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Digital Cushion
 Moderated by: DrDeb  
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Dorothy
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Joined: Fri Jan 15th, 2010
Location: Bath, Somerset, United Kingdom
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 Posted: Mon May 28th, 2012 08:23 am
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What fascinating information, Pauline, thank you!

Jenna
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Joined: Tue May 22nd, 2012
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
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 Posted: Tue May 29th, 2012 05:48 am
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Pauline,
Really great research in nutrition! If you interested in collecting further data I have a horse who I'd like to do a little investigating with.
I wanted to evaluate his conformation just to see what ideas I could come up with so I took some pictures of him this week. I'll post them after this post. This horse has a short, choppy stride and according to his owner has never been sound as long has she's had him (5+years). I don't know how old he is but I can find out.
When I watch him on the lunge line he just looks off and sort of ouchy all over. He actually does seem to move more freely at a canter than a trot.
There is just something weird about his front feet to me when he moves. I don't know really what it is,but his feet look seriously broken backed. I now think it might be that he's just trying to get his knees up quickly to keep his weight off his front feet, but I mentioned to the other that I thought it looked like he needed to build up the back of his hoof or something so that the P123 bones would be more in alignment, looks like something is wrong with the breakover of the toe? I was just thinking about Dr. Debs conformation books and the tension along the digital flexors. When I look at him standing still I think that I may have been deceived by swelling at the coronary band.
This is the 2nd time I had to write this because I accidentally erased my first post so I think that's enough info for now. I would like to take DC measurements if you are still interested in collecting data. I can take more pics too. It was very interesting to read your experiment and I'm glad for the outcome for Hopper and Rory! I'd love to see if it can help this horse become more rideable too.
--Jenna

Jenna
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Joined: Tue May 22nd, 2012
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
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 Posted: Tue May 29th, 2012 06:16 am
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Sorry about the duplicate pictures, this should be better quality of the first, but if it's not I'll stop filling up this thread with useless pictures.

Attachment: IMG_0238.jpg (Downloaded 818 times)

DrDeb
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Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
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 Posted: Tue May 29th, 2012 08:32 am
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Jenna, what you're trying to do here is commendable but you need lots more experience. What experience does is it gives perspective, so that when we use adjectives such as "swollen coronary bands", for example, you have some kind of scale of comparison to tell you how much "swelling" might be significant.

Or, when you say "the hoofs are broken back" (i.e. the angle is steep), "steep" is an another adjective of comparison. How "steep" is "steep"? Experience tells this. The horse you present has fairly ordinary feet and is reasonably well trimmed.

He does stand under himself in front. But one photo a lifestyle doth not make. See if next time you can get a friend to help you by holding the lead rope as you take the photos. Deliberately ask the animal to stand square. If he'll stand square at your bidding, he's probably not in a great deal of trouble.

Also, Jenna, did you really pay attention to the more important parts of Pauline's posts? What was it that told Pauline that Rory and Hopper might need a change in diet? It was their stiffness when moving....their cranky behavior....hypersensitivity....aggressiveness. Is your old gray there giving you any of these signs? Not by the look in his eye, I'll warrant.

It was also that their feet were falling apart....crummy hoof capsule quality....shallow digital cushion depth....flat-footed with no doming to the sole. The horse you present, Jenna, so far as we can see has excellent-quality feet.

And Jenna -- did you investigate your water pH? Do you know exactly how many tbsp. of salt this horse ingests each day, on average? Are you or is his owner feeding him magnesium, chromium, or other special salts, and if so how much? Have you thought about why knowing these things (and being able to report them to us) would be important?

There's one other thing, too, dear. The horse is not yours, and you do not tell us that the owner has given you permission to discuss her property in public. It's not only impolite to jump in and try to do that -- it's forbidden here. So you go check with the owner and see if she really wants your advice, or ours.

I'm happy to have you read here as a student, and I'll be happy to have you post photos of your OWN horses or of any that belong to other people that you can assure us that you have permission to post and talk about. If you want to ask a question about these horses, please start a new thread. But before you do that, do make sure that you have a specific question or problem with the animal you present. Then you can post your photo, ask the question, and the discussion will be fruitful instead of "oh, what Pauline did is so cool". Yes, we know it's cool! But it's primarily up here to stand as an example for you to take home, think about, and then APPLY AT HOME to your own horses. Once you've done that, if you then have questions, go ahead and post. -- Dr. Deb

Delly
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 Posted: Wed May 30th, 2012 01:05 pm
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Hello Pauline - I have found a supplier of Mag chloride flakes here in NZ. They state that they are the NZ distributors for ancient minerals with the product coming from the Zechstein seabed. Would this be one to puchase? Many thanks for your valuable information.

Pauline Moore
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 Posted: Wed May 30th, 2012 11:55 pm
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Hi Delly

Yes, that brand is pure as its source was formed and subsequently buried millions of years before humans had the chance to cause industrial pollution. The link below gives an interesting account of how the Zechstein sea may have been involved in the mass extinctions at the end of the Permian period.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090330102659.htm

There may be other sources of a similarly pure and less expensive product in NZ; I haven't yet found any but I'd be interested to know if you find something else.

