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Movie About Buck Brannaman
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hurkusdurkus
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 Posted: Thu Oct 20th, 2011 08:51 pm
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Buck Brannaman came to my hometown last summer. Two other clinics/shows from fellows who have a TV show also came to town that summer.
There was not a huge crowd of auditors at the Buck clinic. It was held at a 'normal' boarding facility with a good arena and a big lawn and lots of parking. Most days, there were 30 or 40 people watching and taking notes from the sidelines, and asking questions when they had one.
The other clinic/show/entertainment enterprises rented the county fairgrounds, and were held in an indoor arena with seating for 3,000 or thereabouts, and while I don't know how many people showed up, I know that these enterprises did need the seating and fairgrounds parking since lots of folks came to see the 'show'.

My husband asked me why on earth, since Buck seems to be so talented, there were not so many spectators and auditors that Buck would have needed to rent the fairgrounds, too.

My answer was that, if you go to a Buck clinic (in the manner that the folks who are truly learning Buck's horsemanship methods go to the clinic), you are going in order to face things about yourself that you probably don't like, and you are going to have to work to change.  That is just not NEARLY as palatable as going to a big 'horse whisperer' show, getting the fellow's autograph on a DVD, buying a Special Magic Halter and thinking you now know something special about How To Train A Horse.

--Becca

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 Posted: Thu Oct 20th, 2011 09:44 pm
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My email happens to be JGPIGGER not Pigger please be clear in your communications. Thank you for the information regarding the forum.

May I ask, what is your personal criteria for recommending the list of people that you recommend on your forum? How do you diffentiate who's up to your standard and isn't? I have often wondered?

Again, not being arugumentive but wanting clearer information.

DrDeb
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 Posted: Thu Oct 20th, 2011 10:29 pm
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Yes, Becca: exactly. And not only do individuals sometimes have to feel the pain and make the changes, the horse industry as a whole is in dire need of this. Hence Buck's half-joking but pointed epithets concerning brainless dressage riders or brainless competition ropers. Ray Hunt expressed the same criticisms, in equally colorful language. Sometimes colorful or pointed expressions are the only thing that are going to penetrate: as I mentioned in the 'bitting' thread about just about having to (verbally) beat the old lady black and blue. Gentler approaches and appeals have not worked, and my concern, as it is Buck's concern and was Ray's concern, is for the welfare of the horses.

Unfortunately it is not possible to alter a horse's life for the better when the horse is not owned by us: then we have to go through the human. As it says in the Book of Genesis in the preface to the story about Noah's Ark: why God chose to destroy his initial creation was because 'he saw that the thoughts in the human heart were only wicked, all the time.' So if anyone objects to direct strong language, I refer you to that higher authority, and ask you to hang in there and receive what is due. Ray used to say, "if it doesn't apply to you, then I wasn't talking to you anyway. And if it does, then you need it and deserve it."

As to criteria for who gets my recommendation, JGPigger, the first thing to realize is that it is me sticking my own neck out when I put somebody on the 'approved' list. As I am sure you would do yourself, I have vetted pretty closely everybody on that list. To do this, I have to know the clinician and I have to have seen their work first-hand. So, you should also realize that there are some people out there, even among those who knew Ray or our elderly teacher well, whom I have not met or not seen first-hand and therefore cannot (yet) recommend. Also, it works the other way: there have sometimes been people who I would gladly have recommended who do not want me to feature them. Generally these have been folks who don't incline toward public teaching, and who, though their work is excellent, are content and fulfilled simply working with their own horses.

Lastly, you may also note that there are some names on my recommended list who never knew Ray or our elderly teacher. They have, however, in most cases shown me that they understand what was being taught and their own philosophies are compatible. I make some effort to list dressage-style trainers who I think can help formerly "exclusively dressage" or "exclusively English" or "exclusively Pony Club" style riders cross the bridge to training their horses correctly. Premier among these is Mike Schaffer.

Beyond all of this, the basics that the person I recommend must show are:

(1) Their primary concern is with the welfare and well-being of the horse -- not the person.

(2) They are good teachers, so that they can reach the horse through the person. This aspect involves clarity, organization, dedication, timeliness, etc.

(3) They are skillful riders and know how to, and have, both started colts and finished horses. It does not matter to me in what style the horse is finished.

(4) Their business orientation is on service, not money. They must be dead honest and perfectly willing to give somebody's money back if the person is not satisfied. I don't want to catch them grumbling about low turnouts; their attitude must be that they would have been there at that farm or at that fairgrounds working those horses, or some horses, no matter if nobody had showed up.

(5) Advertisement must be either by word-of-mouth (the primary channel), or else by one or a few announcements in the relevant magazines -- the purpose being merely that people may be able to know when and where events would be held so that they can plan ahead. In other words, "self aggrandizement" does not come into it. This also applies to advertisements about films, books, or other media that the clinician may have produced. Where these are in partnership with a producer or publishing company, those people have invested money and they have a right to recoup their investment, and this is normally done through paid advertising. Nonetheless, there is a way to do this which puts the emphasis on the content, not on the person (even where the content is autobiographical, as in Buck's film "Buck").

(6) There shall be no intimation that any particular item, sold by the teacher, is necessary or required for the student to succeed with their horse or to advance within the school. Uniform dress, or dress that imitates that favored by the teacher, is discouraged. Adulation of the teacher, or excessive adherence to the person or mannerisms of the teacher, is strictly discouraged, while independent thinking, creative/appropriate application of learned principles, and the acceptance of personal responsibility for all outcomes are encouraged.

(7) There is no business structure which involves a pyramid scheme or franchises. There are no named apprenticeships, and there is no enfranchisement other than that which may incidentally arise, i.e. the teacher suggesting a particular cowboy who could ride the lady's horse in the colt class, or suggesting a local person (usually another student) with whom the lady can work after the clinic is over.

(8) Above everything else, the recommended person must operate out of charity. "Charity" does not mean "being nice all the time". It means being HONEST all the time, and being willing to go the extra mile -- whether that involves an extra demonstration, an extra working hour, or being willing to give a blind or recalcitrant student the verbal whipping they deserve (as gently as possible). That these actions ARE charity is lost on some people, for example apparently on you, JGPigger -- but you are hardly alone in this. As I have said many other times, quoting C.S. Lewis: "Sometimes the face of charity looks just like fierceness." It is the same face we bring to the horse, when he also needs it, and it has nothing at all to do with anger. The teacher is not mad at the student.

Buck passes with me, just as Ray did, and in much the same manner, because whatever he says is intended to be helpful to the student; and like St. Paul, he never quits or gives up in the effort to bring to the student those things that the student needs to know or change or do in order to help instead of hurt their horse.

You know, there is a woman I know at one of the local barns here, who has approached me angrily, asking "so WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE between what you teach" -- vs. what is taught by the [well self-advertised individual who is not named in this Forum] in whose school she has been laboring to become certified at "second level".

And my answer to her was this: "I'll be very happy to show you the difference, but first you will have to pledge to become my student."

And her reply was: "I wouldn't be your student and I wouldn't read any of your stupid books if they were the last thing on Earth."

And I replied to that by saying, "In that case I cannot show you what the difference is." Note that it is not that I WOULD not; for very charity indeed, I would, even in the face of this lady's ongoing hostility and unpleasantness; but I CANNOT, because the lady herself excludes the possibility of it by her own attitude. -- Dr. Deb

 

JTB
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 Posted: Fri Oct 21st, 2011 11:48 pm
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I have recently come across a quote from Ray Hunt, it was from an article in a magazine and he was talking about Tom Dorrance. Ray had said, 'You've got to give something you never gave, to get something you never had', Had you heard Ray say that before, Dr Deb? I can't fathom what he means but I hope one day I might. Cheers Judy

AdamTill
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 Posted: Fri Oct 21st, 2011 11:53 pm
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In a nutshell, you can't expect your horse to change if you don't do so first...

or

...t's not the horse's fault.

Also forgot my favorite thought from Einstein, who basically said that insanity can be defined as repeatedly doing the same thing but expecting different results.

