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What exercises on the ground for collection?
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AdamTill
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 Posted: Mon Mar 1st, 2010 01:19 am
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Here's a sidepull shot. Nothing is quite snugged up properly, since this was a shot I took for Cathy Nichol back when we were seeing which size was going to fit properly. The crosstie rope is snapped to the "bit ring", or whatever the rein attachment ring is properly called.

Hope that helps.

Attachment: Sidepull.jpg (Downloaded 826 times)

Blueskidoo
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 Posted: Mon Mar 1st, 2010 03:15 am
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Take an athletic sock and pour some rice or field-corn in it (two cups or so) and tie it off at the top (or sew it closed).  You can microwave this for 2 minutes or so and then put it over your bit to warm it.  It will stay warm for quite a while.  It is also reuseable.  But don't leave it in the barn because it makes a nice snack for mice.

Indy
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 Posted: Mon Mar 1st, 2010 03:36 am
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Adam,
Thanks for the picture.

Are there 2 buckles on the chin strap? And it looks like the piece that comes down from the top ring and goes forward is stationary. What is the purpose of that piece? At a local tack shop I have seen what they call an english hackamore. It is a nose piece that you would attach to a headstall. It has the same buckle as the side pull and the two rings (one for the reins and one for the adjustment of the chin strap) but it doesn't have that piece that goes forward.

I have experimented with a few bitless options; however my horse always seems to have a fluttering birdie (nervous and distracted) when I ride without the bit. With the bit she seems happy and confident. I ride in a snaffle but keep thinking that bitless would be more comfortable for my horse...maybe she is telling me she is fine.
Clara

DrDeb
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 Posted: Mon Mar 1st, 2010 06:02 am
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OK, Ivy, if you won't cough up the dough to be able to ride your horse in the minimally courteous way -- that is to say in good equipment -- then you'll have to stop riding.

Think this through, honey. I've been broke too, many times, almost the whole time when I was in school, and that was many years; but nevertheless by the time I bought a horse, I still managed to always have access to good equipment somehow. Or else not ride. There is no middle ground here. What I am telling you is that I cannot accept "no money" as an excuse, because that's just what it is: an excuse. If you have the money to purchase, vet, and feed a horse you have the money to have any type of tack you choose to own.

If you contact Josh and tell him your situation, you MIGHT find that he would be willing to work it out with you. That's not a guarantee, but had the possibility of kindness and courtesy falling on you as if from out of the sky not occurred to you? Well, it doesn't to most people. But it lives, none the less.

"Knock, and the door shall be opened unto you." Sit on your butt making excuses, like the cripple by the Pool of Siloam in the parable, and you'll always be a day late and a dollar short when the angel comes and stirs the waters. -- Dr. Deb

AdamTill
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 Posted: Mon Mar 1st, 2010 01:23 pm
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Hi Clara,

>Are there 2 buckles on the chin strap?

I don't think so, if memory serves. The leather comes across, loops back on itself, and buckles down. Couple of keepers, but not two buckles (I don't *think*).

>And it looks like the piece that comes down from the top ring and goes forward is stationary. What is the purpose of that piece?

There are a couple of pieces of leather that run from the upper ring to the noseband, which act to prevent the twisting motion that can come with riding in a halter. That's also helped by the double ring attachment where the bridle reins get hooked.

>At a local tack shop I have seen what they call an english hackamore. It is a nose piece that you would attach to a headstall. It has the same buckle as the side pull and the two rings (one for the reins and one for the adjustment of the chin strap) but it doesn't have that piece that goes forward.


Sorry, don't know much about those.


>I have experimented with a few bitless options; however my horse always seems to have a fluttering birdie (nervous and distracted) when I ride without the bit. With the bit she seems happy and confident. I ride in a snaffle but keep thinking that bitless would be more comfortable for my horse...maybe she is telling me she is fine.


I would tend to say she's telling you she's fine. If the bit is fitted correctly, then it's not uncomfortable for her to carry.

My horse was very uncomfortable packing a bit due to the heavy handed nature of the trainer who put the first few rides on him before I bought him, and would would chew the bit nervously when I asked him to wear it under the sidepull at first. After our first ride in it however, when I proved I wasn't going to use it for anything but communication, he quit that entirely and is very quiet in the mouth.

I like my sidepull, and I was very grateful to have it for the six months when I restarted my guy, but our communication is much more refined in his snaffle. I'll probably bring it out again before we move to the hackamore, but I don't think the sidepull is more comfortable per say.

Even the best sidepull won't have quite the finesse that a well fitted bit will. Your horse might just be telling you that you that you seem to be "mumbling" when you go back to the bitless rig, and she needs some more direction.

kindredspirit
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 Posted: Mon Mar 1st, 2010 01:33 pm
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AdamTill wrote:
>At a local tack shop I have seen what they call an english hackamore. It is a nose piece that you would attach to a headstall. It has the same buckle as the side pull and the two rings (one for the reins and one for the adjustment of the chin strap) but it doesn't have that piece that goes forward.


Sorry, don't know much about those.



I think this is what she is talking about.

Kathy

Attachment: jumping hacka.jpg (Downloaded 800 times)

AdamTill
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 Posted: Mon Mar 1st, 2010 01:58 pm
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Okay, gotcha. Those would be better then a halter, but Josh's rig is still more stable with the double noseband attachment.

Josh's sidepull is a nice piece of kit, really. I'd prefer a single wider poll strap to the double straps that it has, since I was tending to have to shuffle the straps to keep them aligned properly. Still, that's a pretty minor complaint, and doesn't affect the function of the headgear.

Indy
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 Posted: Mon Mar 1st, 2010 06:53 pm
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Adam, Thanks for the info.  I would like the sidepull to have one strap over the poll too.

Kathy,  That is the thing I have seen at the tack shop. 
Clara

DrDeb
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 Posted: Mon Mar 1st, 2010 07:11 pm
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The biggest plus to Josh's outfit is not double straps under the chin, but the "Y" fork arrangement where the cheek pieces come down to attach to the noseband. If the rig has but a single ring, like the jumping hackamore shown above, then the noseband will tend to tilt downward, while the chinstrap will tend to tilt upward -- unless adjusted very snugly and/or depending on the shape of the horse's head. Josh's sidepull stays exactly at the angle it should be at.

The biggest problem with all sidepulls, and also with longeing cavessons, is their tendency to ride up into the outside eye. They twist around on the horse's head. This is why on both sidepulls and cavessons, you'll see different placements of chinstraps, multiple chinstraps, jowl straps, double jowl straps.

Josh's sidepull addresses this problem simply by fitting well, so that once it's on and you have adjusted the chinstraps, browband, and throatlatch, it simply does not move. You could MAKE it move by forcefully pulling on one rein, I suppose; but we don't ride that way.

With longeing, it is a different matter -- it is inevitable that the horse is going to ying when you yang sometimes, or that the greener horse or the ruined horse is going to lug outward, or even charge outward, and pull on the longe line. These are the very horses that most need to be schooled in the longeing cavesson, however. The ways to address the problem are:

1) If you know or you reckon he's going to charge, pull, or lug, then attach the line to the lowest ring to the inside, so that the pull comes straight across his head. The ring that will turn the cavesson the easiest is the one at the center-top of his nose. We would eventually prefer to use this ring all the time, with the longe line functioning as a draping rein, but that is longeing as for a finished horse and might have to be worked up to.

2) Design the cavesson with a Y-fork jowl strap. I've never seen one that had this so have been tempted to get my local leather guy to modify one for me. The "Y" branches would face upward. You can tighten a strap that goes across the horse's jowls until it is very snug, and not hurt the horse at all. You can't do this with a chinstrap -- when adjusted, that strap can only be snug enough to slip a finger under. I would place the tips of the "Y" fork so that the front one was a little ahead of the notch where the jowl muscles blend into the horizontal ramus of the jaw. The rear tip of the "Y" fork would lie just at the rear corner of the horse's eye. The rear branch would also have quite a bit of slant to it, so that when the buckle was tightened most of the pull would come on the forward fork. But the rearward fork would still function to hold the cheekpiece down and help prevent it riding up into the horse's outside eye.

