ESI Q and A Forums Home
 Search       Members   Calendar   Help   Home 
Search by username
Not logged in - Login | Register 

Elk Nose
 Moderated by: DrDeb  
 New Topic   Reply   Print 
AuthorPost
Kathy
Member
 

Joined: Thu May 17th, 2007
Location: Glamorgan Vale, Australia
Posts: 6
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Feb 19th, 2009 01:48 am
 Quote  Reply 
Hi Dr Deb

Yes you have helped me considerably.  On this matter and on a few over the years.  I have had the privilege of attending your dissection clinics at Canunagra, Queensland in 2006 and 2007 and also a clinic prior to that with Ken Faulkner.  ( I was the one with the fox skeleton at 2007 clinic). 

I have your Principles of Conformation series, The Birdie Book, and many issues of the Inner horseman but not the Conquerors.  That is to be next purchase.

"Getting real" with my attitude towards the arabian horse has been an excellent and on going journey.  I am starting to understand the myths and legends that surround the arabian horse are not helping the horses or the breeders to make better breeding decisions. ie the length of head or extreme of a dish. 

Thank you again Dr Deb


Kathy

Dorothy
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 15th, 2010
Location: Bath, Somerset, United Kingdom
Posts: 223
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Feb 7th, 2010 04:29 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Hello Dr Deb et al.

I know it is a long time since Kathy asked her question, and that I am rather resurrecting this thread, but I have a horse that I believe has a Moose nose as described by Dr Deb, and wondered if you would be interested in seeing him, so am attaching a photo of his head.

Please do delete it if this is inappropriate or too big - I think I have reduced the size sufficiently.

The horse is an Anglo-Arab, age 10, and he certainly does not have any breathing or wind problems!

Dorothy

Attachment: Solo.JPG (Downloaded 438 times)

Dorothy
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 15th, 2010
Location: Bath, Somerset, United Kingdom
Posts: 223
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Feb 7th, 2010 04:31 pm
 Quote  Reply 
I also wonder if this is of interest, Tango is a rising 3 year old Arab x ASB, and I think he may have the 'Jibbah' that Dr Deb mentioned.

Dorothy

Attachment: Tango.JPG (Downloaded 438 times)

Dorothy
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 15th, 2010
Location: Bath, Somerset, United Kingdom
Posts: 223
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Feb 7th, 2010 04:36 pm
 Quote  Reply 
....and lastly a classic Crabbet Arab profile.

24yr old pure bred Arab - a much flatter forehead, with little 'dish'.

(Dr Deb, you have met this horse in 2002, when my friend, Erica Lynall brought him on a course with you in Devon)

Dorothy

PS I hope it is ok to post things on older threads? I am gradually working my way through them, and finding many fascinating. There is another asking the difference between Chiropractic and McTimoney Chiropractic, which I can answer in some detail if readers are interested?

Attachment: Nif.JPG (Downloaded 436 times)

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3254
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Feb 8th, 2010 05:30 am
 Quote  Reply 
Dorothy, yes, all three are as you describe. In America, the proper name for a "moose nose" is actually a "Sir Archy head", as this TB imported in the 19th century and an important ancestor to several American breeds, frequently threw this shape of head.

The proper term in Arabic for the bulging forehead seen in example no. 2 is 'jibbah'. The Arabic term for the 'turnover' area at the top of the neck is 'mitbah'.

The Crabbet-bred has a diminishing muzzle, characterized by a thin jawbone. Horses descended from Serafix frequently have this type of head.

Andi Bartnek -- I have a special message for you with respect to this thread too, by the way. The bump on your horse's face we now know more about -- please see the most recent issue of Equus Magazine, where the condition (inflammation of the suture between the frontal and nasal bones) is discussed in the 'case studies' column.

And Dorothy -- if you would be so kind, I would love to receive copies of the three head photos you have posted, for future use in my column in Equus Magazine. The photos are excellent and the heads represent commonly-seen types, so their presentation in that magazine will benefit a lot of people. If you will send them, please size them about 4" wide at 300 dpi or about 15-25 inches wide at 72 dpi, if possible. Please send all conformation photos to: drdebphotos@equinestudies.org.

