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zuzana
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Posted: Mon Nov 30th, 2015 07:07 pm
Thank you so much for your insights Dr Deb and Linda.
Obie
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Posted: Mon Nov 30th, 2015 08:52 pm
Thank you Dr. Deb, for pointing out the things I missed. I do get confused with cause and effect. After looking up the difference I realize that cause is the latter and effect is the former, and finding the cause of something would be asking questions like how or why something happens, and finding the effect of something would be to ask what happened. Something to work on!
Linda
Obie
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Posted: Mon Nov 30th, 2015 08:58 pm
Your welcome Zuzana.
Thank you for sending in the photo for observation and discussion. Is this your horse? What breed is he? He is lovely. I have a soft spot in my heart for grey horses.
Linda
zuzana
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Posted: Mon Nov 30th, 2015 11:25 pm
Hi Linda,
yes it's my horse, he's about 12, arab/warmblood cross. With a pretty troubled past before I bought him and an incredible amount of tension.
But improving all the time, despite my many mistakes :)
zuzana
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Posted: Mon Nov 30th, 2015 11:52 pm
so what about this one?

Attachment: 12- 4.jpg


DrDeb
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Posted: Wed Dec 2nd, 2015 03:12 pm
Zuzana, I have had a busy day today so no time to get back to you sooner, and so you've gotten a little ahead of me. I had been intending to say that we were not at all "done" discussing the first photo, of the gray horse.

What hasn't been addressed there is the whole question which you raised concerning "carrying power." I'd like you to develop a clearer understanding of what this means, rather than just parroting a phrase because you know or suspect that it's something that I or others would approve of. What is "carrying power", and how would you tell if the horse was "doing it" or "capable of doing it"? What I want to get to is what the KEY is to our ability to ask it of the horse and have him respond by "doing it".

Once we get that squared away, we can then turn to the question of why you would show us a photo where you actually ARE driving the horse crooked (i.e. the black horse), even though that was pointed out as a fault in the previous discussion. Or are you needing more explanation of how to tell when the horse is going/being driven crooked? If this is the case then please first tell me how YOU think you would tell, i.e. what do you scan for in the photo?

And why do you still have the stick? Throw away the stick, and learn that the problem with the stick is not only that it is a much stronger driving aid than either of the pictured horses require, but also that you're pointing it toward the wrong part of the horse's body, i.e. you're pointing it toward the hindquarters -- nearly always an error. What part of the body should the tail of the lead-rope, the flag, or the ball-stick be pointed toward? It is partly due to this error that the gray horse continues to go wrongside-out, instead of ceasing to even try that starting in about the second minute of your mutual relationship. -- Dr. Deb

 

 

zuzana
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Posted: Wed Dec 2nd, 2015 07:43 pm
Thank you Dr Deb,
I really appreciate your effort to help me learn.

I didn't think I was parroting phrases - that is how I understand "carrying power". I am not sure what else to add to my answer, I repeat it here for ease of reading:

"carrying power - the hind leg (one at a time in trot) spending more time under the horse (towards the front of him) rather then behind him. I look at where the hind hoof touches the ground - relative to the horse's trunk (not the front hoofprint...) - and where the hoof leaves the ground, relative to the horse's pelvis. Also the amount of flexion in the joints of the hind leg upon landing and take-off phase"

Please help me understand this better, Dr Deb! :)

I want to say that untracking is the key to this, but that is not coming from my reasoning, although I do not disagree - just haven't practised this enough (and likely there is my answer, right?)

About the second photo - I do consider it less correct and I thought I would post it to learn to see it more clearly.
Now I am really glad I did, as I do not see the "crooked" - what do I look at? If I had to guess, and what I look for right now is (in no particular order):

*hind feet following fronts - the horse not putting it's haunches out or in of the circle. But often when things seem right, the inside hind steps slightly to the outside (of the circle) of the inside front hoofprint. Again, it's not that I think this is right, it's what I observe in my experimenting.

* horse's spine following the line of the circle - twirling the head, bending the neck, rotating the ribcage, all the way to the tail following the line of the circle.
( here I need more clarity/understanding too, please)

* the horse being upright - not leaning in, meaning he will distribute the weight evenly on all four legs - so most of the time it's a question of working at having him shift the weight to the outside pair of legs - this is how sending the energy to the middle of him makes sense. And also the untracking.