If this product works for your horse, it may be possible to buy at a better price from the same supplier I use as buying in bulk brings the price down to less than a third of the advertised retail price. Most horseowners here in Australia who use this type of magnesium get together to form a buying group so they can get the best price. This may be possible in NZ if you can share with others. If this is of interest, please contact me privately so I can give you details. I'm sure Dr Deb doesn't want her website turning into a magnesium buying market!

Best wishes
Pauline

Jenna
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Joined: Tue May 22nd, 2012
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
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 Posted: Thu May 31st, 2012 04:41 am
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Dr. Deb, I don't know if those questions for me are hypothetical or not. I assure the forum that I have the owner's permission to discuss the gray horse. However, I'll admit I jumped the gun on it. Live and Learn--Jenna

Dorinda
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Joined: Fri May 18th, 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
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 Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2012 01:00 pm
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Hi all

Pauline has helped me a lot with my horse Maggie. And since Dr Debs clinic here is Australie 2 years ago when I asked Pauline to have a look at the way my little mare went. I discovered a whole new world. I have gone through alot to try and figure out what was causing Maggie to be grumpy/ sore in the loins. the list goes on. But to cut a long story short I have had her on MgCl for nearly one & half years now and the differnce is amazing in her muscles. I have got a good trimmer who is addressing all the flares and we have some sort of concavity going in the front at last. She no longer toe pints as much as she did and can take waking on gravel without winching.

Her digital cushions are still thin particulary in the hind hence my photos taken today.

RF 3.5 cm
LF 3.5 cm
RH 3.0 cm
LH 3.0 cm

With lots of undertracking, cantering, stretching she is alot more comfortable. Which she will do if I don't listen very hard to what she is saying to me or get my weight right.

My trimmer doesn't hold much hope to improve the DC in the hind but with the new diet of chromium, MgCl, ollsons salt, MSM, myco sorb, black sunflower seeds and oaten chaff we will see. These pictures will be my beginning to see if it will improve.

Have to work out how to upload the pitures. Sorry I can't understand why they won't up load. Each one is only 10-11KB



Cheers
Dorinda

Last edited on Thu Jun 7th, 2012 01:06 pm by Dorinda

Pauline Moore
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Joined: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007
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 Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2012 11:34 am
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These are Dorinda's photos:

Attachment: Maggie's DCs.png (Downloaded 596 times)

Dorinda
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Location: Canberra, Australia
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 Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2012 01:56 am
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Oh Pauline you are a whiz. Thanks heaps for getting the these up as they show very thin DC's in the hind which would help to explain tension through the back. I have bought some boots for the hind to see if that will help her to weight bear more.

Cheers
Dorinda

Beaufields
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 Posted: Wed Mar 20th, 2013 05:21 am
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Hi Delly, I was wondering if you could please advise who the supplier is in New Zealand for the Mag Chloride as I would love to purchase a pure source. Thanking you in advance. Cheers JC

Delly
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 Posted: Wed Mar 20th, 2013 12:57 pm
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Hi JC,

I purchase mine from an online pharmacy who give very good service. They are Pharmacy NZ.com (in Oamaru) Look under Magnesium Oil. It is called Ancient Minerals. After correspondence with Pauline this is the one that I went with as it is a pure source. You can buy 750g packets or 2.5 kg container. I purchase the latter as I have 2 horses and 2 ponies on it. I believe that it can also be purchased at Sydenham Pharmacy in Christchurch.

I dissolve the required amount in a little water before adding to feed.

Cheers.

Beaufields
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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2013 01:21 pm
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Hi, thanks for replying, really appreciate it:), could you please advise how much to give to a 16.1hh horse, he weighs approx 611kgs. cheers JC

Pauline Moore
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Joined: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007
Location: Crows Nest, Australia
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 Posted: Mon May 6th, 2013 01:15 am
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JC - please email me privately (address in the member's pages) so I can then send you the article I wrote about Magnesium for Horses. This includes suggestions on how to feed MgCl.

Genetics and management practices determine that every horse has different needs for magnesium so size and weight of the horse is almost irrelevant. As a rule-of-thumb I generally slowly increase the amount I feed until the signs of deficiency have disappeared. Softening of the stool is generally considered to be the first indication that the body is ingesting more magnesium than needed so I am careful to continually monitor my horses and reduce the amount I feed if I see any softening of the manure. This approach allows me to increase or decrease the amount of magnesium I feed as needed, depending on changes in pasture nutrients through the seasons, or other changes that might temporarily increase need for magnesium. Please note that no horse should be fed any supplemental minerals if kidney problems are present or suspected; a veterinarian should be consulted for advice first.

Best wishes
Pauline

JulietMacie
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Joined: Tue Jun 25th, 2013
Location: Ashfield, Massachusetts USA
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 Posted: Fri Jan 23rd, 2015 06:26 am
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Hello, I have a horse who's been toe-first-striking for some time now and am looking for some help understanding why and what I can do about it. I've had a long conversation in this forum with Dr. Deb (see the thread "toe-first striking") and am coming over to this thread to focus on deciphering the physical evidence and hopefully learning some solutions. I have several photos to post which will follow this post. Here's the data I have to report:

Digital cushion thickness:

right fore: 57mm
left fore: 51mm
right hind: 48mm
left hind: 46mm
weight approx 1150 lbs.

here's an overall photo:

Attachment: fullview_jan15.jpg (Downloaded 176 times)

Last edited on Fri Jan 23rd, 2015 06:30 am by JulietMacie


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