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Draping Reins?
 Moderated by: DrDeb  
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DrDeb
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 Posted: Mon Feb 6th, 2012 06:06 pm
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Jam, anyone who has enough money and time to own a horse also has enough money and time to pay a visit and pay the fees with Harry and Josh. So you go, and stop trying to hand me any bullshit about your abilities to do that. If this is that important to you, you will find a way.

There is not much more I can do for you here until you do that. You cannot learn horsemanship, and I cannot teach it, on the Internet past a certain point. We have reached that point, so now you need to go see Josh or Harry. This is to indicate that you seriously need to get planning right now to do that. -- Dr. Deb

Jamsession
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 Posted: Mon Feb 6th, 2012 07:13 pm
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OK, Dr. Deb. One last question to bug you with: do you know of someone who is recommended by you and the folks at the Equine Studies Institute who is closer to Vermont than Harry or Josh? I know Buck will be out to Maine in September, but that is a few months out...


DrDeb
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 Posted: Mon Feb 6th, 2012 11:44 pm
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You can go see Tom Curtin in Florida. I do want you to go meet Buck and at least take copious notes, sitting there all day long, every hour of every day, for the whole duration of the clinic. However, hard though he works at it and effective though I think Buck is, he does not make provision for one-on-one work and that is what you need. Tom Curtin might have more time for that; Harry and Josh set it up that way to begin with, so that in their clinics, beginners get one on one time, while only the more experienced students go in a group ride.

You must make provision for properly educating yourself and stop floundering around trying to solve what are potentially dangerous situations on your own. Nobody can really do that, though the majority of people think that they can. Some of them get kicked and quit; some of them get kicked and turn into nurses because they then become too afraid of their horses to ride them but also lack the spine to either kill the animal or sell it. Nurses exist in emotional limbo, never getting anything effective done and yet living like the neurotics and fantasists that they actually are.

So you go find Harry or you go find Josh, and there is no getting around that you need to commit to doing that. I've done all I can for you here -- now it is entirely up to you, and you'll decide about it on the basis of how important a mastery of horsemanship actually turns out to be for you. -- Dr. Deb

Jamsession
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 Posted: Tue Feb 7th, 2012 01:31 am
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I do plan on going to Buck's clinic in Maine in September.

In the meantime, while I am setting up to go out and spend time with Josh or Harry, what would be the best thing to do with my mare? I apologize if it sounds like I'm being totally thickheaded, I don't intend to, but I have seen enough nurse-y horsewomen in the barns I've worked at and I don't ever want to be that. I guess you could say I've seen the light and now there's no way I can go back to not seeing it.

Indy
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 Posted: Tue Feb 7th, 2012 02:00 am
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Jamession,
Check out 7 Springs Farm in NJ. They host several of the recommended clinicians. It is a beautiful farm and the people are always super nice and helpful. I didn't go to many clinics last year as I was focusing on driving more then riding, but this year I plan to go to a few clinics at 7 Springs. You can choose to ride in the clinics or audit. I pack food and sleep in my trailer in order to save money. I probably wouldn't have gone the first time had it not been for the encouragement I received on this forum. If you have any questions, let me know.
Clara

DrDeb
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 Posted: Tue Feb 7th, 2012 02:05 am
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Good idea, Indy, and I hope Jam follows up on that and Buck's clinic in Maine.

Meanwhile, Jam, I've already answered your last question: just leave the horse alone. It never hurt any horse to not get ridden. And if this accellerates your urgency to go find Harry or Josh -- in addition to the others -- well then, all to the good. -- Dr. Deb

Blueskidoo
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 Posted: Tue Feb 7th, 2012 04:21 am
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Harry is in TN part of May &June, at Mendin Fences.  http://www.mendinfencesfarm.com  The facility is wonderful and the owners are a treat.

Jamsession
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 Posted: Tue Feb 7th, 2012 01:07 pm
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Thank you, guys, I will look into both of those suggestions.

Katherine
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 Posted: Tue Feb 7th, 2012 09:40 pm
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Nuno Oliveira was mentioned way back in this thread, but it may be worth returning to the original "draping reins" theme. I just wanted to mention a book that has lots of excellent photos of Nuno riding schooling sessions, lunging, and working in hand, and you will see draping reins to your heart's content. The base of the neck is clearly raised in his horses and there is no ugly backwards traction on the bit.

