ESI Q and A Forums Home
 Search       Members   Calendar   Help   Home 
Search by username
Not logged in - Login | Register 

Advice for overweight riders
 Moderated by: DrDeb  
 New Topic   Reply   Print 
AuthorPost
DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3246
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Feb 25th, 2013 05:26 am
 Quote  Reply 
Dear Vitaride: What good can it possibly do to play devil's advocate? I would have appreciated a more honest and direct approach on your part. Why not just ask a straight question of me? You verge on being a total waste of my time.

As to whether any instructor can teach students to round their horses up: yes, of course; I do it all the time; it is one of the things I am in the business of doing. I have no problem doing it. What I DO have a problem with is online students who hide behind the anonymity that the screen provides, hide their identities, insult and deprecate their ponies, insult and deprecate me (the teacher), and fail to ask the simple straight question -- to receive the simple straight answer -- that might have helped YOU.

When you get ready to be more honest, Vitaride, you can write back with the first specific question as to how to improve your own attitude -- which sucks -- and your own riding -- which sounds like it sucks, too. -- Dr. Deb

vitarideapony
Guest
 

Joined: 
Location:  
Posts: 
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Feb 25th, 2013 09:45 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dr. Deb, You are quite right. I apologize. You goal is the well being of horses and that is certainly a worthy and noble goal. I reread your answer to "afatgirlafathorse" and cannot quarrel with what you said other than insistence on the number 250. I missed the "a few minutes" in how long a heavy rider can be on a horse without damage. My dressage instructor is too heavy for my 13.1 pony but she has on rare occasions ridden my pony for a few minutes because seeing is not enough. Sometimes you have to feel to understand the problem you are trying to solve. Another thing I missed and now puzzle over is your description of a weak back "narrow and rounded." I get the "narrow" but "rounded" seems like an oxymoron. If you took a cross section of a horse behind the last rib, would "rounded" mean you would see something closer to an oval versus something more elliptical or circular in a stronger back? Or am I totally not getting it? Is it rounded toward the tail?
     As to my anonymity, I am not a professional rider or instructor and never have been and never wanted to be. I've ridden off and on since my 30s, driven since my late 50s. I'm now in my late 70s, at 120 I'm ten pounds lighter than my max. I've had only a few horses/ponies over the years. I've had a lot of instruction, some so-so, some good, some outstanding, especially driving.  I now have two ponies who have access to about 3 acres and a barn and a run-in shed, virtually 24/7. One pony is in her late twenties. She came to me in her late teens. She was hunted, evented, Pony-Clubbed, trail-ridden, and even had dressage lessons (and two foals) with her previous two owners' children.  I am retired. I was an editor of mostly scholarly works, which no doubt accounts for my bad attitude.

About teaching a horse how to carry a rider -- as you say, it is not often explicitly trained. I take that to mean that it is sometimes trained but is not called that. I know quite a few instructors -- dressage, Pony Club, 4-H -- and some some who train only their own horses.  Only one I know uses the term "round up and through." I know YOU can teach YOUR students and horses to use their bodies to avoid back injury. The instructors I know can teach that to SOME riders and SOME horses but often they have to take whatever comes their way, sad to say. Sometimes they are given horses whose backs are already damaged, sometimes somewhat repairable for some useful light work and sometimes not. Some potential riders will never be acceptable riders. They usually recognize that without being told and they drop out.

About that denigrated "worthless" pony. He is worthless in a monetary sense. I would never sell him for slaughter and I couldn't in good conscious sell him to anyone who couldn't provide for the pony's needs. One thing he needs is a job. He has been ridden and driven but he's not for just anyone. He flunked "pasturemate" school so that's out.

One question for you is whether going up and down hills affects how a horse moves and if so, how  -- short term and long term?  (I know people use hill work to develop wind and stamina, but what about movement as such?) Would living in a hilly location affect a horse's movement and development?

The area in which we do not agree is whether it is ever OK to ask a horse to carry more weight than it should. I contend that there are times when the benefit to the rider outweighs the consequences to the horse. A child severely injured in a car accident showed marked improvement after only a few sessions on my aged arthritic small driving pony. Did it hurt the pony? I don't know, but if it did, it was worth it. Couldn't another pony have done the job? Yes, but she is what was available at the time of need.

My overweight friends who rode when they were thin now drive horses or ponies or mules or donkeys. A lot of us drive because it's fun and we can have a much smaller animal that is cheaper to feed and easier to groom. Driving is more comfortable and more companionable, too. I recommend it regardless of a person's weight. Just get some good instruction first.




DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3246
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2013 07:02 am
 Quote  Reply 
Your apololgy is accepted, Vitaride, and the proof of this is that I have not banned you nor blocked your access to this space.

However, I meant what I said previously: no amount of wheedling or argument or "contention" on your part is going to do the least good, for I have said already all that I intend to say on this subject. I am not interested in contention or argument at any time, but instead am interested in questions from honest, sincere students who intend to CHANGE what they are doing instead of JUSTIFY continuing in the same way.

You can also do me the favor of actually going ahead and looking through that old stack of Equus Magazine back-issues that you say you have, until you look up and find that the question you have asked in your last post has already been answered there. You can also use the Google advanced search function to look up old threads where we discuss whether and how going up and down hills affects a horse. The appropriate place for discussion of this subject, which is quite another topic than the one to which this thread is devoted, would be in that thread.

Now, Vitaride, until you show me that you have heard what I have said -- to the point that you are no longer trying to "contend" and are no longer wheedling to have me, or some other authority, put a stamp of approval on your choices -- and until you demonstrate a willingness to do your homework, my plan for you is to simply let you fade out. -- Dr. Deb

vitarideapony
Guest
 

Joined: 
Location:  
Posts: 
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2013 02:02 pm
 Quote  Reply 
I found what I was looking for elsewhere. I won't be back.

Jamsession
Member
 

Joined: Sun Dec 4th, 2011
Location:  
Posts: 67
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Mar 4th, 2013 10:50 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dr. Deb, I have an earnest question concerning horses and their weight-bearing abilities.

There's an Icelandic horse farm not too far from where I live, and I've been to a few of their events/seen some of their horses in competition. Icelandics are not big horses by any means (I guess even though they are registered as horses they are almost always 13 to 14 hands) but they are substantial, hardy little guys. However, most of the riders I have seen competing them or riding them are full-grown adults, and while they aren't necessarily overweight, we're talking at least 130-140 pounds or more plus the weight of the saddle. I would assume that the 250 lb. limit certainly does not apply here given the animal's size, yet to train these horses (or ponies/small horses in general) usually requires a knowledgeable adult rider. I've heard of the "20% Rule" when it comes to the max. any horse should carry on it's back, whether that be packing or a rider. Is this a reasonable rule, or a bunch of bologna? By that calculation, these ponies shouldn't carry more than 170 lbs. max, including tack, but based on early portions of that discussion, that's pushing it for the vast majority of pleasure horses...

Last edited on Mon Mar 4th, 2013 10:54 pm by Jamsession

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3246
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Mar 5th, 2013 02:28 am
 Quote  Reply 
Your calculation is correct, Jam: 20% of 800 lbs. is 160 lbs., and 20% of 900 lbs. is 170 lbs., and that's about the weight range we're talking about for most Icelandics.

The 20% rule is a good one, as I have already mentioned in a post above, and works very well up to the point where you hit 250 lbs., and then that's the absolute limit. In other words, 20% is the relative limit; 250 lbs. is the absolute maximum.

Jam, there are always going to be people, like Vitearide, who will insist upon "justifiable exceptions" -- especially when the exception being justified is themselves.

You therefore are invited to concern yourself with exactly the same thing that I invited her to concern herself with: what YOU do. Everything that happens to a domestic horse is 100% down to the person who has ownership/control of that horse, and your choices are your own business.

They are your own business: but if your choice violates Natural Law -- which is to say more accurately, if your choice is to fool yourself into thinking that you CAN by any means violate Natural Law -- then your horse will pay the consequences of your violation in the here-and-now, and (in my belief), you will pay the consequences in the next life. -- Dr. Deb

 


 Current time is 05:08 am
Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2   




Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez