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When is it time to give up on my horse?
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rachel
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 Posted: Thu Apr 19th, 2012 01:11 am
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I thought it was a standard measuring spoon! Now I am starting to panic.

Quoted; Start with 1 tsp (5g) per feed for a few days, then increase it slowly if there is no deterioration in his stool consistency. I used MgO at high dose (200g/day) for years before discovering MgCl, with very good results.

Salt was suggested to start at a half a spoon a day and build up to between 2-4 tablespoons a day. I just did a full measure in the dark this morning.



Pauline Moore
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 Posted: Thu Apr 19th, 2012 01:24 am
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Hi Rachel & Dr Deb

Magnesium oxide is approximately 60% elemental magnesium, so 1 (5g) teaspoon of MgO will provide approx 3 grams of elemental magnesium. However, MgO is very poorly absorbed, most sources suggest only 4% is actually available for uptake into cells and even that depends on ideal digestive conditions such as sufficient stomach acid. Four percent of 3 grams = 120mg of elemental magnesium available to the horse from that 1 teaspoon of MgO.

This is a tiny amount (even for a human), but is a good starting point for a horse with pre-existing digestive problems. Our priority is to make sure we do not make anything worse for your horse so I am suggesting more caution with both the magnesium and the salt than I would usually. For horses with normal manure I would suggest starting with 1 tablespoon of MgO.

As mentioned briefly in an earlier post, one of my own horses needed over 200 grams of MgO per day to fix his feet which equates to nearly 5000mg of supplemental elemental magnesium per day as a permanent part of his diet. All of the inorganic forms of magnesium need to be fed in much higher amounts than the organic forms such as when bound to an amino acid, eg magnesium citrate. The difference is not so much the overall magnesium content as its absorbability.

One other point I don't think I mentioned previously is that for most horses, dividing the daily magnesium amount over 2 or more small feeds will usually produce better results than giving it all in one feed. Even if you could just mix some MgO into a handful of copra to give him at other times of the day would be helpful, especially until we can establish if this approach is showing any signs of working.

Everything else is sounding very good.

Best wishes
Pauline

DrDeb
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 Posted: Thu Apr 19th, 2012 05:04 am
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Ahh, OK, my confusion stems from the fact that what I have been using with my own horse is an organically-bound form, which indeed is fed in much smaller amounts.

Rachel, no need to panic either way -- just do as Pauline suggests; she is the expert in this area, and I'm learning about it too, just like you. -- Dr. Deb

rachel
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 Posted: Thu Apr 19th, 2012 05:33 am
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 lucky I am wearing brown triple strength corderouy undies.

Dorinda
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 Posted: Sun May 6th, 2012 12:31 pm
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Hi Rachel

Have you had a chance to go and see Pauline?  You will be amazed at her wealth of knowledge.

I have had my horse Maggie on MgCl now for about 1 year and along with appropriate stretches and riden excercises she has started to really come along. We still have along way to go but it is exciting, as a year ago I was at a loss as to how I was going to help her both physically and mentally. 

You have done so much for your horse that he certainly will benefit from trying the MgCl.

Lets us know how you go.

Cheers

Dorinda

Roger Ward
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 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 01:13 pm
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where do you get the magnesium chloride? Seems like this would be a better way so suppliment than magnesium oxide, since chloride is lost in sweet. What was your rational for using the cloride, rather than the oxide or sulfate?

Roger Ward

DrDeb
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 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 06:56 pm
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Roger -- what do you mean, "lost in sweet"?

The rationale for using chloride is that the chloride ion is better for the horse than the oxide, and way WAY better than some of the more commonly available "organic" forms, i.e. citrate or aspartate, which are actually dangerous not only to horses but to all mammals.

The downside of chloride is that the flavor is bitter so that few horses will readily eat it. You have to mix it with something sweet -- we have one friend who feeds it in bread-rolls because her horse likes bread. To get it into most other horses, you would probably need to mix it with molasses or honey -- but if you have an IR horse this might not be good, depending upon how much sugary stuff he can tolerate, if any. This is therefore why people feed the oxide and aspartate forms -- they are essentially tasteless. As I said, oxide is OK; aspartate should be avoided.

For human self-administration, transdermal is a pleasant way to uptake MgCl. The place where Pauline gets her supply is http://www.ancientminerals.com and you buy the bath flakes. Do not mix according to their directions, which are aimed at getting the consumer to buy as much of the stuff as possible. They tell you to mix several cups into a 5-gallon bucket; what you actually do is put in 4 tbsp. Have the water at about 100 to 110 degrees -- right warm, but not boiling hot -- and pour it out into a deep pan and have yourself a little footbath for a half-hour while you sit and read a book. This will get more Mg into your bloodstream than you can absorb by taking a daily MgOxide pill, and has the advantage of bypassing the digestive system -- it goes straight into the bloodstream, and therefore can be immediately used by your body.