3. Design the cavesson with a deformable "memory plastic" inside of the noseband. The stuff should have the working qualities of lead -- without the weight. I want to be able to shape it with my hands so that it will exactly conform to the shape of my horse's nose, but then I want it also not to deform, to keep its shape, even when the horse might lean on it during longeing. Maybe it could be formed of something you had to heat up to shape it, and then when it cooled it would hold its form. If I were doing it this way, I'd go right ahead and have the naked plastic with no padding. Then in the box with the directions, I'd have a roll of padding, not too thick but like moleskin, that you could then Velcro onto the plastic noseband. A lot of padding is not needed, you see, when the noseband fits exactly -- because when it fits exactly, it does not ride around. Goes without saying also that the plastic noseband would have good-quality reinforced terrets with rings at 5 positions: center top nose, directly to either side, and halfway between on both sides.

Well, Adam -- here you go -- maybe you can design us a prototype for something like this! I'd love to try it out and work for its R&D, because such a tool sure is needed.

While we're at it, we could also, by the way, do the 18th-century thing that Eyjolfur Isolfsson does at Holar College in Iceland, and design flat C-plates into the side of the cavesson, so that it would then not interfere with/crowd the bit. This makes it possible to school the horse really properly, i.e. the longeing function then assumes a more minor role, and you are really using it as a riding cavesson. This allows you to bring the horse along in the four reins, just as in the European classical High School and in Buckaroo horsemanship, which is merely an American variant of the Iberian variant -- the two reins, the four reins, and finally straight up in the bridle. Food for thought! -- Dr. Deb

Dorothy
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 Posted: Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 12:40 pm
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Hello All,

The noseband with rings pictured above is not what we would call an English hackamore in England!

The photo below shows an English hackamore (fitted a bit low and a bit loose!).

In the UK we have no tradition of riding bitless, so are unfamiliar with bosals, sidepulls and all the other bitless bridles that Dr Deb has mentioned. Until the last decade or so hackamores such as the one pictured would only have been used as a last resort when a horse was so traumatised it couldn't be ridden in any bit! The other type of hackamore commonly found in the Uk is a German hackamore, which has longer shanks (some up to 10"!!) and are often used by show jumpers.

You would be hard pressed to find anything resembling the noseband with rings in any tack shop, and would have to get one specially made if you want one here.

More recently, XXXXX crossunder bridles are becoming more common. The other thing you see frequently now in the UK are people under the influence of a certain XXXX person, riding in knotted halters.

Dorothy

Dorothy, I have edited the content of your post because it is forbidden to mention the names of either of the persons you named in this Forum.

The proper name of the rolled noseband with rings in the illustration above is 'jumping hackamore', not 'English hackamore'. In America, the device you illustrate in this post is called a 'mechanical hackamore', not something we would ever under any circumstances like to see used. The crossunder bridle is also something we would like to never see, because it is no. 1 very badly designed so that it does not promptly release, and no. 2 because it is absolutely a waste of money, since anyone in three minutes can learn to twirl the horse's head in an ordinary snaffle bit and/or in a good sidepull. -- Dr. Deb

Attachment: English Hackamore.JPG (Downloaded 755 times)

Last edited on Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 07:07 pm by DrDeb

kindredspirit
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 Posted: Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 12:50 pm
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Dorothy wrote:
More recently, XXXX crossunder bridles are becoming more common. The other thing you see frequently now in the UK are people under the influence of a certain pp person, riding in knotted halters.

Dorothy


And what about those XXXX devices?  I have not seen one that I like as I don't see where they offer a full release but many people ride in them and seem quite happy with their horse's response.  Dunno....

I am a fan of a good side pull because of the design.  On a brief stint as the equine director at a mountain resort that offered trail rides, I took horses out of mechanical hackamores and put them in side pulls.  I swear those horses breathed a sigh of relief when I did this.  One horse would not stand to have a hackamore put on, (difficult to bridle) when I put him in the sidepull he was a breeze to bridle.  Who says horses can't talk!

Kathy

Last edited on Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 07:08 pm by DrDeb

Dorothy
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 Posted: Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 12:56 pm
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Here is a photo of the bridle I ride my horse in.

I made this originally as a crossunder bridle, having got very irritated with a design fault in an early Dr Cook bridle. I may have inadvertantly improved on the function, as the way I have stitched the rings on puts them rather further back on the horse's head, meaning that the crossunder straps make a much less acute turn as they go through the rings, 90 deg or less. The makes them release more easily, and I never felt I had a problem with them releasing quickly enough. If the rings are further forward on the head, the straps make a more acute turn - almost 180 deg, and can get stuck.

In the past year though, I have found that Solo goes better with the reins just attached to the rings as shown. I have also made a sliphead, so that I can add a bit.

I like the Y where the cheeks attach to the noseband on the Josh Nichol bridle, though I do not find that my noseband does twist down, nor does it rotate around his head, inspite of being done up relatively loosely. However, Solo is extremely light and responsive to ride, and I never need to take up enough of a pull to cause this, which could be a problem on a different horse.

Is my bridle what you would call a sidepull? (I call it a Marks pattern bridle!!)

Dorothy

Yes, Dorothy, it is OK to refer to an jumping hackamore as a sidepull. 'Sidepull' is the generic term. The outfit you illustrate here is the other form of jumping hackamore, the type with a flat noseband. The flat noseband can either be just a flat piece of leather or it can be padded. This is the same outfit I rode my old Painty Horse in for years. -- Dr. Deb

Attachment: Solo Bridle websize.jpg (Downloaded 756 times)

Last edited on Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 07:11 pm by DrDeb

Indy
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 Posted: Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 01:00 pm
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Dorothy, We have the type you sent a picture of too. I believe they are generally called english jumping hackamores here. We have another contraption called an Arabian S hackamore. It has an S shaped side piece with either a piece of rawhide, leather or biothane over the nose piece, a chin strap which is most often a chain but can be swapped out for something else and a thin wire that holds the 2 sides together so that they don't flip outwards. I have one somewhere in my scrap pile.
Clara

Dorothy
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 Posted: Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 01:03 pm
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Hi Kathy,

our post crossed in the ether!

I will find a photo of a XXXX to post, though I know from previous threads that Dr Deb does not rate them, partly due to the slow release, and also because the crossunder straps can cause confusion for the horse when head twirling, the direct pull on the ring on the side you want to twirl to is ok, but the pressure on opposite cheek of the crossunder strap potentially asks the horse to twirl the other way. Not great.


Clara, yes, I too have the one you describe called a 'Little S' which I did buy from the US


Dorothy

Dorothy, please stop mentioning the name of a forbidden person. We do not mention these names here because mention constitutes implicit advertising for a product or person of whom we do not approve. You may discuss in generic terms only, i.e. 'bridles that do such and so'. No product of any type, whether we approve of it or not, can be mentioned here by name, because we are not engaged in advertising. We do mention items made by our own approved clinicians when those items are of high quality and recommendable for the benefit of your horsemanship and the horse's welfare. -- Dr. Deb


Last edited on Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 07:14 pm by DrDeb

kindredspirit
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 Posted: Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 01:09 pm
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Dorothy wrote:

Is my bridle what you would call a sidepull? (I call it a Marks pattern bridle!!)

Dorothy

Nice job Dorothy.  Here is what I would call a sidepull (from Josh's site, you can't see the rein rings though)

Attachment: sidepull_01.jpg (Downloaded 745 times)


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