Last edited on Fri Oct 21st, 2011 11:57 pm by AdamTill

DrDeb
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 Posted: Sat Oct 22nd, 2011 03:59 am
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Yes, JTB, that's one of Ray's most famous sayings. I get quite a lot of meaning out of 'you've got to give what you never gave in order to get what you never had.'

One example would be the first time an inexperienced rider goes out on a trailride. They might have been taking arena lessons on a school horse for some time before that, and they get to the point where their teacher tells them that it's time to take the horse outside of the arena and tackle a little trail in a little, quiet woods, that might have a little stream to cross and some little hills to go up and down.

Now, I have been that student-rider myself long ago, and at a later period I have also been the teacher taking the student out on their first trailride. And so I know how I felt when I was the student: sheer terror. I still remember the first time I had to ride a horse downhill -- not a very big hill, mind you -- and at a walk, not at any speed at all. It seemed to me that I was sitting way WAY up high, like at the top peak of a roller-coaster, and looking down over the front end of the horse I could not see where the horse's feet were, I could not see the trail really at all well, so that it was like walking on the girders of a skyscraper in the dark; and this bothered me and frightened me.

But then there came a change. I thought: "well, the horse doesn't want to fall down, either. He does not want to tumble down this trail by falling over his nose, even though that's the way it seems to ME". And so in that moment I GAVE something that I never had given before: I gave the horse CREDIT for being able to carry himself, and me, down that hill. You could also say that there was a movement inside me away from fear and toward trust. So I gave something I had never before had occasion or need to give -- that level of crediting the animal or that level of trust, which are not required when riding in the flat, enclosed arena. And because I gave something I had never before given, I GOT something I had never had before: the pleasure of that first trailride, which in that same instant transformed from scary, stressful, and sickening to totally Indiana Jones looking for adventure and discovery in an enchanted woodland. And not only did I get that on that first trailride, I got it on every subsequent trailride, and still continue to get it today.

So now you and others can share similar stories if you like, because I am sure there are thousands of examples of how people have lived out this very deep saying of Ray's. -- Dr. Deb

JTB
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 Posted: Sat Oct 22nd, 2011 08:06 am
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Got it! Thank you so much, Dr Deb and Adam, for taking the time to reply, I can see now how important this is. Yes there are a heap of times this has come to the fore for me. Not just as the beginner, but with each new 'awakening'. Cheers Judy

Last edited on Sat Oct 22nd, 2011 08:13 am by JTB

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 Posted: Sat Oct 22nd, 2011 04:23 pm
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When I went to my first Josh Nichol clinic with my horse, I had been studying with Dr. Deb for about a year prior. I had read just about every subject on this forum, asked some questions (to which I thought I understood the answers at the time), read books from Dr. Deb, Ray Hunt, Tom Dorrance, Bill Dorrance, etc. Needless to say, I had a vision in my head of this new (to me) horsemanship. So I was very excited to learn.

When I went, I didn't really have any specific problems with my horse. Meaning that my horse did not try to kick, buck, or bolt and I thought we got along pretty well. So I was expecting to be taught this and that "method" of a different way to get the same things done that we were already doing. Within about 10 minutes, I was told that my horse was essentially swallowed within himself. When he was asked something, he would just kind of gloss over and do it but wasn't really there. I had the realization that I was doing lots of things wrong for my horse and he was in trouble because of me.

So, I learned alot at that clinic and it really opened my eyes and was the start of changing my life. I brought home a totally different horse. He was much more feeling and showing me his feelings. He finally was able to start expressing himself to me because of the changes in me.

I had started to give something I never gave to get something I never had.

4 years later and about 10 Josh clinics (with and without horse), I am still learning. We have come a long way but still not even halfway there, if I ever get "there". (Thanks for reminding me of this Adam, our talk has helped me out very much).

Tammy

Last edited on Sat Oct 22nd, 2011 04:26 pm by Tammy 2

Tammy 2
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 Posted: Sat Oct 22nd, 2011 04:40 pm
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I got the Buck DVD and absolutely love it. I see alot of Ray in him which is so great to see now that Ray is gone.

I am looking forward to seeing Buck again here next month. So much more to learn !