Pauline tells me that she has not, unfortunately, found a practicable way to administer MgCl trans-dermally to horses, but feeding it is practicable as outlined above and via Pauline's previous posts in this thread. -- Dr. Deb

 

Roger Ward
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 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2012 08:18 am
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I have read that more chloride ions are lost per unit of sweat than sodium ions. So providing salt to a working horse will make up the chloride, but will result in a surplus of sodium. Potassium chloride is often used in electrolyte recipes, but magnesium chloride could also be worked in to the recipe. In addition, the ionic chemical bond is not as strong as the valence bond on MgO. That sounds like something that would make the magnesium from MgCl more bio-available.

Where can MgCl be purchased?

Roger Ward

Pauline Moore
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 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2012 12:40 pm
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Hi Roger

I don't have a conclusive explanation for why MgCl has produced results far in excess of MgO or other forms of magnesium I have tried over the years. It could be simply the superior bioavailability and compatibility with our own body fluids, or could also involve the action of the naturally occurring trace minerals also present, or some other unknown function.
Wherever the truth might lie, I can vouch for MgCl having made quite dramatic changes in the majority of horses I've seen or received reports about. I've used it for my own horses for more than 18 months and find I no longer need to supplement with any commercial vitamin/mineral products. My old Cushings horse has never looked better and now has strong, sound feet that have not deteriorated in any way through the past two wetter-than-normal summers (despite his history of laminitis and weak feet).

Dr Deb has already given you a link to an online source for the Ancient Minerals brand of MgCl which is distributed internationally; it is mined from the salt deposits of the ancient Zechstein sea located below Europe. For those of us in Australia, we can access a similar product from pristine remnant seas high up on the Tibetan Plateau; this is available from http://www.ElektraLife.com.

MgCl is commonly used for industrial applications so care should be taken to find a Food Grade source that is certified as free from heavy metal contamination. Industrial or Technical Grades are often produced from coastal ocean water that is contaminated by industrial pollutants. I have seen MgCl that is sold and approved for livestock use, but the accompanying analysis shows a considerable lead, cadmium and arsenic load; even worse is that mercury, the most likely contaminant, is not listed at all.

Best wishes
Pauline

Roger Ward
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 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2012 02:40 pm
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$33 a Kg seems like a rip off. Some one is making exorbitant profits. I am disappointed in this recommendation. Reminds me of recommendations to purchase selenium yeast from platinum performance for $21 a pound, when you can buy it in 55 lb sacks from Altech distributors for $3 a pound.

Roger Ward

DrDeb
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 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2012 04:47 pm
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Roger, rather than taking an antagonistic, contentious, and judgmental tone, why don't you supply the address and other contact information -- if you have it -- for a cheaper and/or superior product? In other words, I am asking you to figure out what your negative tone is actually all about, or what purpose it serves.

So if you know something that would benefit everyone, then tell us about it. And while you do that, you can also express thanks to Pauline for all the work she has done and all the research to bring us the excellent information and help that she provides.

Let us see how you respond. -- Dr. Deb

Delly
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 Posted: Wed May 30th, 2012 12:45 pm
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Dr. Deb you mentioned that aspartate is dangerous to horses (and mammals) - why is that? I have seen it described as the rolls royce of magnesiums. Quite worrying as I know several folk that give it to their horses.

Pauline Moore
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 Posted: Fri Jun 1st, 2012 12:58 am
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Hi Delly

For a thorough explanation of why aspartate and glutamate are so potentially dangerous, I highly recommend neurosurgeon and clinical assistant professor Russell Blaylock's book 'Excitotoxins, The Taste That Kills' (Health Press, 1997, ISBN 978-0-929173-25-2). This book is just about guaranteed to send everyone scurrying to the pantry to scrutinise package labels.

Dr Blaylock is a contributing author to medical textbooks dealing with neurological disorders such as MS. In his private practice over a couple of decades he has treated patients with Parkinson's, ALS, Alzheimers and other neurodegenerative diseases. He is convinced that aspartic acid and glutamic acid play a significant role in the development and progression of these conditions, and are especially harmful to young brains.

Glutamate is commonly used as a taste enhancer in processed foods and aspartic acid is used as a component of artificial sweeteners. Both aspartic and glutamic acids form naturally in the body as neurotransmitters, and the brain has several mechanisms to protect itself from any naturally occurring temporary excesses. When these substances are consumed regularly, the body may be unable to protect itself from the continual excess. The term 'excitotoxins' is descriptive of how these acids can destroy brain cells; the mechanism involved is that glutamate and aspartate are able to cause brain calcium channels to remain open. Calcium then floods into brain cells causing over-stimulation, literally exciting the cells to death.

Dr Blaylock's book has a lot of information about how calcium and magnesium work, including the need for adequate magnesium as an essential part of the brain's protective systems. This provided the background that enabled me to arrive at an understanding of how magnesium deficit may be involved in 'BigHead' in horses grazing oxalate pastures, and why my own horse did not get any bone loss or BigHead as briefly mentioned in the Digital Cushion thread.

Best wishes
Pauline

Last edited on Fri Jun 1st, 2012 01:04 am by Pauline Moore

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 Posted: Fri Jun 1st, 2012 07:42 pm
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yes, it is an excellent book.

You can also find a lot of his (very detailed) research papers on the internet dealing with the same and related topics.

Delly
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 Posted: Sat Jun 2nd, 2012 12:37 pm
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Pauline thank you for this valuable information - I will get hold of Dr. Blaylock's book.


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