Thanks very much! And yes of course, it is just fine for people to resurrect old threads. I would rather have old threads resurrected than somebody start a second thread on a topic that has already been under discussion. -- Dr. Deb

Pauline Moore
Member
 

Joined: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007
Location: Crows Nest, Australia
Posts: 273
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Feb 8th, 2010 08:42 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Hello Dorothy

Thanks for the offer to explain the difference between McTimoney chiropractic and other forms - I'd be very interested (couldn't find the old thread on this subject).

Best wishes - Pauline

Andi Bartnek
Member


Joined: Wed Apr 11th, 2007
Location: Airdrie, Alberta Canada
Posts: 18
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Feb 9th, 2010 01:05 am
 Quote  Reply 
Yes, I had already read that article in Equus and coincidentally, at the Alberta Horse Owners and Breeders Conference in Red Deer last month, one of the vets from the vet school at Saskatoon was talking about sinus conditions in horses. In talking to him, he felt the bump was the result of microfractures in the bone below the site where they cut the surgical flap to remove the cyst, from when they had to lever the flap open (they only cut 3 sides and break it on the 4th) and represented reprofiling of the bone to heal that. AND interestingly enough, rather like in the Equus article, this winter we have noticed that the bump is reducing in size. The vet's take on this was that quite probably it would continue to reduce and may even return to more or less normal profile in due course. Not that that is a big deal to US, but at least Mama Moose may not mistake him for one of her own when she's passing through his paddock!

Liz
Member
 

Joined: Mon Feb 15th, 2010
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2010 08:44 am
 Quote  Reply 
Hi there Dr Deb,

I'm new to this forum, recommended to me on a newsgroup, so if the following questions have been discussed before, I apologise.

Is there any scientific documentation available, regarding respiratory difficulties in Arabian horses with extremely concave "Disney" noses?

Likewise with dental problems?

Or are these just rumours? I have searched the internet and asked around, but nobody has any documentation.

I have briefly gone through the discussions here for the past two years and the only reference I can find, is the following written by you about a year ago:

"The recent trend to put foreshortened heads, that look like pinheaded cows, on Quarter Horses, Morgans, Saddlebreds, Walkers, and other noble old breeds is sad and wrongheaded -- not only do 'extreme' heads interfere with the horses' ability to breathe properly, but they are associated with very high incidence of dental abnormalities. So no, Kathy, it is not the 'ram headed' horses who can't breathe or perform; these problems are far more likely to occur with small-headed, fine-muzzled, short-muzzled, or highly flexed or "dished" configurations."


I'd be grateful for any information or links you might have. Thank you.

Liz (with 4 almost flat faced Arabians)

 

Jeannie
Member


Joined: Thu May 7th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 187
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2010 04:31 pm
 Quote  Reply 
A cute little Arab recently came to our barn , and as a friend and I watched him bounce around with his big eyes, I mentioned how childlike he appeared to me in his look and action, and wondered if that was a quality that drew a  lot of women to the breed, subconsciously. The woman who owns him got him after her children had grown.
      
                                    Jeannie

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3254
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2010 08:06 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Absolutely, that is a major driving force in American horse breeding. Look at photos of Arabs bred in Asia: where they whole breed is controlled by Muslim men. They do not commonly have big, bulging foreheads or huge doe-eyes. They do not shave off all the hair around the muzzle and eyes and oil the naked skin to "enhance" the appearance. They do not breed tiny, upwardly-bent muzzles. The Arabian horse of Asia has a straight or slightly bulging forehead, a muzzle of normal length and great depth, and normal horse-type eyes. I attach a representative image.

And given what Americans NOW know about Muslim culture -- which is to say we know much more about Muslims after 9/11 than most Americans ever did before that time -- how likely do you think that the "I-Dream-of-Jeannie" type costume worn in "Arabian" costume classes would be permitted in the homeland of this breed? Not on your life. Arabs who observe American Arabian horse shows just laugh, or else are outraged. -- Dr. Deb

Attachment: Arab Legionnaire mares & foals cprsd.jpg (Downloaded 308 times)

Seglawy Jedran
Member
 

Joined: Sat Nov 1st, 2008
Location:  
Posts: 70
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Feb 18th, 2010 04:02 pm
 Quote  Reply 
They look like endurance horses.  So if the function of large sinuses, or in thise case a jibbah is to act as a chamber to help moisten 0% humidity air so the lungs don't mumify, and such a head is fronted by a teeny little nose with a concave drop to it, wouldn't the teeny nose actually restrict the amount of air coming in- which would defeat the purpose of being able to.'drink the wind.' In contrast a strait nose with highly distendable nose flaps would get large amounts of air in much like a ram induction hood scoop on a dragster engine, if i understand it correctly.
thanks
Bruce Peek

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3254
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Feb 18th, 2010 06:48 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Yes, Bruce, the jibbah is there as a bulge because the frontal sinuses beneath it are large. This is the same dry-climate adaptation that we see in other species of mammal that live in deserts: i.e. go look at the head of a donkey, a gerbil, a jackrabbit.

The other thing that all these forms have in common, including the subspecies of Equus caballus from which the Arabian breed is derived, is long ears. Only American breeders put teeny little ears on horses, especially stallions. The normal and original form for the Arabian's ear is long and narrow. This is a heat-loss adaptation.

The major objection to American breeders' practice of reducing the length and diameter of the Arabian horse's muzzle is not that it reduces air intake. Reducing the size of the muzzle, and also bending the long axis of the skull to produce a more pronounced-looking "dish" and/or to create "cuteness" or greater juvenility in the appearance, CAN act to reduce air intake but not in 99% of cases so much as to make a noticeable difference in the horse's ability to breathe.

What is really a problem with cutesie-pie Arabian heads, and also with the same in miniature horses, is that the smaller you make the head, the less room there is for the proper eruption and occlusion of the teeth. Only among Arabians have I ever seen what is sometimes diagnosed (mis-diagnosed) as an 'intra-nasal hematoma', i.e. a big blood blister that develops along the internal margin of the nasal passage. This lesion IS a hematoma, but that isn't the most important thing to know about it. Its real nature is that it is the "backside" of an erupting superior molar tooth, which, having no room to erupt properly, has rotated so that the roots become oriented too much medially, press upon the thin septum that separates the nasal chamber from the maxillary sinus into which the tooth should be projecting, so that it instead pushes against the partition, deforming it inward to create the bulge in the wall of the nasal chamber. Incoming air then beats against the mucosal lining covering the bulge, creating a hematoma in those tissues which is merely secondary to the problem with the tooth. The proximal cure for this situation is not surgery to remove the hematoma, but surgery to remove the tooth. The ultimate cure is to quit breeding horses with tiny, upwardly-bent muzzles. Women who cannot get off this trip deserve a whipping IMO.

Likewise -- apart from miniatures which have an extraordinarily high frequency of pathologies of all types -- among normal-sized horses the highest frequencies of eruption problems and malocclusions occur within the Thoroughbred and Arabian breeds. TB's have problems not because their heads are short with teeny muzzle diameter, but because they have bred the lower jaw off of them: note how thin the mandible is on most TB's. Inbreeding plays a role with the TB also, as it does with the Arabian.

We need to note also that eruption problems and malocclusions are also frequent among QH's, Appys, and Morgans when these breeds (as they now often are) are bred with the idea that the 'ideal' head is that of an American Arabian. So it isn't the breed per se that matters here; it's the actual size and shape of the head, its structural configuration.

The breeds least likely to experience these types of problems are, by contrast, draft horses, Lippies, old-fashioned Appys, Andalusians, Mustangs, Criollos, and all other Iberian-related breeds. These horses have normal-length muzzles with big terminal diameter, deep jaws especially anteriorly, and straight or slightly convex skull axes/frontal profiles. Any horse of any breed whose skull has this configuration will also have a lower chance of problems, i.e. Asian Arabians such as shown in the photo.

I attach another most interesting example: this is a Jordanian Arabian that I once knew, a most noble and incredibly athletic individual, bred by and once the property of the King of Jordan. His is an ideal head! -- Dr. Deb

Attachment: Galahad 1970s Forum cprsd.jpg (Downloaded 244 times)

Seglawy Jedran
Member
 

Joined: Sat Nov 1st, 2008
Location:  
Posts: 70
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Feb 27th, 2010 07:41 am
 Quote  Reply 
Wow- he looks happy, and wise at the same time. He also looks tough and hard enough to pound nails withand still keep going.
Best wishes
Bruce Peek


 Current time is 10:20 am
Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2   




Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez