ESI Q and A Forums Home
 Search       Members   Calendar   Help   Home 
Search by username
Not logged in - Login | Register 

Quote Post
Username: *

Message:

Bold Italic Underline Align Left Center Align Right Ordered List Unordered List Quote Insert Image Insert Link Insert Code Tags  
Attachment:
Allowed extensions: bmp gif jpg jpeg png txt pdf zip

The file size should not exceed 500000 bytes
   

 Preview   Send 


Topic Review
AuthorTopic
DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3232
Status:  Offline
Posted: Mon Apr 15th, 2019 09:36 am
Well, she might very well have researched the original sources in the same way that I did. And she would have heard the tale if she read Alex Mackay-Smith's "Colonial Quarter Running-Horse." So let's give her the benefit of the doubt until we know otherwise. I have ordered one of her books, so we will see. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Kuhaylan Heify
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 30th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 70
Status:  Offline
Posted: Tue Apr 16th, 2019 03:45 pm
Ok. So, looking at the blood horse on line, they mentioned that indeed the stayer lines in the u.s. through Harrod and Matchem are getting rare. Is it becoming the consensus that stayer ability is carried through the Y chromosome?
Or is it linked to other chromosomes. I have run across other references to a speed gene, a middle distance gene, and a distance gene.
best
Bruce Peek
DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3232
Status:  Offline
Posted: Tue Apr 16th, 2019 09:05 pm
No such beasts, genetically. Much too simple; 'popular' explanations. Speed is mediated by thousands of genes.

Bruce, I wish you'd get the back issues suggested, then you could quit with these types of questions, which are literally ALL answered in the articles I previously suggested. It would be SO nice if my students could read the materials that I provide FIRST, and then ask questions. -- Dr. Deb

Kuhaylan Heify
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 30th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 70
Status:  Offline
Posted: Thu Apr 18th, 2019 03:26 pm
Dear Dr. Deb.. Got the subscription started ok.. But the back issues guy said they don't have them listed by number
only by month and year.. A conundrum for sure. Is there a corresponding list available?
best
Bruce Peek
DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3232
Status:  Offline
Posted: Thu Apr 18th, 2019 05:08 pm
OK, Bruce, here's the list:

November, 2013 (No. 434)

April, 2014 (No. 439)

November, 2014 (No. 446)

January, 2015 (No. 448)

February, 2015 (No. 449)

April, 2015 (No. 451)

May, 2015 (No. 452)

June, 2015 (No. 453)

November, 2015 (No. 458)

September, 2016 (No. 467)

October, 2016 (No. 469)

February, 2017 (No. 473)

April, 2017 (No. 475)

June, 2017 (No. 477)

May, 2018 (No. 488)

November, 2018 (No. 494)

Also, I want to add that I have by now received the book "Legacy of Lexington" by Kathleen Kirsan and she turns out to be entirely legitimate. She is not a plagiarist; rather, this is an good example of "author parallelism" -- in other words, she and I have both studied the primary literature (historical documents, old pedigrees, original studbooks) and thus we report much the same facts.

I know for sure that I have been unaware of Ms. Kirsan, and I do believe she has also been quite unaware of me, as I am not cited in her bibliography. Or, perhaps she has known about the EQUUS series but not cited it because she felt that it was written on a more general level than her interest. Her book is quite a thick tome which goes into considerable detail concerning pedigree analysis and the relationships between individual horses and particular bloodlines. Her interest and focus is on breeding better sporthorses; mine is in teaching equestrian history. So although we have read the same background material, we make different use of it.

I know what Ms. Kirsan read as background material because the first two things I look at when I find a non-fiction book written by anybody is whether the book is indexed and whether it contains a bibliography or "references cited". Kirsan's book is indexed, and it does have a bibliography. However, the citations in the bibliography are incomplete; she gives just enough information (author, title, date) so that you know she is aware of that particular pre-existing book. This is the form usually used by non-degreed persons when they get published, because they don't realize how much work this puts the critical reader to -- in order to check up on her facts, given the incomplete citations, I'll have to complete them myself by going to the Library of Congress online catalog and hope to be able to get the complete citations there. Only with a complete citation (which includes publisher's name and city, ISBN number if there is one or other identifying number, and number of pages) can the scholarly reader obtain the book which seems to need checking.

Now, I do not expect that every reader is going to want to read or would have the time or resources to obtain, all the primary or background literature. That's what EQUUS Magazine was founded many years ago in order to do -- to present interesting biological and historical material relating to horses and horsemanship in an authoritative way with accurate facts, but with excellent photographs and graphics so that the articles are attractive to look at, and with excellent writing so that they make engaging reading that any horse owner can understand.