"The Truth in the Teaching of Nuno Oliveira" by Eleanor Russell is the book. Published in 2001. No idea if it's still available.

I must admit I haven't read a single word of the book - in the 10 years I've had it all I've done is look at the photos... I think the text is a series of quotes from Nuno, translated by the author, so whether the true meaning came through translation I can't make comment on.

DrDeb
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 Posted: Wed Feb 8th, 2012 12:41 am
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Katherine, this is a good suggestion. People can also look for three other books featuring Nuno Oliveira:

"Classical Principles of the Art of Training Horses" and Jean Sauvat's "Equestrian Sketches" volume that features Nuno (there was another Sauvat volume that features a Nuno-imitator, a huge ego who will go nameless here -- please don't bother with that one).

Both of these books are quite difficult to find, as having been printed in very short run originally. The "Equestrian sketches" is the better of the two in terms of not only having wonderfully evocative images -- drawings that are actually better than photographs, and that's a real rarity -- but also parallel text in French written by Oliveira himself and then also well translated into English.

The other Oliveira book somebody will have to remind me of the title of -- I use it much less than these two -- yet it is the one with the red and green cover, which is quite commonly available. I use it much less because the translation from French sucks. If anyone knows where to get this book in the original French, I would LOVE to have a copy. The "Classical Principles" volume is a better English translation, but I'd still like to have that one also in the original French. The reason for this is that I believe that most of the women who helped Nuno with translations were not, themselves, of anything like the caliber of Nuno himself. They were admirers and students; but they did not really understand what the master meant, oftentimes; and sometimes, their French wasn't all that hot, either.

The same may be said for the volume you mention -- I too use the pictures in Nuno's books before anything else, because the words are somewhat to considerably unreliable. This is an ongoing problem with all equestrian works written by master-horsemen in any language; quite a bit tends to get lost in the translation, but pictures, like music, are universally understandable, at least to those with enough experience to realize what they are looking at. -- Dr. Deb

 

CarolineTwoPonies
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 Posted: Wed Feb 8th, 2012 06:30 am
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Amazon France has a good selection. They do deliver for the most part though there are exceptions amongst the used book sales people. There are a couple of books with various degrees of green and red covers. Are you thinking of the 30 years of correspondence between Michel Henriquet and Nuno Oliveira? Hope this helps.

http://www.amazon.fr/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85Z%C3%95%C3%91&url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=nuno+oliveira+&x=11&y=20

DrDeb
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 Posted: Wed Feb 8th, 2012 05:09 pm
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No, it was "Reflections on Equestrian Art." That's the most commonly available Nuno title, and I see from having just looked it up that it's available at Amazon.com. Thanks for the reminder that there's a French Amazon.com too -- when I get some time, I'll have to cruise over there! -- Dr. Deb

Jeannie
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 Posted: Sun Feb 12th, 2012 09:48 pm
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Jam, while you are waiting to see Buck and/or Harry, Tom Moates is a student of Harry's, and has written a few books from the perspective of a novice with an earnest interest in getting better with horses. " A Horse's Thought" and " Between the Reins" are available through Eclectic Horseman, and along the same lines of the above posts, in addition to the text, he has photos of both himself and Harry working and being around horses. You will learn a lot by looking at those photos, and noticing the differences between the two horseman in their body language and general confidence level around horses, the very things that horses notice.

  Best wishes with your journey, Jeannie

DrDeb
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 Posted: Mon Feb 13th, 2012 04:01 am
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Jeannie, your post brings up in a kind of oblique way something very important: that the 'earnest horse owner' who will wind up succeeding is none other than the person who is able to observe in detail, as horses themselves observe; but also, as the 'earnest student' observes who wishes to become a professional scientist. Our elderly teacher talked very often about 'observe....remember....compare'.

He did not himself know, I believe, that this same mantra of 'observe, remember, and compare' was first taught by Galileo.

No one can learn to 'read' the body language of horses who does not devote himself or herself to first observing many, many horses doing many, many things. You have to be able to notice it before you can interpret it; then finally you also learn to interpret it. -- Dr. Deb

Solar
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 Posted: Mon Feb 13th, 2012 04:37 am
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I believe it was Aldo Leopold who told of an ordinary elderly lady who had studied for many years, house sparrows that came to her feeder. She observed the details of their lives so well that scientists would consult her on sparrow behavior etc. He referred to her as being a "citizen scientist". I think of this lady often when I am studying my horses.


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