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 Posted: Sun Oct 23rd, 2011 06:20 am
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With my aged mare I am having just a great time. I've been riding with Harry for five or six years now. For the last two years in clinics, I've used the horses of friends because of various reasons, mostly tied to transportation. However, I am able to take what I learn home to my grey mare and the last few years have been nothing but happiness.

Today, for instance. After a short warm-up in the arena, just to get our minds together, we ventured out. Along the highway, past a power-line station (which used to be a great source of worry for her), down an embankment back to my barn's trail full of branches and whatnot, a large brave doe standing giving us some "attitude", down into woods bordered by a raised train platform (coal, today), a flock of turkeys (put the "birdie" on them), a dog we've never seen before (friendly Lab, another "birdie" moment, as all of these have been), and working specifically on straightness the whole way. Did I mention we were solo? :)

A very monumental day of many this year. I am thankful to my instructor and to Harry for these years of guidance and advice, thankful to my horse for being such a good sport, and thankful to my growing ability to let go of my ego as I'm able.


ilam
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 Posted: Wed Oct 26th, 2011 06:11 pm
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And I thought I had read all that was available to read from Ray - or maybe I missed it? This sure is a very profound one.

Earlier this year I re-read Ray's book, and within the first paragraph the coin finally dropped. So, I realized what I had been doing and perceiving so wrongly all these years, even thought I thought I did it right..... I actually thought that we were doing pretty well, I also had no major issues, but there just was that something that I could not get to and that wall I kept hitting the moment I started riding in my first clinic. That wall was the reason I re-read all the materials, looking for what I was missing.

So, when I realized what I was missing I had to do some serious thinking on how I was going to make changes, and how I needed to change my thinking and hence my actions, and it was a bit awkward at first. My horse was so used to me ignoring his feelings or me pushing him through them, he was quite confused for a while when I changed, I suspect he didn't believe me at first. I'd get off of him and look him in the eye, did a little ground 'work', hung out with him when he was troubled, trying to figure out what to do and how I could help him. Then one trip the whole issue really bubbled to the surface, and for 3 days we worked through it, with the help of a friend to calm me down and walk/talk me through my frustrations. We made a little progress on the third day.

Then with consistency the changes started to happen. Not sure how much of it is visible by an outside observer, probably only to one in the know, but I am starting to get what I never got before on every ride. Most of the "drag" is gone, and there is yet another level of lightness that I discovered, and other things (the 'slow corner' thread was a huge break-though). Overall, I started back way at the beginning, doing everything over, and since he had had a lot of training already, progress actually went pretty fast, even with rides only on weekends.

Isabel

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 Posted: Wed Oct 26th, 2011 07:12 pm
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The more time I spend at this, the more the phrase that Tom and Ray preached rings true.

That phrase being, "The last thing you learn will be the first thing you needed to know".

ilam
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 Posted: Wed Oct 26th, 2011 07:34 pm
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Ain't that the truth! But that is just how life seems to work, sort of backwards LOL  All we can ever do is do the best we can, in the way we know how at the time, and then do better when we know better.

Isabel

Alex
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 Posted: Sun Oct 30th, 2011 10:48 am
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Buck is showing in Canberra next Sunday 6th November at 16:15!

http://www.canberrafilmfestival.com.au/2011/09/buck/

 

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 Posted: Sat Nov 5th, 2011 06:41 am
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I saw the movie at the theatre and on dvd. Buck has a lot of thoughtful ideas, however, I have a problem with the way he handled the stallion. I don't believe that he was a wild mean horse because of oxygen deprived and bottle fed. Those are excuses. He was out with 17 other stud colts since he was about 3 months of age, with no handling. The woman was definitely very stupid to do that. But back at the Buck clinic. When Buck saw the situation, he should have said. Geld him, and come back another time.  Secondly, Buck should have known to go slow with this horse and not roped his hind foot, throw a  saddle on him and had that man ride around the arena like some bucking bronco show. Not good.
One huge thing that I noticed in the orig movie, was that when Buck was loading the colt in the trailer, there was a point where the colt stopped, and licked and chewed. That was one thing that REALLY stood out, and for some reason the dvd did not have that in there... I wonder why?


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