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DrDeb
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Posted: Thu Mar 23rd, 2017 11:07 pm
Thank you very much, Allen! I hope the foal has some hope of quality of life, or else they euthanatize before it gets miserable for him. This birth defect is of genetic origin and especially common in miniature ponies and Arabs.

BTW, I just gave you and Navegador some national mention -- did a feature for Equus Magazine on 'Mastery -- What it is and how to find it' and used the photo you posted here of you working him on the 'palo verde' at the Spanish Walk. Look for it to come out, I hope, sometime this fall, kind of interpolated between parts of the horse breed history series. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Allen Pogue
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Posted: Thu Mar 23rd, 2017 11:39 pm
Hello Dr. Deb,
The foal ( we nicknamed her Barbara, after that famous singer with a funny nose) is doing very well, thriving on 3.5 gallons of foal formula a day in addition to what milk she can cajole out of her reluctant dam, and a selection of solid creep feeds ( milk pellets and cold pressed alfalfa w/ essential oils) .. The dam seems to only allow her to nurse if handler is nearby ( much better than a month ago when she had to be caught and held) .. Dr. Schumacher said he will do the reconstructive surgery after six months of age.. Until then he says the facial bones do not hold screws well enough to keep a steel plate attached. A piece of rib is harvested and grafted into place, a complicated surgery yes, but it is the only chance an afflicted foal has to live a normal life. We are very lucky to have surgeons that innovate such procedures. I have seen 'before and after' pics and the results ( even years later) are quite acceptable. Dr Schumacher told be he did not think the condition was inheritable until recently when a same pair of stallion and mare produced two consecutative foals both with wry nose.
This mare has an extremely!! short back which made me think that room in the uterus might have been limited and thus a factor. Just an old wives tale?
Thanks for the heads up on the article I will look for it. "Mastery" is an elusive concept, though sometimes an especially talented and willing horse can make one look good (the gray Arab on the dais was the first horse I trained) .

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Aloha
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Posted: Sun Mar 26th, 2017 11:28 pm
I'd never heard of this before! How alarming. I wonder how often a cleft palate accompanies this.

Many years ago I saw a pony who had an offset nose. They said the dam had been kicked while pregnant and that it had broken the foal's nose. I've always wondered about that. And now, after learning about this, I'm thinking it was probably genetic. Wouldn't a foal deep inside the womb be pretty well protected from a kick?

That's gotta wreak havoc with the teeth.

Good luck with her Allen.
Allen Pogue
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Posted: Mon Mar 27th, 2017 04:54 am
Aloha,
I am sure that story was just made up by somebody that did not know better.
Here is a photo of my sidekick Shane holding Barbara's mouth open to show the mismatched front teeth. This is why a radical reconstructive surgery must be attempted.
There are more pics on a FB page showing how the daily care of this is progressing .. she is thriving exceptionally well, at a rather exorbidant cost in milk replacement firmula. So my daily goal is to get her eating more solid food , Today she 'discovered' alfalfa and ate half a bucket in just a couple hours. even though she has to go at the food sideways.

Attachment: image.jpg


DrDeb
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Posted: Mon Mar 27th, 2017 11:01 am
Aloha -- this is an excellent example of the penalty we force horses to pay when we breed for just one or a few traits that seem important to us. Miniatures are highly prone to this genetic disease or malformation of the skull, and the reason is that breeders have considered getting the small size and the "cuteness" so important that they were willing to breed stallions and mares that had been parents to foals with wry nose, and the breeders knew this.

In cattle breeding, bulls that throw genetic diseases have their papers pulled. The saying among cattle breeders is, "the bull is half the herd." This is just as true with horses, but since mares are not normally served in herds as cows are, it is not as obvious to horse breeders. I also think that horse breeders have been extremely short-sighted and unwise, going as I said above for very small and trivial, superficial characteristics rather than putting as first priority the health and wellbeing of the individual, and the long-term sustainability of the breed.

This is why I said in the Equus Magazine feature on American Pharoah, "this is no longer a horse race, it's a clone war." Inbreeding kills. -- Dr. Deb


Kuhaylan Heify
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Posted: Mon Mar 27th, 2017 12:21 pm
So, is the only way to fix that with radical outcrossing? Or does the sire or dam with the heaviest inbreeding score still tend to dominate the outcomes
best
Bruce Peek
DrDeb
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Posted: Mon Mar 27th, 2017 07:37 pm
That isn't how genetic dominance works, Bruce.

One should never breed any horse known to produce any genetic disease. -- Dr. Deb

Allen Pogue
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Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2017 07:06 pm
Wry nose - update
Hello Dr. Deb, et.al.
Here is a photo of ' Barbara' the Arabian filly born last January with a wry nose. On July 6th she underwent corrective surgery at the Univ. of TN by Dr. Jim Schumacher. He told me that he has done about 15 of these radical procedures over the years, and that while only doing one or two a year makes it hard to completely perfect the operation, the results in Barbara's case are quite acceptable if not remarkable. With regular dental work to establish then maintain proper occlusion of her teeth she will be able to live a complete normal life..

Here is a link to a TV news story about Barbara after the operation
http://kxan.com/2017/07/07/dripping-springs-horse-gets-southern-hospitality-after-rare-surgery/

Allen Pogue
Dripping Springs Tx

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danimtnbkr
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2018 11:54 pm
Hi Mr. Pogue - My name is Danielle. I live in Southern California and I have a 5 week old filly with wry nose (pic attached). I’d really appreciate the chance to speak with you about your experience with Barbara and the surgery that was performed. I’m trying to educate myself on what options are available and if I pursued the surgical option what I could expect. Would you be willing to chat with me briefly?

Thank you in advance for your consideration.

Danielle

Attachment: 9248E9A6-2545-4F9D-91BA-901981412C80.jpeg


DrDeb
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Posted: Sat May 12th, 2018 02:07 am
Allen, I hope you can help the lady posting above with the bay Arab filly.

To answer your previous question -- Dr. Schumacher is correct, the condition is HIGHLY inheritable and has nothing at all to do with the mare's conformation. Her uterus is undoubtedly of normal size, just packed under less vertebral or pelvic length.

Wry nose is most frequent in two breeds: Arabians, especially inbred individuals of Crabbet lineage, especially the Raffles bloodline; and miniature ponies, which are likewise sometimes highly inbred and/or bred (like Arabs) for the wrong reasons, i.e., to satisfy a very superficial idea of beauty or "cuteness", i.e. big dish/big jibbah/abbreviated face/small-diameter muzzle. Wry nose is virtually unknown among breeds with the most functional heads and/or the lowest inbreeding, vis., Andalusians, Lusitanos, Lipizzans, Halflingers. An arched or slightly arched facial profile is a pretty good guarantee that the animal will not produce wry nose. -- Dr. Deb

Allen Pogue
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Posted: Sat May 12th, 2018 03:37 am
Hello Danielle,
Barbara’s surgery went well. And although a bone graft did not ‘take’ the pins and a plate that had been installed to hold everything in place did their job and the gap filled in with granulation tissue which slowly calcified.
Barbara is doing fine, living a completely normal life and only a little extra dental work is needed to keep the teeth level and aligned
Dr. Schumacher works out of the Univ of Tennessee at Knoxville. He is easy to contact with just a little detective work on Google. Here is a link to a news report that really saved the day as far as funding the surgery . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8ColpDZCdM

We raised $16k overnight ( using gofundme) and a lot more over the next couple months and a follow up newscast . Barbara became sort of a “cause celebre”.. The photo was taken at a welcome home party. Contact me privately if you want to talk to the owner and discuss more with her..

Attachment: 6EB3B097-DAB9-4553-B39E-13CA9A0219CF.jpeg


Allen l. Pogue
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Posted: Wed May 30th, 2018 02:32 pm
Hmm? Seems like the owner of the wry nosed horse has dropped the ball?
DrDeb
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Posted: Wed May 30th, 2018 06:00 pm
Allen, they do that all the time here. I'll be real enthused about somebody's question and the opportunity that presents for me to help them, and I take real time to write them at length with whatever suggestions, and then they just never reply. I'm never sure if it's because they didn't like the answers given or just don't have the capacity to maintain a consistent interest or conversation. We live in a "sound bite" universe these days. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Allen
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Posted: Fri Jun 1st, 2018 12:44 pm
Hello Dr. Deb,
The best part of the story is how incredibly well Barbara is doing. Because she was “semi - rejected” by the dam she required an extraordinary amount of attention. My sidekick Shane learned a lot during the process. This was a second orphan. to raise, a job I would not wish on anyone. It was made much easier by the use of a timed milk (formula) dispensing apparatus. This is a redrigerator to keep the formula fresh and a pump and timer that sent a measured amount of formula rhru a tube into a bucket hung in the stall. I had to make a low wide shelf that overhung the bucket to keep the mare from drinking the foal’s food.
Something interesting that was reinforced by this foal and the previous orphan was that a foal with make a facial expression with their lips and tongue to indicate that they are hungry. Sort of an upward curl of the upper lip and in some cases they roll their tongue into a ‘U’ shape ( as if they were latched onto a teat). This behavior is apparently hardwired into their instinct. It is interesting because the first trick in our book on horse training is teaching a horse to ‘smile’ as a way of engaging the
handler. The theory is if the horse knows the human will listen when they ‘talk’ there may be an increased likelyhood that the horse listen when the handler ‘talks’.. wishful thinking? maybe.. but intent is a very powerful training aid.

Allen
DrDeb
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Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2018 08:49 am
Allen, yes, absolutely -- I always tell students to expect that, once they get their horse mannered (per either lessons 'live' with me, or else they have listened to the 2-CD set entitled 'Mannering Your Horse' that they can get through our Membership section) -- once they get their horse mannered, the essence of that is that they are for the first time teaching the animal to pay attention to them, in other words, they are teaching the animal that THE HANDLER REALLY MATTERS. And the horse comes to believe indeed that the handler really matters. Tom Dorrance used to say: 'until I have THAT I don't even want to get on them.'

So once the horse begins re-prioritizing his life so that what the handler wants starts to be equal, and then even more, important than what the animal would have wanted to do on its own -- then we begin teaching them the first so-called 'trick'. In my way of doing things that will be teaching them to step on a target object, usually a white board laid on the ground. They learn to pick their foot up when we ask and then set it down on the board. This then we build into standing on the board with two feet. This is the basis for then next teaching the two-footed or plie bow, and next after that, stepping up onto the circus drum or platform.

And what I tell students to expect is, that once the first lesson is taught -- the real core of that learning is not so much the particular thing that the horse has learned to do, but that the horse learns that humans have something more about them than just coming to bring the feed; that humans can communicate sensibly, which surprises many horses very much; and that the horse can itself learn something from the human -- at least from the human who is also, and equally, interested in and capable of learning something from the horse. It is at this point that I find the horse starts to react with real joyfulness whenever they see me coming out to get them, because horses just love to play and they love to be rewarded for doing what the handler asks, once they have come to care about the handler. Cheers -- Dr. Deb





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