PS: - both old pictures (few months ago) - that's the reason for the whip. And I believe the flag/energy should go towards the barrel of the horse to help with the bend (straightness on the circle) - I am just starting to learn this and your Woody article was what really got me started, thanks!
Zuzana
Jeannie
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Posted: Mon Dec 14th, 2015 12:04 am
Interesting discussion, I hope Dr Deb analyzes the photo for you, Zusanna, as it helps everyone to recognize crookedness vs straightness in a still photograph.
Jeannie
DrDeb
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Posted: Mon Dec 21st, 2015 10:57 am
OK, finally getting back to this thread too -- as I said, it's been a busy couple of weeks; I plead "holidays".

So where in the last posted photograph do we look to notice that the horse is being driven crooked? Notice I don't say "he's going crooked", but rather that the person doing the longeing is actually causing it.

In a trot, how do the horse's front vs. rear feet interact? Would this be the same you would have in a pace as opposed to a trot?

Of course it will also matter how much suspension the horse is generating. How much is the horse in the photograph generating? How many milliseconds do you think the horse has ALL FOUR feet clear of the ground at the same time?

Lastly, what does my repeated plea to get rid of the heavy lash have to do with this?

Answer these or think about them, and then I think we'll be closer to getting why the dark horse is being driven crooked. -- Dr. Deb

 

 

zuzana
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Posted: Mon Dec 21st, 2015 10:59 pm
oh oh there is a lot of "I don't know's" here from me!

I have been thinking and studying a lot on the things you mentioned last time, Dr Deb, and really focused my energy in noticing where the horses' attention and therefore eyes point.
What a big missing piece that was! Actually, I now have unicorns instead of horses and I make sure to notice where their horn points! :)
- and all the time when I drive the horses crooked, my too-forceful energy (compounded by the whip) is forcing them to sort of shut down and focus outside of the circle - away from me...

Front/ hind foot interaction on the same side: the front foot (diagonal) has to leave the ground before the hind foot on the same side lands if the horse is taking long strides - therefore suspension in the trot. In a pace, I suppose this doesn't have to happen as the front foot is reaching forward at the same time as the hind on that side.

The black horse in that photo has very little suspension.

I attach a more recent photo of the gray, in hopes I am on the right track.

Thank you Dr Deb!

Attachment: 10- 12.jpg


Redmare
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Posted: Tue Dec 22nd, 2015 06:57 am
I hope it's OK for me to add my own observations/answers to Dr. Deb's questions.

In the picture of the black horse especially, it appears as if he is weighting the inside shoulder too heavily. The inside hind is almost (if not definitely) planted and it does not appear that the inside fore has left the ground yet (or is just barely beginning to be lifted), so the inside hind is tracking to the right of the inside fore instead of following its path. I would thus venture to guess that, since the whip is being used the drive the horse's hind, instead of the driving force being aimed at the heart girth, that the horse is being pushed onto his forehand in order to comply with the "more forward" demand from the whip.

When it comes to feet interacting at the trot, since it is a diagonal gait, the left fore and right hind need to move in tandem, same with the right fore and left hind. The pace is lateral, so the left pair of legs and right pair of legs move together, respectively. In the pace, you don't need to worry about feet "interacting", because it is lateral movement. With diagonal movement, there is really four "beats", two with leg contact and two beats of suspension.
The black horse shows almost no suspension, I believe because he is having to rush onto his forehand which is why he is late with the inside fore. So I think the plea to drop the whip goes back to the fact that the horse is being pushed off balance, and is doing so because of where the excessive drive is being incorrectly directed.
DrDeb
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Posted: Thu Jan 28th, 2016 03:04 am
There will be -- problem is I'm on research sabbatical this month and just plain have not had a moment. I promise to get back on this soon -- next couple of days, if I can plead with everybody to continue waiting patiently. Sorry! It really isn't because I've lost interest! -- Dr. Deb
Jeannie
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Posted: Wed Sep 5th, 2018 05:31 pm
A further discussion of this thread would compliment the current long and low thread.
JTB
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Posted: Fri Sep 7th, 2018 09:05 am
Great find Jeannie. :-)
Jeannie
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Posted: Sat Sep 8th, 2018 12:28 am
JTB, yes, some good information and photos on both threads.
As an experiment I tried arching my back by using my stomach muscles and bringing my hips forward while on my hands and knees, and then moving forward using diagonals. The only comfortable way to carry my head and neck was to just let my head relax and hang down while lifting the back of my neck up. Alternately, if I hollowed my back I had to also hollow my neck and hold my head up to move forward comfortably.
This gave me some insight into how a horse must feel if it is tense from being hustled forward, and then has to move in an unnatural way to comply with a person's directions.

Jeannie



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