oil, there is a good chance it was soy based and may therefore have carried some phyotestrogens.  You've already worked out that the forage extender caused problems because of its alfalfa content together with the added sweeteners.  There are several products on sale in this country, marketed for IR/Cushings horses, with low NSC of around 6% - I would not use any of them for my Cushings horse as they have substituted high sugar material with high phytoestrogen material from soy or sunflower seed.  Relying on feed analyses can be misleading, it's not that simple, we really have to go for a lot of trial and error with each individual horse to see what best suits that particular horse.

It might also be worth checking what form of magnesium you are using.  Most horses will respond well to plain magnesium oxide even though it is not well absorbed but some horses need the chelated form which is much more highly bio-available.

Best wishes - Pauline



Jineen Walker
Member
 

Joined: Tue Jul 31st, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 46
Status:  Offline
Posted: Thu Dec 10th, 2009 03:24 pm
Hi Pauline

Thanks for your input. No, I didn't rinse the beet pulp clear-it didn't have a lot of color, or so I thought, so I got lazy with rinsing, and just soaked it.
The magnesium supplement has both oxide and chelated.

Another thought I was having in regards to my hay, is that I am in a depleted soil are for selenium. As I hunt to find that as a supplement, I have to realize that lack of selenium might play a part in Trey not liking to be brushed. I had been feeding a vitamin/mineral supplement over the past few years, and as I study the ingredients and amounts, I realize that he was getting too little of that.  I had a horse tie up many years ago, so that may be a factor. So I am off to hunt, and hopefully not over supplement, but you can't buy just one ingredient. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

  Thank you, Jineen

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3295
Status:  Offline
Posted: Thu Dec 10th, 2009 07:50 pm
Jineen, selenium supplements are easy to find -- just talk to your vet. If you really have selenium-deficient soils in your area, the veterinarian will know all about it because all the cows in the area will need a selenium drench before they calve. Your vet will be able to direct you to a variety of products, some that are just selenium, some where the selenium is mixed into either a bag of feed or into a salt block.

You need to be sure what you really are responding to by supplementing with anything, but especially with selenium because a small overdose is toxic. What I mean is, it does not matter much what YOUR OWN soil is like if the horses are getting 50% or more of their food from hay or alfalfa that is grown SOMEWHERE ELSE. Then what you have to concern yourself with is whether the hay or alfalfa is low-selenium; or else go find the very field in which your bales were grown, and have THAT soil tested.

A horse that eats hay is as good as standing on the other person's property.

Let me caution you once again against running around trying to buy ingredients one at a time in order to respond, as you think, to this or that "behavior" in your horses. While it is true that a properly balanced diet, including adequate levels of all minerals, is an aid in promoting tractability and calmness, changing the diet will not solve all or even most of your problems.

Further, Jineen, if you are trying to buy a little bit of this and a little bit of that to make your own supplement-mix, you'll never make it. It's a hobby, dear, and one in which any sane person will quickly lose interest. What you do instead is talk to your veterinarian, ask them what other people in your neighborhood are feeding. Ask the vet where the barn is locally that has the horses he finds the easiest to work with. Find out what they are feeding -- then feed that.

Once again: horses eat two things -- grass and water. They also need a red-mineral block, i.e. the one with NaCl plus a variety of trace minerals balanced for your part of the country, which can be bought at any feed store. Make sure your horse does lick the block so that you see it visibly get smaller every day. If he doesn't, then buy small blocks and break them up with a hammer and feed the resulting powdered salt-mineral mix on top of the hay to encourage the horse to eat it. Provide plenty of water.

As to grass, make sure you know what the species is so that the grass you are feeding is non-poisonous.

Go light on alfalfa, or, for some horses, none at all.

If you have insulin-resistant, founder-prone, obese, or Cushing's horses, soak any sugary greenstuff, i.e. beet pulp, cereal hay, or sweet grass hay, in water for from 30 minutes to 2 hrs. -- until the water turns the color of coca-cola.

For horses with maloccluding or absent teeth, who cannot chew their food and/or who are quidding, feed pelleted (not cubed) hay with the least amount of molasses or wax binder or none.

Once these things have been done, you will have done a workmanlike job of feeding your animals. Then, if they still have so-called "behavioral" problems, you address those by working to get the horse 100% OK on the inside, as explained in The Birdie Book. What did you think, Jineen, at the clinic, when I was so hard on that girl with the Paint horse from Pennsylvania? Did you think I was doing that because I disliked her? I don't dislike her or anybody else. She came to that clinic in order to SHOW how good her horse could PERFORM -- before she had taken care of a lot of the underlying unease in the animal. And then when I showed her "this is how you really do it" she did not like to admit to having gotten off-course. Remember how her horse went to sleep after I had handled him a few minutes?

So I want your National Show Horse gelding to be able to go to sleep, too -- in other words to be able to completely relax when you are handling or riding him. No amount of dietary alteration can ever produce this; only learning how to do it will help. -- Dr. Deb

 

SuziQ
Member
 

Joined: Tue Nov 10th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 19
Status:  Offline
Posted: Fri Jan 15th, 2010 09:40 am
Could I please ask at what age you would consider feeding Chaste berry to a horse? I have an 18 month filly who comes into season regularly and is very winky/squirty with it and also seems 'stiffer' in her back legs (I say that tentatively as her movement is full but she seems more reluctant to move). I have had the vet check her and he is monitoring her with consideration to possible cystic ovaries but is mainly putting her reaction to the season down as part of 'just developing hormones'. Feeding-wise I have cut out all lucerne (which she was put on without my knowledge by a 'well-meaning' friend!) and she is only being fed hay and a small amount of yearling mix over winter which has the least amount of molassess, soya, and lucerne that I could find.

I was wondering if a chaste berry supplement would be helpful at this age?

Thanks for all your input

Pauline Moore
Member
 

Joined: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007
Location: Crows Nest, Australia
Posts: 273
Status:  Offline
Posted: Fri Jan 15th, 2010 09:15 pm
Hello Suzi - I would be reluctant to give any medicinal herb to such a young horse without the full agreement and involvement of the vet who is monitoring her.   Chastetree berry has an effect on the pituitary gland which governs many body systems - I have not seen any reports, positive or negative, indicating its use for still-growing horses; the closest I've seen are anecdotal reports of it being used to eliminate severe acne in teenage boys.  If your vet agrees, you could possibly try it for one or two heat cycles to assist with reaching a conclusive diagnosis.

If it turns out that cystic ovaries are not the problem, it might be worth trying to find a veterinary herbalist whom you could consult.  Where do you live?

What type of pasture does your filly eat?  What type of hay are you feeding?

Best wishes - Pauline



SuziQ
Member
 

Joined: Tue Nov 10th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 19
Status:  Offline
Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 06:51 pm
Hi Pauline, thanks for getting back to me. I'm in Southern England - Surrey. She is on a clover grass and a timothy hay, as good as we can get it. I have just made the decision to move her to a different yard which is calmer and quieter with more space and a few more youngsters as I am wondering if the energy of the one of the humans who looks after her might be exacerbating the situation. Not quite sure how that works physiologically or whether it is purely a mental thing on both parts but she seems much worse around her. So I think I will monitor her for a few cycles until she's settled and then talk to the vet about the chasteberry.

Thank you!

Pauline Moore
Member
 

Joined: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007
Location: Crows Nest, Australia
Posts: 273
Status:  Offline
Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 09:46 pm
Suzi - You could try cutting out the clover grass, this is as bad as lucerne in terms of potential for disrupting hormones.  Good luck with your yard change, if this also means a change of pasture to one that doesn't have clover your problem may be solved.  Please let us know the outcome.

Best wishes - Pauline


warren
Member
 

Joined: Tue Aug 17th, 2010
Location:  
Posts: 2
Status:  Offline
Posted: Tue Aug 17th, 2010 03:44 pm
RICE HULLS

I am told that in the Philippines, horse owners feed their horses large quantities of rice hulls.  It seems they substitute rice hulls for beet pulp or oats.  In addition, I am trying to determine if, in the Philippines, farmers grow hay....or do horse owners just allow horses to graze on sugar loaded, green grass for endless hours?

Any information, advice or comments most welcome.

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3295
Status:  Offline
Posted: Tue Aug 17th, 2010 11:25 pm
Warren, rice hulls are also available as a horse feed supplement in this country. They are used for two purposes:

1. To increase the percentage of structural carbohydrates in the diet, i.e. to increase what is commonly called the 'roughage'

2. To improve the coat, and/or to help the horse gain or maintain weight, because in many cases rice hulls have a lot of oil.

I am not at all up on what horse feeds are grown or commonly fed in the Philippines, and I am not sure we have anyone reading here who is from that area. I myself would be interested in any responses from people knowledgeable or familiar with it. Also: I'm interested in learning more about horse feeding practices in tropical countries generally, and throughout Africa and Asia -- world areas that we know less about. -- Dr. Deb

warren
Member
 

Joined: Tue Aug 17th, 2010
Location:  
Posts: 2
Status:  Offline
Posted: Wed Aug 18th, 2010 12:05 am
Thank you!  I had not been aware of rice hulls being fed in this country.  I have a young student of agricultural science in the Philippines researching these issues for me.  So far, it seems that farmers grow very little hay since abundant grass exists all year around....so much sugar!




Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez