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Size of Horse's Feet and Limbs -- Need Your Data
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Mark
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 Posted: Sat Aug 1st, 2009 02:52 am
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Here are some more measurements. I recently visited a friend who maintains a large stable of hunters and jumpers. We spent an enjoyable couple of hours with measuring tapes, weight tapes, and height sticks. In addition to the hunters and jumpers, there were a few heavier horses used for vaulting on the premises, so I got their measurements too. The end of the list includes a few retirees on the farm. Anyway, some big, some small, some in-between. These are all new measurements, no repeats from anything I submitted previously. (I mention this because Horse 1's numbers look similar to Marvin's, but as the descriptor shows, he's a Warmblood-cross.)
 
This has been an interesting exercise because the more horses I measure, the more I wonder about the validity of weight tapes for large horses.

Now that I am back in my town of residence, I have my eye on a couple of Arabians and Saddlebreds that hang their halters at the boarding stable. If you've had enough of me and my numbers, just let me know.

This has been a fun exercise!



 

Attachment: Data Table-Horse Measurements.pdf (Downloaded 33 times)

Last edited on Sat Aug 1st, 2009 02:53 am by Mark

DrDeb
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 Posted: Sat Aug 1st, 2009 05:08 am
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Oh no, Mark -- I'm not sick of your contributions at all! Very grateful indeed for this contribution. Wonderful! It puts us up to almost 130 animals measured in total, with a few more fairly big horses in there where we most need them.

I am very happy not only to hear that you are finding this a fun exercise and feel that you are learning something from it -- but also to note that your table has been downloaded several times already, meaning, I assume, that other readers here are graphing the results. That is absolutely the right thing to do!

Thank you again! -- Dr. Deb

DrDeb
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 Posted: Sat Aug 1st, 2009 08:06 am
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Mark, having graphed up your data tonight so that I can easily detect outliers and anomalies, I need to query one of the horses for which you submitted data. The one that seems a bit out of line is the 12 YO Percheron gelding that stands 16:3 hands with reported BT of 10.5 in. and hoof width of 7.5 in., with weight reported at 1330 lbs.

He plots out not completely out of reasonable possibility, but the weight seems lower by at least 100 lbs. than it should be. The same may be said for the other very large horses you submitted, and I agree that weight tape measurements get less accurate the bigger the horse is.

I query this because, however, it might not just be the weight tape; maybe the BT and hoof width were mis-reported, or mis-reported in addition to the weight being off. So if you and your friend revisit this project together perhaps you could check. Also, if you or your friend happen to have opportunity in the next month or so to actually weigh some of these animals on a truck scale, or at a veterinary clinic, we could possibly develop a formula to tell us by what proportion the weight tape is off.

If none of these things is convenient, though, the horse I've queried is the current higher-weight candidate for the proverbial "drop the highest and lowest measured datum" which we do prior to statistical analysis. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Brandy
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 Posted: Sat Aug 1st, 2009 01:13 pm
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Dr. Deb, if you ever get some data that would allow correction equations to be developed for the weight tape, I'd sure love to see that.  I weigh my horses every six months and then compare that to the weight tape.  They are on the big side.  The weight tape is off by 150-200 lbs every time.  My suspicion is that the weight tape overestimates the small horses and underestimates the big ones, but does a pretty good job in the middle.  I've wanted a data set to develop the equations with for a long time......my puny example of 5 horses isn't enough.

DrDeb
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 Posted: Sat Aug 1st, 2009 07:15 pm
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Yes, Brandy, that's my feeling also. Where it is an experienced horseman or an equine vet, I think their 'eyeball' estimate is often better than the weight tape in the case of the larger horses.

Maybe I'll start a thread just for the purpose of trying to develop a 'correction algorithm' for weight tapes sometime later this fall. Meanwhile, for the present study, I pretty much have to go with the weights as they are reported, and simply call that 'variation' in the data.

Mark, if you see this -- I forgot to ask you, are any of the horses in the last large batch you sent unsound currently, or have any had some kind of chronic trouble, i.e. specifically: ringbone, sidebone, 'flat, sore feet', or navicular?

Thanks -- Dr. Deb

Charlotte
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 Posted: Sun Aug 2nd, 2009 08:40 pm
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A couple more for you Dr Deb if they are any help:

Z:

Swedish warmblood/TB, 7 yrs 15.2hh, gelding

Cannon bone: 8 1/4 inches

Width of hoof: 5 1/2 inches

Guesstimated weight: 1100 lbs

Barefoot, generally sound but can peck over stoney ground

A:

Welsh Section A, 5 yrs 11hh, gelding

Cannon bone: 6 1/4 inches

Width of hoof: 4 inches

Guesstimated weight: 440 lbs

Barefoot, sound on all surfaces

Linda
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 Posted: Sun Aug 2nd, 2009 11:03 pm
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13 year old,  Half Arab/ Half Tennesee Walking Horse,  Mare

B-T  8 inches

Wall to wall hoof,  just trimmed in preparation of shoeing  4.75  inches

Weight  1200 lbs. ,  weight tape

Is shod at all times, removed shoes prior to foaling 5 years ago this past March, turned out not to be a good thing for her, was very tender footed, and hooves chipped excessively.

Linda
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 Posted: Mon Aug 3rd, 2009 02:23 am
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I just realized I did'nt give my mares height.  16 hands

GoldPony
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 Posted: Tue Aug 4th, 2009 12:10 am
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One more:

13 yr. old Oldenburg/Thoroughbred mare

Ht.- 15.1 hds.

Bone - 8"

Wt. - 1000 lbs by tape

Hoof - 5 1/8 "

Shod and sound.

DrDeb
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 Posted: Tue Aug 4th, 2009 12:52 am
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Thank you, ladies -- your efforts are very much appreciated. Anybody else out there with bigger-sized horses that they are using in some riding discipline, i.e. part-draft or draft crosses, and the more "Olympic-sized" WBs? Hoping to hear from y'all. This study is going beautifully, by the way -- results to be posted this fall, so you still have time to contribute. -- Dr. Deb

Mark
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 Posted: Tue Aug 4th, 2009 01:23 pm
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Deb: The batch of data that I sent last week was from a group of horses in Kentucky. Unfortunately, I am back in Pennsylvania. Horses 1-11 and 17-21 can be remeasured, as I will be taking another trip to the Bluegrass State at the end of this month, and they reside year-round at that farm. Horses 12-16 are nearer your neck of the woods, as these horses were flown to Kentucky for the vaulting test-event for the World Equestrian Games (WEG) but are now back on the West Coast. Unfortunately, ever seeing them again is improbable, unless maybe it's next fall at the WEG. You'll notice, that the one horse you specifically asked about, the 12-year-old Percheron, is one of the "traveling" horses. Because of my unfamiliarity with Horses 12-16, I cannot speak of their soundness.

But I do have some additional information on some of the other horses:

Horse 1: ringbone; significantly cold-backed, enough so that it hinders his ability to work well, unsure of what treatment modalities have been used to ameliorate pain other than proper saddle-fitting

Horse 4: arthritic changes in several joints, particularly fore ankles and hocks; not sound for everyday use

Horse 5: cold splint, nothing to suggest chronic pain

Horse 6: chronic arthritis in hocks; requires intraarticular injections for continued use as a high-level hunter (3'6 fences)

Horse 10: chronic arthritis in hocks; requires intervention for continued use as a low-level show hunter (2'6" fences)

Horse 20: arthritic changes in ankle; requires intervention for continued moderate-work use as a school horse (ridden three or four times weekly, usually not jumping)

Horse 21: pelvic-bone fracture as a younger horse; does not seem to have changed movement, per owner


Here's a plan that I might be able to carry out when I am in Kentucky. I have access to portable electronic scales there. Assuming my workplace is agreeable, I bet I could borrow this and take it to my friend's farm, where I can remeasure all of the horses with the weight tape and then also get an electronic reading. Again, I wouldn't be able to get all 21 horses, but probably several of the ones mentioned. I will try to make arrangements. If all goes well, I could have numbers to you by the last week of August.


I hope this information helps. Mark

 

DrDeb
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 Posted: Tue Aug 4th, 2009 08:23 pm
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Absolutely tremendous, Mark. The business with the portable scale will go a long way toward helping us figure out how to write a "correction algorithm" for weight tapes.

Also: I am specially grateful for the soundness/unsoundness information. Chronically unsound horses are of special value because they go on our chart as red dots. The idea is to see if the red dots have a tendency to cluster anywhere within the total sample.

Anyone else having access to horses in the weight range over 1200 lbs. is specially welcome to post here, with my continuing thanks. -- Dr. Deb

GoldPony
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 Posted: Fri Aug 7th, 2009 07:32 pm
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I know you need big ole' warmbloods, but there are none available so I thought I would add one more pony of a different type.

5 yr. old mare -cross of reg. Spanish Mustang/BLM mustang

Ht. 14.1

Wt. 710 by tape

Bone- 7 5/8"

Hoof- 5"
Barefoot and sound, ridden regularly.

ozgaitedhorses
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 Posted: Mon Aug 17th, 2009 09:54 pm
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Better late than never....

1.
10 year old mare; Standardbred
B-T circumference: 20.3cm
fore: 12.1cm (wall to wall)
height: 155cm
weight: 560kg (weight tape)
toes in at the front; shod while she was racing (pacer), had at least two bowed tendons during that time; barefoot for the last 5 years with one instance of bursitis/tenosynovitis, but otherwise sound

2.
10 year old mare; 1/2 Arab, 1/2 Peruvian Paso
B-T circumference: 18.0cm
fore: 10.8cm (wall to wall)
height: 145cm
weight: 480kg (weight tape)
never shod, sound

3.
4.5 year old gelding; 1/4 Arab, 3/4 Peruvian Paso (son of horse #2)
B-T circumference: 18.1cm
fore: 11.0cm (wall to wall)
height: 140cm
weight: 420kg (weight tape)
never shod, sound so far, but we'll see...

Cheers,
Manu

 

AngelaT
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 Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 06:21 am
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Don't know if you are still compiling data, but we had to wait on the next farrier visit. It was an interesting exercise anyway and we'll be looking forward to your article. This has also inspired me to get a scale weight on the horses.

1) Morgan/Percheron mare, 9 yo

B-T 9 in

5.75 in wall to wall

1300 lb taped

Sound, shod

2) TB gelding, 21 yo

B-T 8.5 in

4.5 sole to sole

1000 lb taped

sound only with corrective shoeing,  history of distal P1 fracture left front

3) Belgian/QH mare, 9 yo

 B-T  8 5/8 in

5.75 in wall to wall

1200 lb taped

Barefoot, sound


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