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Jacquie
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Joined: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007
Location: Nr. Frome, Somerset, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sun Mar 22nd, 2009 09:59 pm
Great, I will contact Pippa about the book. Thanks for that. I suppose we really are a nation of gardeners!

Presumably the pernicious anaemia causes the horses to be energy less etc - as in humans? Is it reversible once the garlic is stopped being fed? Is it accumulative over time increasing the effects?

I am just amazed about garlic being poisonous to horses, to be frank. I don't feed garlic as I said, but loads of my horsey acquaintances do, thinking they are being good horse owners - and it is added to many chaffs and all kinds of other feeds too as a 'beneficial' extra too! It really is quite shocking.

Sorry to go on, but how can this be allowed? Why is no-one stopping this?

Jacquie


DrDeb
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Posted: Sun Mar 22nd, 2009 10:04 pm
Tui -- hemp (Cannabis sativa) in most forms is illegal in the U.S. I don't know about Canada. Hemp pellets are not widely fed here -- I have never known or heard of anyone feeding them. Hemp products are disapproved of here because to make hemp products, you first have to grow hemp. To do that in the U.S. takes a special license, for the reason that hemp is marijuana.

The pellets may or may not contain the psychoactive ingredient that makes Mary Jane "dope". I don't know because I've never seen the lady's product, or any analysis of it; but that pellets should be free of cannabinol and other toxins contained in hemp is unlikely, since all parts of the plant are known to contain them. Horses and cattle that graze hemp get "high" -- just as humans do when they eat brownies made with marijuana. Clinical signs of poisoning by cannabinol and the more than 60 other toxins that have been isolated from this plant include central nervous system depression, hyperexcitability, vomiting, salivation, muscle tremors, and ataxia (c.f. Knight and Walter). Horses are unpredictable enough to most people without adding anything that might be psychoactive to their diet.

I am not sure what 'THC' is -- some undesirable pollutant? Who says hemp is not grown with chemicals? 'Organic hemp' -- I am not sure where you could get that.

Again, Tui: What you need is two things:

(1) A better education -- better basic information -- about what kind of an animal a horse is and what it actually needs to thrive; and

(2) Good grass, good hay, good water, and a trace-mineral block.

Incidentally, when I say "block" I mean the kind we have here in North America, that is a cube 10 inches on an edge and you set it in their stall in a rubber pan and let them lick it. The trace mineral block contains all the trace minerals a horse needs, unless you have some kind of extreme situation -- the lady who wrote in here to say 'mineral blocks don't work' was, I think, thinking of a different type of system. I agree that the idea of having the horse choose on his own what minerals he 'needs' is totally fallacious; if you offer little bowls of minerals separately, they will eat them one by one in order of saltiness. So the big unit block works because to get salt, they have to take all the minerals at once. They safely excrete anything they might not need.

In New Zealand, Jenny Paterson offers an excellent magnesium supplement that also has some other stuff in it. Since NZ does have a problem with low-Mg soils, and thus low-Mg content in grass and hay, and hypomagnesaemia is in fact frequently seen in horses and cattle on farms where magnesium is not supplemented, that is one supplement I would probably use if I were trying to grow horses there. But again, the RATIONAL course would be to first have your soil, grass, and hay assayed.

....and now as an afterthought, I'm going to revise what I said above to say I think really you need a third thing too: you need to quit worrying so much that your horses are not going to be OK. Tui, do you have some particular issues around death? Because as I said in the very first reply to you, if you provide good feed and water, your horses have as great a chance of being JUST FINE as anybody else's. You do not need supplements unless you have a particular reason to think they are called for, and you cannot raise horses by means of supplements. 

And, more than all Tui -- you cannot control every detail. If you don't give yourself some interior room on this, you will not be able to give your horses room, either, and I promise you, that will screw up their mental and psychological development and get so much in the way of their ability to be racehorses that you will have defeated your livestock yourself, long before they ever get to the track. Please give this suggestion some thought.

-- Dr. Deb

tuis mum
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Posted: Sun Mar 22nd, 2009 10:41 pm
Dr deb thanks for the quick reply..
The lady that supplies the organic hemp pellets is attending your course at the papakura rsa on Thursday perhaps you could chat to her about what she is selling she is also closely following Jenny's products. THC is the chemical that causes the person or animal to get high.

' I think i am being misunderstood completely...my horses are on pasture full time they do not have stalls they live on rhy grass which is   and therefore there is hardly any nutrition in it only crap it is very rare to find anything else in nz besides this awful grass . Unfortunately they have no other option until our pasture is re-grassed with appropriate horse friendly grass in the autumn.

As i mentioned before i do feed all 3 of jenny Patterson's products including the mag supplement you are referring to which is a magnesium/calcium supplement called alleviate and also a toxin binder called  detoxify to protect them as much as i can from the endopythes etc this is also a jenny Patterson product. I do not believe my horses would get everything they need off thirty year old rhy grass and this is why i feed Jenny's third product which is a complete mineral supplement to which they have responded greatly to. Horse need protein am i right? What i am trying to find is a safe protein product to feed i do not have access to decent hay until i have grown my own so am looking to give them protein in the feeds. I do not believe you can train any horse as hard as racing, endurance, three day eventing etc on grass and hay so i have made my decision to feed what i feed and am trying to find a good protein source thats not going to be detrimental to their health.

mustang girl
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Posted: Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 12:12 am
Well so for my first post here I am probably going to get in trouble. I mean no disrespect to Dr. Deb , but I have been feeding my horse Hemp for close to a year now and she is doing great on it. The daily dose for a horse her size (14.2) hands is 1 oz. per day. The company who makes the product is in Canada because it is still illegal to grow in the states.

The biggest misconception is that hemp IS maijuana.. Even though they both come from Cannabis sativa L., the varieties that are used to make hemp products (seed, fiber, etc.) and those that are used to make marijuana (flowering tops and leaves) are distinctly different. They are scientifically different and are cultivated in very different ways.

Here is a little more information about its benifits:  Hemp seed is a highly nutritious source of protein and essential fatty acids (EFAs) Many populations have grown hemp for its seed -- most of them eat it as `gruel' which is a lot like oatmeal. Hemp seeds do not contain any marijuana and they do not get you `high.'

Hemp seed protein closely resembles protein as it is found in the human blood. It is easy to digest; many patients who have trouble digesting food are given hemp seed by their doctors. Hemp seed was once called `edestine' and was used by scientists as the model for vegetable protein.

Hemp seed oil provides the human body with two important EFAs, omega-3 and omega-6 . Hempseed is the only seed which contains these oils with almost no saturated fat. As a supplement to the diet, these oils can reduce the risk of heart disease. It is because of these oils that birds will live much longer if they eat hemp seed.

With hemp seed, a vegan or vegetarian can survive and eat virtually no saturated fats. One handful of hemp seed per day will supply adequate protein and essential oils for an adult.

If this stuff was marijuana trust me cusoms would never let it across the border.  The product is tested on the Canadian side and then again on the U.S. side.

 

 I hope I haven't overstepped any boundries posting this info. Just for the record I am in no way associated with anyone or any company who makes these products, I am just a horse owner that has used this with great sucsess with my horse.

I also use Hemp protein powder daily as a vegan sorce of protein, I buy the product at my local health food store,it has become fairly common to see now, attesting to the fact that this is not the illegal form that can get you high.


Ok I guess I have said enough, and again I hope I didn't break any rules. If I did I apologize.

DrDeb
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Posted: Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 08:37 am
Dear Mustang -- why would you think you were going to get in trouble? I hope you did not come here looking for any.

Folks, here's the deal. I am not a botanist, and I am not a nutritionist. But I am a scientist -- a biologist -- capable of discriminating likely truth from likely exaggeration or falsehood. I am also an experienced horse owner. It is from this basis that I have given advice in this thread. What I have been urging is, above all, common sense and requisite caution.

In writing the Poison Plants book, I have acted as an "intelligent compiler of information." I rely on the printed literature, and I expect that you also, Mustang, will do that. "Printed literature" specifically excludes advertisements, testimonials, what your neighbor told you about her favorite supplement, and, especially, the statements made by any commissioned salesperson. The "literature" which I quote is the scientific literature, meaning papers published in juried or peer-refereed journals or books of the same level.

It is certainly kosher here, though, for you to tell us your personal experiences, i.e. for example that your horses are fed hemp pellets (apparently in small amounts) with no apparent ill effects. We are not equipped here, blind as we are, to assess what you mean by "no ill effects" -- in other words, I don't know what your level of horsemanship may be, what work you expect of your horses, or how sane I would think your horses were if I were to meet them. But I am not inclined to press this point, because at the very least, they haven't broken your ribs or stove your head in.

As to the rest of what you have to say....well, I had to smile about the long-lived birds. Yeah, I imagine there are still quite a few "old birds" around -- the same guys who used to sit in the dorm smokin' Mother Nature 35 years ago when I was an undergraduate. They're sure as heck old birds now! Got hair in their ears!

Because honey -- I don't care what anyone has told you -- Cannabis sativa is dope. In any way, shape, manner, or form; no matter how grown; no matter where grown; and grown for whasoever purpose, it's dope. A botanist, upon observing hemp grown in Cuba, hemp grown in Canada, hemp grown in Oregon, hemp grown in Kansas or Kamschatka, will still tell you, 'this is Cannabis sativa'. This is WHY you can't buy hemp pellets in the U.S. of good ol' A: because unless you assay every batch of pellets, you can't tell how much poison they may contain.

Now, it is true that in any poisonous species, the toxin content can vary by region, season, and local conditions (i.e. droughthy or freezing or not), and can vary also according to how the plant is treated (i.e. spray it with Roundup and between the time it is sprayed and the time it actually dies, it may have twice the normal amount of toxin in it). So perhaps what you're trying to say is that the hemp pellets you feed are made from plants grown so as to have low toxic potency. But again, the only way to really know this would be to sample the product and have it assayed.

And again, Mustang, what I have been saying to Tui is this: why are you feeding this stuff at all? Do you have evidence that on your property, the grass that you can grow does not provide adequate levels of Omega-3 fatty acids? Are you seeing signs (in your horses or other horses being raised near your farm) of deficiency, or a high incidence of skin cancer, hardening of the arteries, idiopathic allergies, rheumatoid arthritis, or other diseases that have a strong inflammatory component? For it is these conditions that would justify the feeding of supplemental omega-3's. It should be noted that the MAIN reason that omega-3 supplements are being touted for North Americans is our propensity to OVER-consume the inflammation-promoting omega-6's, which we ingest whenever we eat fried foods (French fries, KFC, potato chips, etc.). There is no evidence that we are DEFICIENT in omega-3's, only that the ratio of omega-3's to omega-6's in our typical HUMAN diet is forced out of balance by our liking for Mickey Dee's. So the need for supplemental omega-3's has no relevance at all to horsekeeping.

Please remember also, the horse's "daily required amount" of each nutrient, and the proportions and balance among all the nutrients, is different than what would be good for us humans. You must not treat a horse, in this sense, as if it were a member of your family. As I say again and again in the Poison Plants book, what's good for the goose is often fatal to the gander; or at least a waste of money.

Once again: please, people, go to reliable sources. Read Andrew Weil's newsletters; he tells you straight (and at that he sells supplements, but does not in the newsletter "push" them). PLEASE read Weil's "Healthy Aging". This will greatly help you to put things in perspective.

And Tui: yes, I do understand your problem with the ryegrass. I've said before that you are well advised to give the Alleviate and the toxin-binder in your situation, and I can advocate Jenny's products and her line of thought because I've seen the positive results that have come from her experiments in taking horses off of ryegrass.

Nevertheless -- you cannot feed the horses hemp and say that's going to be good for them. Notice that Mustang is feeding amounts so small that they could not possibly nourish a lactating mare. Also, if there ARE any poisons in the hemp, be aware that they carry right through to the milk (c.f. Knight and Walter); and be aware also that it usually takes much less total toxin, of whatever sort, to poison the foal as the dam. Therefore you would want to be twice as careful feeding a lactating mare as a horse in work.

From what you have most recently said, I now do not understand WHAT your horses must be eating. If you can't get hay, and you don't want to put your animals on the ryegrass pasture that you have, what are you feeding them? Surely it is hay, either grass of some sort or lucerne. Good grass is grown in New Zealand, and I know this because I have seen it. Particularly, you can buy lucerne of any type or quality in NZ, which is one of the world's great centers for the development of new strains of lucerne. Our correspondent Pauline Moore has had awful trouble with lucerne where she lives, in Australia, the effects being primarily due to excessive phytoestrogen content; but I can also attest that you can feed 100% lucerne to some horses and get into no trouble at all. When you get your Poison Plants book, you will see that a lot depends upon the particular cultivar that you buy. Normally one does feed lucerne to the lactating mare, and lucerne is the quickest way to get high amounts of protein into a horse. If lucerne can't work for you, then you should turn to bagged feeds that are specifically formulated for the lactating mare.

I am well aware that good hay is going to cost you money, as does any type of bagged feed. So the issue is, I think, not really that you CAN'T get suitable feed; the issue is that suitable feed is expensive.

Well, that's the way of it with horses, isn't it. They don't call racing "the sport of kings" for nothing. So you will just have to go to the extraordinary effort to find a source for good hay, and you will just have to come up with the dough. As I have said, I would far rather see you spend your hard-earned money on buying good hay than on buying supplements of any type, except those specifically required in your situation. -- Dr. Deb

 

 

tuis mum
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Posted: Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 08:56 am
Again thanks for your reply. i will steer away from the hemp...lol.  What i meant about pasture is that my horses are out to pasture 24/7 they do get hay every day but it is the hay from the property and we are in the process of re-grassing the property so untill that is done they have to graze what they have for now. thanks again for the info i have found a good breeding and young stock feed from coprice.
mustang girl
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Posted: Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 12:54 pm
Hi Dr. Deb,

 Thank you for your reply. In all sincerity I was not looking for any trouble, just to share my experiance.

 The reason I feed it is because we have virtually no pasture, and my mare is Insulin Resistant and could not graze much anyways. We neede to give her something to suppl. for the healthy fats she would normally get thru grazing. I feed good quality hay that I have tested and then a balenced mineral suppl.

Since starting on the hemp (even that small of an amount) her coat is again shiney, her hooves look amazing,  etc..even my vet was very impressed at the change.

These products are legally brought into the U.S. from Canada, and as I stated before, every batch is tested. As well as the Hemp protein powder I buy at my national health food chain. Everything that comes in to this country is tested to ensure it does not test for THC.

In rereading the posts I think there might have also been some misunderstanding, I am not feeding hemp as a replacment for food, it is a suppl. for EFA( good fats) and I am only doing that because of the virtual lack of grazing and her IR. If she was able to be turned out on grass even half the day I would not be suppl. with anything.The product I but from Canada is meant to be fed as a suppl. not a forage replacement.

The DEA did try to ban it 6-7 years ago and lost in court,because it was proven that the way these imported products are grown and treated there was no trace of dope in them.

I wont take up anymore of Dr. Debs time or space on her forum here with this, but for those who are interested there is alot of information and research about what lenghts the hemp growers in Canada have to go thru to import their products legally to the U.S.

Anyways thanks for letting me tell you my experience.

 

Ben Tyndall
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Posted: Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 03:58 pm
THC is an acronym for tetrahydrocannabinol, the "active" ingredient (psychoactive properties) in the Cannabis Sativa plant. Cannabis Sativa, often referred to as "hemp", is grown throughout the world for various industrial and nutritional purposes, primarily for use in textiles and animal feeds. It contains typically less than 0.3% THC, whereas the stuff kids buy to get high tends to contain 10-20% THC.

Toxicity of both THC and cannabis is very low for humans. The amount required to kill an adult human would be impossible to ingest (several hundred pounds of cannabis). I don't know if toxicity has been established for horses, Knight and Walter's comments notwithstanding.

My experience: I fed a cannabis-based supplement to my TB gelding for 6 months, in addition to a  hyaluronate powder, as a remedy for arthritis in the fetlock area. I didn't see any ill effects from either. I ended up dropping the cannabis-based supplement and sticking with the hyaluronate powder, not because I saw any effect one way or the other, but because the literature I read on the efficacy of hyaluronate was convincing.

...Ben

DrDeb
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Posted: Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 07:18 pm
Ben -- THC is poison, the toxic ingredient. Knight & Walter state that cases of intoxication (that means "poisoning") by Cannabis have been reported for all classes of livestock except chickens (see, there's those old birds again). Generally, this occurs through the animal grazing the plant -- dope grows "wild", especially along fencerows, throughout North America from Great Slave Lake south into Mexico.

I do believe you with regard to the low toxic content of hemp pellets, however, because you supply some actual data (which I assume you are getting from "guaranteed minimum analysis" on the feedbag), and it does not sound to me like the small amounts used as a feed supplement would be capable of intoxicating a horse.

And it was not necessarily a bad idea to try the stuff against arthritic conditions. You found that hyaluronic acid was more effective, and that would be expected. Mustang tells us she's using the hemp as a coat and hoof improver, i.e. a little oil in there and a little protein. This could be supplied 100 other ways, but if hemp pellets are nontoxic and cheaper than canola oil, or less likely to go rancid, then be my guest.

That's my only concern, you see -- that we not be poisoning our horses because we have gotten so "sold" on the general idea of supplementation, which is the heartfelt greatest desire and hope of every salesman. -- Dr. Deb

mustang girl
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Posted: Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 08:14 pm
Well since the conversation is continueing I thought I would share this article, as this seems to be a group who appreciates learning and research.

It is a 28 pg. pdf this is the link. http://www.votehemp.com/PDF/naihc.hemp.mj.pdf

The writer is:


About the Author: Dr. West holds a Ph.D. in Plant Breeding from the University



of Minnesota and has spent 18 years as a commercial corn breeder. Since 1993 he has



served as an advisor to the emerging hemp industry regarding industrial hemp



germplasm. His work, “Fiber Wars: the Extinction of Kentucky Hemp” (1994), a



pioneering discussion of the functional difference between hemp and marijuana,


and his other writings on hemp and agriculture are available online.

It does a better job then I could of explaining the differences between industrial hemp and marijuana.

The hemp I get from Canada is milled from the whole plant not pellets. I am not familiar with the product the other member was refering to. It is not cheap, but canola and corn oils are contraindicated for Insulin Resistant horses, so those are not options for us. Hemp has been found to have the closest make up to grass,with the omegas, so it is very easy on the horses to utilize and they don't need alot to see benifits.

 For the record I am not a big on supplaments. Besides the little bit of hemp my mare gets a few extra minerals to make up for the deficincies in our hay, and a min. amount of APF, to help with her metabolism, thats it. If my mare could consume more grass she wouldnt even be getting the hemp. I am constantly amazed at the number of suppl. on the market for horses, it is a big money making business thats for sure.

 

tuis mum
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Posted: Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 08:18 pm
gauranteed minimum anayalis for the hemp pellets i am reffering to are 30% protien, 8.5% fats of 3 and 6 and 25.5% fiber. Recomended daily feeding amout is between 1 to 2 cups a day.

cardio health, hooves and coats. support for joints and tendons andJoint issues and  of any kind, insulin resitance and lamanitic conditons or any inflamation conditions. excellent sorce of good fats, protein and fiber, improved muscle function and stamina, safe to feed to all horses including lactating mares and foals, central nervous system buffer etc etc the list goes on.

Like i was saying i am looking for a supplement for these specific conditions which is why i started to consider it. Dr deb i think i mentioned the distributor for this product is attending your course on thursday at papakura rsa and i had planned to meet her there to pick up a couple of bags maybe  you could have a chat with her about this product she is selling. I dont intend to feed it to all my horses just two that have  specific conditions.

Jacquie
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Posted: Wed Mar 25th, 2009 09:04 pm
Hi DD

Today I  received your DVD on poisonous plants and have skim read a little of it. I love the photos and the text is going to take me a long time to read properly. What an amazing task to have assembled such a huge amount of information. Most admirable. I know many of the plants from my herbaceous borders and hanging baskets in my garden - other countries weeds are our prized garden flowers here! Some I knew were risky for horses but many I did not know about. What a fantastic resource.

thanks

Jacquie


Kuhaylan Heify
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Posted: Thu Sep 26th, 2019 01:54 pm
Speaking of whivch I've googled around and found some entries stating that both Dandelion and false dandelion are implicated in stringhalt, and Other icky kinds of spasmodic movement. The entries said that the bad stuff in the two plants attacks the nerve sheaths in the horse. So I need to know if that's the case.
best
Bruce Peek
DrDeb
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Posted: Fri Sep 27th, 2019 01:06 am
Bruce, you really need to either obtain, or if you've already bought it, then get around to reading "Poison Plants in the Pasture: A Horse Owner's Guide."

That way, you won't sound like you've just discovered something that has been known, and publicized, and made easily available, to our readership for years (Poison Plants in the Pasture was published in 2005). Cheers -- Dr. Deb

DrDeb
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Posted: Sun Nov 17th, 2019 04:26 am
Reply to Tui's Mum: I have no connections whatsoever with any distributor of cannabis or any other herbal supplement, never have and never will.

There is absolutely ZERO scientific research showing that cannabis is necessary for horses' health or soundness or saying that it is effective for pain relief in equines; nor any which gives us any firm idea at all that, even if cannabis were shown to be effective, what the appropriate dosage would be.

Again and again: what horses need for good health is proper pasturage, good hay fed in small amounts on a regular schedule, and clean water.

Please don't try to "sell" anyone here on your own enthusiasms or fads of the moment -- that goes for you and anyone else who reads or posts here. And please do not, ever, associate or try to associate my name with your favorite fad. Your continuing courtesy and discretion in this matter is highly appreciated. -- Dr. Deb




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