Cheers -- Dr. Deb
Also, before I forget Bruce -- in your reply would you please give the telephone number you've been speaking to the guy at EQUUS who handles back issues. I'd like everyone to know it for their convenience. Thanks -- DB



Kuhaylan Heify
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 30th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 70
Status:  Offline
Posted: Fri Apr 19th, 2019 12:12 am
Dear Dr. Deb. The guy I talked today at Equus can be reached at 800-829-5910. I have to call them back ,myself with the dates to get back copies.. Many thanks for the info. I think our American Thoroughbreds are way overlooked for sport purposes. Luckily enough the Barn I just moved to has some horses left of their old breeding program going to Dark Ronald,( or is it Bay Ronald)and a bunch of not currently fashionable sporty distance looking horses. To me, big horses with lots of bone, built level without the downhill orientation..
best
Bruce Peek
DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3232
Status:  Offline
Posted: Fri Apr 19th, 2019 06:58 am
Bruce, you can't get better horses than Dark Ronald or Bay Ronald (they are son and sire, both bred by the Duke of Windsor). 90% of German sporthorse breeding goes back to one or the other of them. Despite being of the Eclipse family, they are, just as you say, substantial and well-balanced for riding as opposed to being so extreme as to be suitable only for racing.

When you get the articles you're about to order, you will find me quoting George Morris concerning the wasting of American bloodlines in trade for inferior Warmbloods for purposes of jumping and dressage.

Find out who Captain Hiram Tuttle was, and why he's important, and what sort of horses he had and won on, by reading the articles.

And by all means go over to http://www.allbreedpedigree.com and look up Dark Ronald's ancestry and that of many another good horse and bad.

Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Kuhaylan Heify
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 30th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 70
Status:  Offline
Posted: Fri Apr 19th, 2019 04:02 pm
Dear Dr. Deb. Years ago when in grad school I was able to do a broadcast feature on Major Robert Borg.. He said that Tuttle had recruited him for the army, I think in the 1920s. Borg went on to be on the army team which medalled in the 1948 games. He sounded to me like a complete Baucherist. He told Dressage and CT, when Bezugaloff was its editor that on the voyage to Europe for the 48 Olympics he ,'performed all of the neck flexions", with the teams horses. The Wikepedia entry for Tuttle states that as well as getting a medal in 1932 he( Tuttle) was told by the German team coach that the Americans needed German horses or the German judges wouldn't give them a fair shake. Acknowlidging even then that the judging was hopelessly corrupt.
Also didn't Tuttle own and ride Jenny Camp, the American Saddlebred?
best
Bruce Peek
DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3232
Status:  Offline
Posted: Fri Apr 19th, 2019 09:54 pm
Good, you know about Capt. Tuttle, the only person ever to have won an individual medal (bronze) in Olympic dressage from the U.S. He won it on a Morgan X TB, a typical Army-bred officers' mount, identical to what is now called a 'UVM-bred Morgan', that he bought off the breeder for the grand sum of $1. The breeder thought the horse too big and coarse, which of course he is neither one.

So now I have to tell you another magazine subscription you need to get -- Eclectic Horseman, and order the back issues with my articles in them if you don't have them already. I reviewed Tuttle in one of those and presented pictures of his horses.

Jenny Camp was indeed sired by Gordon Russell when he was serving as an Army Remount stallion, but she is not a Saddlebred. Her dam's parentage is not certainly known but is thought to have been TB X American Standardbred. Do as I have asked, Bruce, and go to http://www.allbreedpedigree.com and look her up. When it pulls the pedigree, click on the little "i" button at the top and read the information posted there, which I find to be generally accurate in reviewing a lot of different pedigrees. -- Dr. Deb

Kuhaylan Heify
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 30th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 70
Status:  Offline
Posted: Wed Sep 18th, 2019 03:02 pm
Dear Dr. Deb: Congratulations on a fine article on the Quarter horses in the current Equus. I was quite taken with that picture you included of the super sire Leo. To me he kind of looks like a UVM Morgan. He appears to have his neck set a bit higher then most of the other horses, along with the especially nicely configured hind quarters. I'm looking for a new bigger horse. So far I'm having a heck of a time finding an american bred with sufficient bone, good quarters, and a high set neck. All part of the journey I guess.
best
Bruce Peek
DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3232
Status:  Offline
Posted: Thu Sep 19th, 2019 06:34 am
Thanks, Bruce. Yes, those articles do take quite a bit of research and effort.

I agree with you concerning the appearance of the stallion Leo; he does look like a Morgan. Note from his pedigree that he is mostly Thoroughbred. He made a very good cross on a lot of QH mares. To me his very best quality, though, was goodmindedness and tractability.

As to your idea to now get a bigger horse: I rejoice to hear it. Let me make a few suggestions:

1. Don't buy anything narrow-chested or long-backed. You're a big man and you have a certain amount of weight, despite not being overweight.

2. DO look for a taller horse, especially one with a ribcage that is deep. You can take a horse with a rather wide back -- one of your objectives should be to find something that will "soak up" the length of your very long legs, thus helping you to find a much better balance on horseback than your current horse can offer.

3. The quality of having a deep, wide ribcage will be for you more important than whether the horse is specially up-fronted or beautiful in front. Just so long as the neck attachment is reasonably good -- in other words, that the horse is not flat-out ewe-necked, I think we can get along with it.

4. I would not be looking particularly at Quarter Horses, because so many of them have body-balance issues, i.e. they run downhill in balance. It would be ideal if you could find a Morgan X Thoroughbred of sufficient size. A well-broken Warmblood would also do, or a draft X Thoroughbred cross. On the cheaper end of the spectrum, you might also look at a Standardbred -- but do be sure that it has both a good trot and canters readily. And remember, we are talking horses 16 hands and up for you, as that is what it will take to get you properly seated and get your legs taken up.

5. If you want to get into gaited horses, a big Tennessee Walker would fill your bill very well too, but again, I would not buy this kind of horse unless it trots as well as gaits and it canters fluidly and takes up the canter without a lot of fuss.

Good luck with your search and I'll be excited to see what you come up with. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Kuhaylan Heify
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 30th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 70
Status:  Offline
Posted: Fri Sep 20th, 2019 05:19 am
Dear Dr. Deb: Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try to hew to them..I'm thinking that breed doesn't matter so much as does conformation, soundness, and athletic movement.
Also I've been reading more of Kirsans' stuff about how the Hobby- Thoroughbred blend breeds( which were the mount of choice for Cavalry officers) formed the basis for the early Nations cup and International competitors. So maybe a stout Saddlebred if I could find one would fill the bill. It would be a kick in the pants to use what has become a non traditional breed to smoke the warmbloods.
After all Chuck Grant, Pops Konyot, Ostermeier(sp) all owned, rode and showed Saddlebreds to great success. Kirsan implys that the Fei is moving toward not allowing people to compete unless they do so on Warmbloods. Warmbloods," centuries old breeding tradition in reality goes back to about the 1820's.
Best
Bruce Peek
DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3232
Status:  Offline
Posted: Sun Sep 22nd, 2019 09:49 pm
Bruce, I like Saddlebreds very much, however, I only like the Saddlebreds that I remember from prior to 1975, which were for the most part stout, broad-backed and broad-chested, and substantial. I would not advise you to buy what's out there now; if you do that, you'll be right back with the same problems you currently have, with too hot a horse, and a horse that will not take up your legs.

You might find the sort of ASB that I would advise in Canada. Canadian breeders (of all breeds) tend to retain "antique" types for a long time, stuff that has gone out of fashion in the US.

The problem of finding a suitable ASB is exactly why I suggested a Morgan X TB. It will look and function almost exactly like an old-fashioned Saddlebred.

Or else, you can go talk to the Flying-U, the rodeo stock contractor Cotton Rosser's place. The sort of Paint he & his family breeds is actually (and I think quite unbeknownst to the Rossers) an excellent sort of cross between QH and old-fashioned ASB. My Painty Horse was one of them and he would have suited you very well -- exactly the sort of thing I would advise for you. Some of Rosser's stuff is flat-out beautiful, and even for the low end they will want money, but it will be more than worth it. Much better than a Warmblood IMHO for the same price.
 
Good luck, let me know what transpires. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Kuhaylan Heify
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 30th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 70
Status:  Offline
Posted: Mon Sep 23rd, 2019 07:31 am
That's what I was thinking.. Going just from Dream horse, the warm bloods have quite a bit higher prices than the domestic breds.. But It seems to me the warmbloods pictured either have their legs covered up to hide something- most likely their teeney leg bone or have smallish leg size for their body size. My ideal would be something like the bone size your Ollie showed. I say amen to your sentiments about most of the current day saddlebreds- way to refined but maybe a crossbred would do. Thanks for the names of Painties breeders I'll google them around. Will just have to keep beating the bushes. The nice thing about doing this in the fall is that prices often are more reasonable..
best
Bruce Peek
Aloha
Member
 

Joined: Fri Feb 3rd, 2012
Location:  
Posts: 47
Status:  Offline
Posted: Tue Sep 24th, 2019 09:49 pm
Hi Bruce!
Just want to wish you luck in your horse search.

The warmbloods you see on Dreamhorse do not have their legs covered up because they are necessarily hiding anything. They are mostly going to be dressage or jumping horses and they generally use leg protection. Polo wraps if dressage. Probably white if for sale or at big name clinics. More boots if jumpers. The western riders go more for the neoprene type sport boots. You will probably have to ask them to send you some photos without wraps.

Anyhow, you might find a nice warmblood cross.
Both of mine had/have a good dose of Thoroughbred going back to Hyperion, hence back to Bay Ronald.

I studied bloodlines and conformation hard back when I bred and raised my two. If you look at any warmbloods, I am more than happy to give you my insight into the bloodlines, temperaments, etc. if I have any knowledge of those lines. And of course, as we know, even the best temperament can be screwed up with the right training.

I briefly rode a mare of the type of Saddlebred Dr. Deb mentions. Scared me at the time. The Quarter Horse mare I had been riding had died and the person that owned her knew of a neighbor's Saddlebred who needed some care and exercise. She was a big gorgeous mare. I realized decades later that what I felt under saddle, a feeling like she was going to explode, was the sheer power and substance that that old style horse had. She didn't take one wrong step with me on her.

Good luck in your search!
- Monica



Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez