ESI Q and A Forums Home
 Search       Members   Calendar   Help   Home 
Search by username
Not logged in - Login | Register 

Elk Nose
 Moderated by: DrDeb  
 New Topic   Reply   Print 
AuthorPost
Kathy
Member
 

Joined: Thu May 17th, 2007
Location: Glamorgan Vale, Australia
Posts: 6
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Feb 16th, 2009 03:34 am
 Quote  Reply 
Hi Dr Deb

 

The question was raised at a (Arabian) conformation workshop regarding why an Elk Nose should be a penalised.  My question is what/if any structural problems would a Elk nose cause to a horse.  My initial reaction to the questions was it may obstruct air passage ways.   Please walk me through what the skeleton would look like with an Elk nose, so that I may have a clearer picture of what is going on.  Or is this purely a vanity problem, with the owner/breed registry and the horse can lead a normal healthy life? 

 

Kathy

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3254
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Feb 16th, 2009 04:09 am
 Quote  Reply 
Kathy, old bean, they come up with stuff all the time, don't they? I have heard of "elk neck", but I've never heard of "elk nose". You're going to have to give me the particular description on that one. I wonder if this is not a confusion? -- Dr. Deb

Forgewizard
Member
 

Joined: Thu Aug 2nd, 2007
Location: Ormond Beach, Florida USA
Posts: 3
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Feb 16th, 2009 06:11 am
 Quote  Reply 
Dr. Deb n Folks,
I wonder if they are talking about grease applied to the noses of show arabs? Do they still DO that? When I used to go to the Arab shows the grease applied at both ends of the horse was enough to supply McD's for Mcfries!

Other than that, unless some breeder has managed to cross  a member of the deer family with a member of the horse family - I'm atill wondering - what the heck is an Arabian elk nose?

Cheers,
Kim

Kathy
Member
 

Joined: Thu May 17th, 2007
Location: Glamorgan Vale, Australia
Posts: 6
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Feb 17th, 2009 01:44 am
 Quote  Reply 
Hi DR Deb

My understanding of an Elk Nose is when appraising the horse's head in profile, there is an arch of the nasal bone (convex) rather than a concave of a traditional arabian head.  This arch is only below where a cavesson noseband would sit approximately.  There are a few arabian families in Australia with this trait.  

 

Kathy

thegirlwholoveshorses
Member
 

Joined: Thu Sep 11th, 2008
Location:  
Posts: 69
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Feb 17th, 2009 01:52 am
 Quote  Reply 
I have heard of it refered to as a "moose nose," not specifically in reference to any one breed, but to any horse with that shape of nose/muzzle.  That related back to a certain author who worked to correlate shapes of body features to genearlized personality/ trainability factors.

Tammy 2
Member


Joined: Sun Feb 3rd, 2008
Location: Redland, Alberta Canada
Posts: 129
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Feb 17th, 2009 04:38 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Is this different than what some call a "roman nose"?  Which is pretty much the opposite of a "dish" on an arabian.

 

Kathy
Member
 

Joined: Thu May 17th, 2007
Location: Glamorgan Vale, Australia
Posts: 6
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Feb 17th, 2009 07:00 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Yes it is different to a Roman nose as the arch starts where the cavesson noseband would sit and continues to the muzzle.  It definitely does not start from higher up on the head.

Fryslyn McGee
Member


Joined: Sat Apr 12th, 2008
Location: Michigan USA
Posts: 13
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Feb 17th, 2009 07:06 pm
 Quote  Reply 
I've always understood Moose nose as being bulbous below the cavesson line, as Kathy said.  Roman nose as convex between the eyes, or convex from poll to upper lip in the worst cases (seen some...ick!). 

I google-imaged "elk head" and came up with numerous good pictures, and it would appear that they are the opposite of Moosey, eg: they appear to be tapered, blunt, square, almost spatulate.  Not unlike other cervidae- ex: whitetail deer (which we have in abundance in Michigan).  Not something I'd like to see on a lovely desert bred mare!

On the other hand, what we call "moose" in North America are called "elk" in Europe, are they not?  I worked with someone who showed Norwegian Elkhounds, and her group refferred to them colloquially as "Moosedogs."

thegirlwholoveshorses
Member
 

Joined: Thu Sep 11th, 2008
Location:  
Posts: 69
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Feb 17th, 2009 09:14 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Ah... so the "moose nose" and the "elk nose" are not the same thing then.  I have not been successful at finding a photo of an elk nose, though!

Tutora
Member
 

Joined: Fri Sep 5th, 2008
Location: Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 127
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Feb 17th, 2009 11:09 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Hey Fryslyn! Though I started out favoring Arab heads as a kid, I now love convex heads even more...so I want to offer friendly disagreement about any "Roman" noses being "ick"! My handsome Andalusian/Percheron Aquila, the eagle, with his chiseled aquiline profile, agrees with me...especially as he was just called "the bomb" by a new admirer two days ago.--Elynne

Kathy
Member
 

Joined: Thu May 17th, 2007
Location: Glamorgan Vale, Australia
Posts: 6
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Feb 18th, 2009 04:41 am
 Quote  Reply 
I agree, it is not I would like to see on an Arabian head, but what I want to find out is "is it detrimental to the health/stamina/passage way of air of the horse".  From my research I am coming to the conclusion it is not acceptable in an Arabian show horse due to not being ascetically pretty, but is does not affect the health of the horse.

I have been unable to find a suitable photograph of this trait.  I dislike putting up photos that I have not taken as I do not like to dis-credit someone's horse over the net.  If I can find a photo I will post it (if I am allowed)

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3254
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Feb 18th, 2009 08:18 am
 Quote  Reply 
Kathy, OK, now I understand what was meant. I know this trait as either 'moose nose' or 'ram nose'. It is different, as other correspondents have pointed out above, from 'Roman nose', which is convexity of the entire face from a point above and between the eyes all the way down -- in the extreme, this is called 'banana head'. But a ram-nosed horse may actually have a dish, rather than a convexity, higher up -- either between the eyes or just below them, and yet the lower part of the face, from a point somewhat above the nostrils down to the upper lip, is convex.

One of the most important progenitor sires in American horse breeding history, the Thoroughbred Sir Archy, had the ram-nosed type of skull. In him it was pronounced enough that he actually had a bump at the juncture of the nasal and frontal bones. Sir Archy passed this trait to many of his offspring, and those many offspring are now registered Morgans, American Saddlebreds, and American Standardbreds. They are excellent horses on which the Arabian type of head does not belong.

If you will review my book "Conquerors", you will also see that the ancestral Draft population (by which I mean Draft capital "D", the bloodline in existence in western Europe prior to domestication) also possessed this head configuration, and it shows up in many of the descendants of this ancestral population, vis., the many modern breeds that are wholly or mostly Draft. They too are excellent horses on which the Arabian type of head does not belong.

Now, what is the Arabian type of head? It is a sub-type of the Ox-head configuration that I discuss in "Conquerors". As the Arabian breed is the YOUNGEST of all the Asian breeds, so also its head shape is derivative of head structures that existed in western Asia before the Arabian horse was developed from those populations. In other words, you need to remember that the Arabian horse is not the oldest horse breed; it does not go back in pure form to the Pleistocene or to a time before domestication. The Arabian horse, at the very earliest, was developed in the 8th century A.D., and it was developed by Muslim men to suit their own needs and tastes.

Those needs and tastes were three: warfare; racing; and travel undertaken in an arid part of the world. So, the originators of the Arabian breed and their sons, and their sons' sons, selected hardy horses from pre-existing herds in northern Iraq, southern Turkey, Syria, and to a minor extent, Egypt. Particularly the Egyptian bloodlines tended to have big (inflated) frontal sinuses. The pre-existing Ox-heads already had the other important structural characteristic, which was a negatively-flexed internal skull axis. It is this which creates the basic framework for the 'dish'. In other words, Ox-headed horses have a negatively bent skull, but they lack the inflated frontal sinuses which give the Arabian horse its bulging forehead contour or what is called in Arabic the 'jibbah'.

Not all horses of Arabian bloodlines in Asia have the jibbah. Many have flat foreheads -- flat all the way down from a point between the eyes to the central cartilage that supports the nares. A few hark back to the old Ox-head, even though they are Arabians (Arabians come from somewhere -- don't forget that part). Americans who have come over to Asia in order to cajole Muslims into selling them some bloodstock have universally wanted the type with the jibbah, although sometimes, if the horse is exceptional in other ways, they will settle for one with a straight face. The Muslims laugh at this because, as in so many things, they perceive us as superficial and ignorant of the deeper truths, and often it must be admitted, they have been correct.

So the cutesie-pie, foreshortened head with a so-called 'teacup' muzzle does not exist to any extent, and is not greatly valued, in Asia. The Muslim men who breed Arabian horses expect them to race or endure, and this is something that cutesie-pie pasture ornaments tend to not be good at. But in America, in those cases where they exist for show, they can be worth big money. I am telling you this so as to support you in 'getting real' in your attitude toward the Arabian horse and its head. The head of the horse is not the most important part about any horse.

The recent trend to put foreshortened heads, that look like pinheaded cows, on Quarter Horses, Morgans, Saddlebreds, Walkers, and other noble old breeds is sad and wrongheaded -- not only do 'extreme' heads interfere with the horses' ability to breathe properly, but they are associated with very high incidence of dental abnormalities. So no, Kathy, it is not the 'ram headed' horses who can't breathe or perform; these problems are far more likely to occur with small-headed, fine-muzzled, short-muzzled, or highly flexed or "dished" configurations.

If the reasons why the 'ram nosed' horse is superior are obscure to you or this explanation is hard to follow, perhaps you'd like to come on and sign up to be in one of my anatomy classes. After that, you won't be having any difficulty. And if the history interests you, maybe you'd like to give "Conquerors" a look....it's a pretty good read, I've been told. -- Dr. Deb

Last edited on Wed Feb 18th, 2009 08:22 am by DrDeb

Fryslyn McGee
Member


Joined: Sat Apr 12th, 2008
Location: Michigan USA
Posts: 13
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Feb 18th, 2009 03:18 pm
 Quote  Reply 
I knew it!  Thanks Dr. Deb for pointing out that the Baby-Doll heads the stock horse folk are so enamored with are "not right," I've been arguing about that with my stock breed buddies for years.  I return to the fray better armed now...

Oh, and Tutora, when I say roman noses are "ick," I refer not to the noble & glorious aquilinity of the Iberian horse, or a slighly strong profiled draft horse (our Percheron stallion, for example) but the bone headed nastiness of a low-bred, common as dirt backwoods draft horse (yes, I'm a bit of a snob).  I prefer a flat profile- my two year old (my avatar) has a profile proofed by a laser level and a nose length proportionate to her rangy, beautifully modern self.

Andi Bartnek
Member


Joined: Wed Apr 11th, 2007
Location: Airdrie, Alberta Canada
Posts: 18
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Feb 18th, 2009 06:56 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Interesting synchronous timing on this thread - just as I am contemplating a new bump that appeared on my Andy-TB's nose about a month after having a sinusotomy for a cyst. It appeared an inch or two below the surgery site, is hard feeling but no heat, doesn't seem to bother him any - just THERE. Vet had no explanation on it either, so we don't know if this will be his new look forever, or if it will resolve and reduce over time. So Dr. Deb, any ideas on what underlying structures might be involved here? Thanks for any guesses.

Attachment: DSC00637 (WinCE).JPG (Downloaded 290 times)

Tutora
Member
 

Joined: Fri Sep 5th, 2008
Location: Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 127
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Feb 18th, 2009 11:38 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Okay, Fryslyn, I get you--and I completely agree with you about the baby-doll stock horse head idiocy! I was almost in shock the first time I saw a QH mare bred for that type of head. As Dr. Deb said, my vet has also mentioned the dental problems caused by such fatuous breeding policy inflicted on horses. (I felt the need to use the word "fatuous" today.) --Elynne 


 Current time is 09:17 am
Page:    1  2  Next Page Last Page  




Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez