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Wade Tree Saddles
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hurleycane
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 Posted: Fri Aug 7th, 2009 01:20 pm
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Google mirrored the above history as well from a book:

 http://books.google.com/books?id=SZXEGcF48ZAC&pg=PA240&lpg=PA240&dq=Wade+saddle+Pendleton+Oregon&source=bl&ots=-YAdXkLzEe&sig=nrwlE9t0hcyoJapPBRBr0cHIKSY&hl=en&ei=Pxp8SsT1A4aPtgf66qn0AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=Wade%20saddle%20Pendleton%20Oregon&f=false

Though I think Dr Deb's Conquerers addresses the subject - can't check as my book is on loan!

DAM
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 Posted: Fri Aug 7th, 2009 01:29 pm
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Thanks Clara,

Been there, I've spent well over 100 hours there over 3 vists.

dam

DrDeb
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 Posted: Fri Aug 7th, 2009 09:43 pm
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Yes, DAM, your information matches what I know as well. Mr. Wade's 'friend' was none other than Tom Dorrance, and the design of the Wade tree as we have it today (the REAL Wade) should largely be credited to Tom: just another of his many quiet contributions.

As to the saddle shop in Sheridan, it's the place where Buck and Ray get their saddles. 'Nuff info?

Now, I will add to this history by telling you one more thing. Tom was a genius, as anyone who knew him well will tell you. And he saw, and fore-saw, some of the real needs of a horse in terms of saddle fit -- things that were not there in most of the saddle trees that he could access back in the 1930's or 1940's. One of the main things that the Wade tree has is more 'flare' -- more of a funnel-shaped opening through the front of the tree. If you go in a museum and look at saddles that were being used in that era, obviously if they fit anything it was an animal with a back almost like a mule: very much more of an "A" shape than an "O" shape. And they just have no flare at all. But Tom's family was involved in breeding Morgans or Morgan-cross type horses, that typically have wider backs, and I am sure that must have been one of the things that made him interested in Cliff Wade's dad's saddle.

But you notice that Tom took that saddle, which was better in his opinion, and tried it, and still found that it needed modification. So he specified what the modifications needed to be.

This is what is called a 'design change' -- Tom changed the design. And he also changed the design of the seat to some extent. I think the saddle already had the stirrup hangers in the right place -- in the center, within 4" of the deepest part of the seat -- so that part was left alone.

Now when I met Dave Genadek back in the 1980's, I already knew all this history. So when Dave came to me and said, 'I've been working in the saddle industry for ten years, and I'm a saddle designer in the sense that I am a leather carver. But I have realized that no matter how fancy you carve the leather, that does not help the horse to have a better fit.' And he asked me to start teaching him the actual anatomy.

Then Dave took that information and started chewing it over in his own mind. And he began looking at hundreds of horses with all kinds of different backs. And over the first 10 years after I met him, I watched him come up with first a prototype, and then a better, and then an even better, design for a tree. And then several different designs, suited for different types of backs.

But because Dave did not ride at that time to any real extent, and was not close with Tom, Bill, Buck, or Ray, for a long time he did not hear about the 'Wade' tree, and on purpose, I did not tell him. I just let him go and see what he would come up with. And so the point of this story is that, in the end, that is exactly what Dave G. did: he 're-invented' the Wade tree -- or in my opinion, one better, because Dave's trees are suited to the wider-backed Quarter Horse of the post-1960's era.

In the last 10 years, Dave did began to ride, and at that point, very naturally, his understanding of what is needed in the whole design of the saddle increased by yet another notch. Currently he is very into the importance of how much the horse's build goes 'downhill' -- and note, this is a consideration for many Quarter Horse owners today which would not have been in Tom's mind, since his family's Morgans and his neighbors' Quarter Horses back in that day were all balanced level or nearly so. But today there are many people trying to ride a distinctly 'downhill' horse. So I expect Dave's designs to keep on evolving. The original Wade tree is still good too -- and far better than what you usually find on the mass-manufactured saddles. The key is to find the tree -- among these good ones, whatever they are called -- that best fits whatever horse you have.

I am happy to advocate any design, made by anybody, that is a good design -- that's the long and short of it. The purpose here though specifically is to teach horse owners who might need to buy a saddle what the PRINCIPLES are that underlie good design, so as to empower them to be able to identify good design when they see it, and not just look at the price tag, the saddle shop, or the manufacturer's name and assume that makes the saddle good.

Thanks for your contributions, DAM, we're glad to have you on board here. -- Dr. Deb

 

David Genadek
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 Posted: Sat Aug 8th, 2009 03:49 pm
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I don't see this discussion having much to do with saddles. I do see a as a discussion on whether we consciously create our horsemanship experience or whether we blindly follow another's experience. I see this as a natural course that we all follow when we learn something new. I began learning the difference from a man named Al Stohlman. For you non-leather heads, Al ,is one of the most influential people in my trade. I had grown up learning the craft from his books. When I began corresponding with him, my expectation was that I would get answers that would be comparable to the step-by-step instructions that he gave his books. At first I was somewhat set a back when my questions were answered with more questions. However, I soon came to realize that his answers were an indication that he saw me as a serious student, as such his assistance was designed to help me learn to think in a way that I needed to think, to actually be a saddle maker and not just a fancy upholsterer. Later, I would meet and get to know the legend behind the legend, Bob Brown. From Bob I would learn that there is only what you see in your head and when you focus on that, the specifics of how to get there will reveal themselves.
 
So how does this relate to the wade tree? If you just use a Wade tree because a highly skilled horsemen did without all the hard work and discovery that went into its development, the tool stands a good chance of not fulfilling your needs. Let me be specific on why this might be. It is common to hear Wades referred to by degrees which are referring to the angle in which the interface surface of the front to the bar is cut. The first thing you need to realize about that is that such angles are directly related to certain methodology of tree construction, and have little or no meaning outside of that specific methodology of tree construction. However, they do have an origin based on the anatomy of the horse. I have attached a picture of some 3-D modeled  back profiles in the shape of bars. When they talk about wades you will hear them referred to from 90° to 95°. If you compare that to the three backs above you will see that the Wade tree is designed to fit a very specific type of back. At best they can fit a 5° range, that is assuming they have the shape correct. If you look at the attached photo you will see that there is a range of 111° to 80°. Only the middle bar which we call our number one bar would fall into the range of the Wade. These back profiles represent my three most commonly used bars. However, right now in my shop I have backs that range from 80°to 140°. So we have a 60° range of change. The Wade model is only looking at about a 5° range of change. So clearly if you don't have a horse with a back that falls within that range the wade tree will not work properly on the horse. This is not to say anything bad about the Wade tree, it is to say that it was extremely well designed for a specific type of horse ridden in a specific way. Now it is up to our generation to expand this knowledge across the board.
Since Deb mentioned Steve Gonzales, I would like to elaborate on his work a little bit more as his work is about the most brilliant thing going in the custom saddle world. He is actually devised a way of creating a saddles in a nontraditional way that actually captures the specific shape of the horse. It amazes me that there is not a lot of discussion about what he is doing. I guess he is just too far in front of the curve.
David Genadek

Attachment: bar compaison.jpg (Downloaded 531 times)

Indy
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 Posted: Sat Aug 8th, 2009 05:01 pm
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I previously had an SR saddle that I loved. It was for my Arab/QH and fit her and I perfectly. When I got a new horse I sent it to Steve and had it refit to my new horse. When he received it and my plaster cast he was unable to refit it to my horse. So, he refit it to a "common" shape and what I got back did not fit either of my horses. It was not a good experience. Before it was "refitted", I did love the saddle and it was the best saddle I ever rode in. It was balanced, my horse never had a sore back (even after 50 miles) and it was made well. I loved the adjustable rigging and free swinging stirrup bars.

I plan on ordering Dave's DVD, because although I feel confident in my ability to tell if a saddle fits my horse when it is on her, I am easily sold on ideas and need to learn some basics of good saddle design/function. I have a few saddles. I currently ride in a flex panel saddle. It has some positives and some negatives. When I read about them it seemed like the best option for my very round mare who is also uneven in the shoulders. The rigging is adjustable (which I like). And she has not been sore and seems to be comfortable. It took a while to get used to being higher off her back (Dave has discussed this in another thread). The negatives are that the girth needs to be tight and it tends to shift. I think that Steve's design is a better one as it does not cause these issues and is more comfortable and secure for the rider. I had been having some difficulties with my mare and was unsure if I was the right person for her, but since going to the Tom Curtin clinic we have been doing great. I always loved riding her, but not always dealing with her on the ground. Now things are so much better. We are working as a team both in the saddle and on the ground and my goal is to find us a saddle that will work better for us.
Clara

DrDeb
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 Posted: Sat Aug 8th, 2009 06:06 pm
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Dave, I THINK we have not been discussing what Steve Gonzales is doing because he is so far ahead of the curve, but rather we have not been discussing it because I'm not totally sure of what aspect of his work you're referring to. Since Steve does not usually post here, would you be willing to tell us what excites you about his work?

Also: would you elaborate on the diagrams you put up -- they're more or less too small to tell anything about, and I can't figure out from what you said in the text what the diagrams are supposed to show us, other than that you have saddle trees to fit a wider range of backs than the Wade. Educate us as to what the "angle" you are talking about refers to. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Indy
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 Posted: Sat Aug 8th, 2009 08:34 pm
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The SR saddle has a laminated fiberglass tree. It functions like a frame work. It is an hourglass shape and is the part that the rider sits on. The saddle also doesn't have traditional type bars. Instead it has a skirting that is filled with foam and is lined with sheepskin. This skirting lies on either side of the horses spine and is in contact with the horses back muscles. It covers a large area and helps with weight distribution. The rigging is attached to the tree and is based on an old calvary design. It makes a Y shape that is very adjustable and helps keep the front and the back of the saddle level and secure.

Dave's saddle is very interesting because it has wider bars that flare out at the shoulders to allow more room. It has a similar type rigging as it is a Y shape. It also has a rear cinch. Both designs are similar in the seat. They are designed to be comfortable for the rider and are narrower in the seat.

Dave, I would like to hear about why you have decided to keep the bars on your saddle? I believe that the reason that my SR was unable to be refitted to my horse was due to her wide/uneven shoulders. I have wondered if your design would be able to accommodate this issue as it allows for a good bit of flare. Also, you offer a cordura model. Does this affect the saddle function in any way?
Clara

David Genadek
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 Posted: Sat Aug 8th, 2009 09:34 pm
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Deb,
 
I have only seen a few of Steve Gonzalez's saddles. Every time I see one I think oh God here is  another person trying to come up with something new. However, when I look at his everything is sound. From what I can tell is he is making a rigid fiberglass glass mold from the back shape and then incorporating it into the skirts and then attaching the seat elements on top of that much like the trooper saddles did. The thing that excites me most is that he has realized that you have to match the shape of the back and you cannot reduce it to mere angles and widths.
 
I'll see if I can get a chart with measurements that everyone can see into the forum. In the chart I have put down the bar number that we use followed by the whither angle measured from the center to a tangent line off  the surface of the back. The second column is that measurement times two. These would be the measurements that would be the equivalent to a 90°or 95° Wade. The rib cage angle is the angle of the rib cage shelf with all the muscles on it. The twist in degrees column shows the amount of twist from the front angle to the rear angle. It shows the twist is pretty consistent probably within the margin of error of measuring such complex shapes. The other thing we did was to draw rectangles around the shapes, In hopes that we could find some magic proportions. These rectangles make for an interesting visual summation of the angles involved.
 
Clara,
One of the things that differs my approach from others is my belief that there are five essentials of riding that every rider is responsible for governing in their horse. Those five essentials are straightness, engagement of the hindquarters, lifting the root of the neck, having the horse move forward while he is engaging as hindquarters and lifting the base of his neck and lastly bending in the rib cage. If the rider fails in governing any of these essentials it will manifest as a pathology of the back. One of the reasons people think saddle fitting is so difficult is because they are trying to fit pathologies. What you indicated in your post is that your horse is crooked. It is very common for people to have owned a horse that was properly trained and never have a problem with it because it compensates for the riders inabilities. Often they will get a new horse that someone along the way has messed up. They are often rehab horses and since the reality is few people have the ability to fully govern the five essentials fewer have the ability to go back and correct mistakes others have made on the horses they purchase. When a rider is unable to govern any one of the five essentials a pattern of shifting pathologies will develop. To get a handle on this I would read all the articles in the knowledge section of this site. You will need to read each of the articles many times before it will all sink in. But even better Deb now has a DVD on the subject and I can promise you that those DVDs will give you insights far beyond what you can imagine.
David Genadek
 


Attachment: tree angles.pdf (Downloaded 46 times)

DrDeb
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 Posted: Sat Aug 8th, 2009 09:50 pm
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Clara, Steve's saddle DOES have bars: you have indeed described them.

The hourglass shape derives from the fact that Steve began his work from the 'brida' (now called 'English') traditional tree, that is shaped like a 'U', with the open upper frork of the 'U' bridged by the pommel arch, which will be bolted or riveted onto the tails of the 'U'.

Dave, on the other hand, began his work from the 'jineta' (now called 'Western') traditional tree, that is shaped like 'I I', and then is bridged both before by the fork or pommel arch, as well as behind by the cantle arch, to form a final shape that looks like '[]'. (How funny to try to do these representations on the keyboard, like emoticons).

So, in a way, you wind up in the same place from either traditional starting-point; or in any case, you do IF your main purpose is to get the horse 'cosmically' fitted. Note that both these guys have 'deformed' the bars: Steve's 'U' has become 'wiggly' or hourglass-shaped, and it's also not flat like in one plane, but curved in a three-dimensionally complex way. And if you flip one of Dave's saddles over, you'll see that his bars curve in all planes too: because the horse's back does.

So the first big innovation of the original Wade was the 'flare' or funnel-shaping of the front part of the bars, which you see if you look into the gullet of a Wade-tree saddle from the front. Try this at your local tack store and see if you can find any saddle whatsoever on the rack that has that kind of room for the movement of the shoulders through the front: the funnel shape should not only be pretty wide, but the main point is that it should carry back almost 50% the whole distance of the bars.

One reason that few tree carvers (or the remaining one or two commercial tree mass-manufacturers) do not make a tree that is 'bent' or three-dimensionally curved to this extent is that it is difficult to find wood that will stand up to that. Beginning from the 'brida' or 'English' tree type is easier in some ways because for a very long time, these trees have not had their foundation material be wood, but rather metal: hence the 'spring tree' which used to be advertised for some jumping saddles. But today there is much freer thinking regarding materials, and foam, fiberglass, rubber or plastic composites, and wood-plastic or wood-fiberglass laminates have all been tried -- in addition to the original traditional composite, which was wood and rawhide -- still among the best for resilience and durability, though heavy.

Dave has also been experimenting with computer-driven laser-carving: this is one way to optimize the use of wood, as well as (another big practical problem in manufacturing) to obtain uniformity and quality. One of the things that Carey originally wanted in the saddle she is looking for is 'light weight'. The tree is the heaviest single component that goes into a Western saddle. You cannot take out the tree, as we have repeatedly said. However, you can reduce weight by opting for thinner fenders (both fore-aft cut narrower and thinner leather); lighter stirrups; fewer layers of skirting; and a hornless fork, as seen on many enduro saddles.

However, if I were going to spend the money for a western saddle, I think I would want to compromise between weight and the whole reason to buy a specifically 'western' saddle, which is that it should LOOK western: and for my taste, the more Buckaroo-ish it looked, the happier I'd be. I love stuff like fringes and horsehairtufts, I love mane-hair braiding, I love stuff that sparkles and tinkles. And I admire the Buckaroo traditions in horsemanship, roping skills, and general ranching skills. Almost all amateur riding today, if it is done in public, is costume riding in some sense; so if you have the dough to buy the costume, why then, have a ball and go all the way. And this is where leather-carving comes back into the picture: for when you've got a great tree, the right kind of seat, and a quality housing, if I had the dough then I'd sure want to have Dave lay on the hand-carving job with all the roses and traditional patterning. I would then have not only something that would be a joy to ride in and a pleasure to be seen in, but also an heirloom that could be passed down to children or grandchildren who want to carry on with good horsemanship.

For you will find that, even if one of these saddles fits horse 'A' perfectly, and then along comes horse 'B' that it does not fit, horse 'C' will eventually show up that it fits again. Neither Dave nor Steve would ever tell you -- as so many mere salespeople will -- that 'this saddle will fit any horse.' That is total B.S. BUT -- the Wade tree, and Dave's trees, and Steve's trees all, in my experience, fit a wider range of horses better than other trees. Dave and Steve both rail against the whole idea of 'micro-fitting'; so do I. So you don't micro-fit; you fit 'within reason'. And you take care of the difference by your riding skills, and also in a way through a knowledge of conformation and livestock selection: because the better-balanced your horse is in terms of not being built downhill, the better any saddle will fit him and the less trouble it will give you.

Only in the case of the most 'extreme' types of backs -- such as that presented by my old Painty Horse -- are these guys going to be unable to help you. Painty, being 50% old-fashioned American Saddlebred, meaning big, blocky, and substantial: he had very high withers which dropped down, and down, and down into a fairly short freespan and terminated in wide, flat loins. In other words, if you laid your hand against the side of Painty's withers, and then drew your hand backwards in continuous contact with his skin until you were back to the loins, there would be an angle change of fully 90 degrees over a horizontal distance of only perhaps 12 inches. This is among the strongest of all back types, and the most suitable for years of service under saddle: but the angle change, referred to as the 'twist', is among the most extreme and thus almost impossible to carve a wooden tree for that would not simply snap under service.

Another thing Painty needed was VERY wide spread between the bars (Dave could hardly believe it when I measured him; I actually took a Dave tree and sawed it in half with a hacksaw, and tacked in wooden blocks -- it took blocks about 1.5 inches wide to get the bars out to where they should have sat). Like other ASB's and TWH's and some TB's, Painty would also have benefitted from a 'cut back' head; BUT having tremendous shoulders, he would also have benefitted from the funnel-shaped gullet. But if you funnelled the gullet enough for him, the saddle would rock forward all the time. This would imply the need for a kind of extreme rear-emphasis rigging design.

The long and short of it is....we saw what would have been needed, but there was no way to actually manufacture it. You therefore see me in photos riding Painty in a Wintec (original no. 1 design) with a PLEASE NOTE specially modified tree -- I had a guy go in and custom-forge me a fork and bolt it in there, and that, plus my own riding skills, made for trouble-free operation. This is always going to be the way it is, folks, to some extent, no matter what horse you have: so Clara, if your horse has 'uneven shoulders' I hope you have read the Lessons from Woody paper in Knowledge Base -- Dave tells customers to do that too -- a lot of them are barrel racers whose horses haven't been made straight first before work is demanded of them. That's guaranteed not to work! -- Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Carey
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 Posted: Mon Aug 10th, 2009 03:42 pm
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I am still torn.  I spent the weekend at a Buck Brannaman clinic-- so there was a whole arena filled with some pretty nice Wade saddles.  And there is something about the look of them that is just beautiful.  And I am close enough where I could go try on a bunch of trees and see if there is even a Wade tree available that would work for me and my horses.

But at the same time  I do notice that most people could get their leg underneath them more-- I know that is easier said than done-- and I am not sure that the traditional Wade  really has that ideal position in mind-- especially when I think of most Dressage saddles-- and I go watch those type of clinics- and even novice riders can achieve a pretty balanced position.  So that makes me lean back toward Dave--because you have made it clear that is a priority. 

Then I have the issue of some non QH type backs-  and it does seem like the Wade is made for a a QH type of back and a QH gate.  I myself tend to like arab crosses, TB types, and I have a Hanoverian-- so this just further confuses me!!

I was really impressed with Buck all around.  What a great clinic--  actually there was a film crew so everyone wiill be able to see this clinic at some point or atleast chunks.   

Last edited on Mon Aug 10th, 2009 03:44 pm by Carey

Carey
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 Posted: Mon Aug 10th, 2009 07:09 pm
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I find this to be such an interesting discussion. The thing I most wonder about especially when someone speaks of what Steve Gonzales is doing-- is what about a saddle that will fit more than one horse?  Because to me I think that is what the original Wade tree was trying to do,, and I think that has a lot of value.  If I only planned on riding one horse for the next 15 years I think having that type of saddle would be great.  I am too young to have met some of these men, but it seems to me that they were pretty down to earth and practical- they wanted something that was going to make sense for a long time in a bunch of different situation.

I also think that things should get better with time, and it makes sense that we should be able to have a "better" saddle now, than we did 50 years ago.  and it is also very true that horses have changed, and how we use horses has changed, so that has to be a consideration to a saddle maker-- and I think that is where I am stuck.  Because it does seem like these traditional makes are just preserving that tradition-- and not advancing-- but I don't really know from first hand experience. 

It also bugs me  that many of the people who are making wade saddles don't seem to mention anything about the fit of the saddle and how it effects the horse-- although they do seem to be very concerned about the craftsmanship of the saddle- so there does seem to be some sort of disconnect there-- and I do find it to be very confusing.

Last edited on Mon Aug 10th, 2009 07:43 pm by Carey

Indy
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 Posted: Tue Aug 11th, 2009 01:31 pm
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Dr. Deb and Dave,
Thank you for your replies. I have read the articles in the Knowledge Base several times - it takes me numerous times to really work through the information. I am focusing on the Woody article again. We happen to be rebuilding our basement doors and so I plan on using the scraps to build my own Woody. I think at this point I am understanding more about how horses lean and why. I understand the points about what will not help (pushing the horse forward into fixed hands). The pictures and comparisons of the horses body being like cars of a train were very helpful. I am not fully understanding what I can do to help correct the issue. I understand the Birdie Theory and can see that following a moving object of interest is helpful. I am still trying to work through the horse stepping under it's navel. I get it when I visualize the horse standing basically still or moving slowly. I am having difficulty putting it all together when the horse is trotting down a trail. I can picture the horse with it's nose tipped to one side or when going around a bend and looking like the photos of the arab feeling the pressure from the fence. But I am not understanding a horse trotting calmly down a trail and having crookedness as described. I get the rider being crooked and causing crookedness in the horse but I am just having difficulty thinking of the horse being crooked first. Any help in better understanding this would be greatly appreciated. I will of course review Woody again after writing this.
Clara

Jacquie
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 Posted: Tue Aug 11th, 2009 04:03 pm
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After some considerable searching, I have at last found a really wonderful English style dressage saddle for my big horse.

It has a laminated plywood, carbon fibre and kevlar flexible tree, with variations available in the width at the pommel points and variation in the angles of the rails. It uses memory foam for cusioning for both horse and rider and I have never sat on a more comfortable saddle. The sadlery company is very small - and almost unheard of even here in the UK. Their saddles suit Iberian and warmblood type backs very well. I also use a wintec on another horse I have and this is excellent and comfy for him and is very comfy for the rider too. Actually my horse chose the saddle = he expressed his preference clearly (though not rudely) when ridden in each saddle and endorsed the decision we had made for him!

Saddles can make or break the situation for rider and for horse. It is so important to get them right. I have no experience of Western saddles, but they look to my eyes to be cumbersome and heavy, though they must spread the load over a larger area of the horses back.

I use a different saddle for all four of my horses, and would never try to use the same one on all of them. Their backs are all so different.

 

Jacquie

christie
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 Posted: Tue Aug 11th, 2009 04:32 pm
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miriam wrote: Hi Carey,

I'm like you, was riding bareback b/c it felt better than those 4 saddles I owned. Luckily I found found D. Genedak who lives and makes saddles here in MN. Getting into this saddle is like stepping into the door of home. I was surprised to learn that the greater percentage of horses do fit a "#2" tree, with the second largest percentage fitting the "#1" tree. Dave G has done tons of work researching this. Buying this saddle was the best investment I've ever made and it fits both my QHs and my three Arab mares.  I still ride bareback for short distances like b/t pastures.


I also have a DG saddle. Have had it for about 4 yrs now. It's a hard seat trail type saddle and is comfortable to sit in as all get out. I rode bareback until the saddle came as I had finally convinced myself that my 'borrowed' saddle pinched, oh yes it did...

I forget now if I got the 1, 2 or 3 tree, it is the Arab/Warmblood one though. I sent a trace of her back and several photos. I have a not very tall Arab with a wide back. It's been interesting to learn of the different horse shapes and to see very tall BIG horses with narrow backs in comparison.

My saddle seems, so far, to have fit most of the other horses(mainly QH's) I have ridden it in great too. It did not fit my friends Walker at all and I think any other narrowly built horse it would not either.

Last edited on Tue Aug 11th, 2009 04:32 pm by christie

Allen Pogue
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 Posted: Tue Aug 18th, 2009 02:38 pm
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Hi Folks, Since there has been a lot of discussion about Tom D's saddle it seems appropriate to share a picture of it..

 This is one I found on the internett a year or so ago when I was researching Wade saddles.

Allen

Attachment: Dorrance wade.jpg (Downloaded 378 times)


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