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Dr. Deb, what is your beef with Clinician X?
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Joe
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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 06:16 pm
As an old German saying has it (translated) "We grow too soon old and too late wise."

Joe

Tutora
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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 06:36 pm
Hi Stacy  -I mentioned head twirling on an earlier post and you asked me about it. There are some great answers on other threads so I'll point some of them out. First, there's "Woody" and " True Collection" in the Knowledge Base. Then, try these threads: "Twirling the Head"--Adrienne's answer on Oct.11, 2007; "Baucher"-- Pauline Moore's reply on Feb. 22, 2008; "Raising the Base of the Neck"--all of Pauline Moore's descriptions of musculature (sorry I forgot to note the date of the OP). Leah's post "Can we please talk about coiling of the loins..." might apply here, too. As for XX, I know he's been outspoken against Rollkur, but I've never seen him nor read one of his books, so -- rare for me -- I'm without an opinion. :) --Elynne        

Last edited on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 06:44 am by DrDeb

David Genadek
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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 07:31 pm
Carey wrote:  The thing that gets me when I read the criticism with clinician X is the fact that it doesn't seem like anyone is really familiar with what they teach.  They emphasis the emotional/mental/spiritual side of the horse way over the physical.   The program that they teach is "Way more than Riding" in that it is a way to use horsemanship as self development so that you can become a more centered and concious individual and develop a willing partnership with a horse.  Some people do not get this and get task oriented and I admit are really quite clumsy and maybe should take up bike riding instead of horsmanship- but you see that in everything.
They teach you to become part horse so that you can see the world from the horses point of view- to some of this this is innate and to others it is hard to learn- but that is the xxx program- it is not about HQ yields and bridless riding- it is about partnership unity and harmony.
And the other thing is they have created a community of like minded individuals who gather and host clinics or people like XXXX and even Dr Deb Bennet.  And I find that to be really a great contribution.
All that being said-  I myself have felt really confused about what clincian xxxx has created- and in some ways I do think that he has no idea what he is doing or where they are going- he used to do well sort of goofing off and now he has a whole bunch of people following him-  that fact is really apparent when you go to his place-  It really is the blind leading the blind- but there is some type of star quality that he and his wife have that is pretty captivating that leads me to believe that they are on to some level of truth.
So I feel really grateful to have found this Forum because I have felt for a long time like something was missing- so Perhaps eveything Deb has brought to light is true.  I can't wait to dive into some of Dr Debs materials.  Thanks Carey



Here are some statistics on domestic abuse. You will see that nearly a million women a year are being abused. How much of that is being done in the name of love? Does the fact that over a million people a year are attracted to this type of behavior mean that it is good?

David -- This is Dr. Deb. I don't think we need the statistics, so I've removed them -- your point is made without the need for any more. In the posts below, Waldo is disturbed at anyone making a comparison between domestic violence/rape and what we see in Clinician XXX's public presentations and videotapes. You haven't given Waldo any background -- it's too big a leap for him.

The story that Waldo needs to hear is this one: Once upon a time, there was a man who saw a woman to whom he was attracted, and he approached her and asked her if she would go out on a date with him. But the woman didn't think too much of the man, so she said no, politely but firmly.

Well, this didn't set too well with the man. In fact, the longer he thought about it, the more it seemed to him that the woman OUGHT to go out with him. "She is so beautiful," he thought to himself, "so if ONLY she would cooperate with me, then we could be seen in public together -- and that would make ME look SO good."

So later that night he drove his car to the woman's house. He got out of his car and knocked on the door. When she opened it, he reached in and grabbed her, and dragged her to his car. He used "all the force it would take, but no more than it would take," and he stuffed her into the passenger seat and slammed the door.

Now the point of this story is to get our students to realize what the woman is feeling! Not too difficult I imagine to do that! There would be fear, and very likely also a certain slyness, because the woman might figure he was so dangerous that the only way to come out of it alive would be for her to fake cooperation until she could find a moment when he might be inattentive, and then she could bolt.

And another object of this story is to get students to re-imagine the plot in any number of different ways -- what if she liked him just fine in the first place? What if he had done more to convince her without force?

And also: it should provoke this question -- when is force 'force'? How much physicality constitutes "force"? Who decides when we should call it "force"? Could it still be force at very low levels of physicality? If the answer to the last question is 'yes', then obviously we cannot use literal measures of physicality to measure "force" -- there has to be something deeper.

The "something deeper", we think, relates back to the man's attitude. He does not want the woman for herself; he values her only insofar as she is useful to him. This -- the Bible calls it Covetousness -- is what drives the man's actions. There is something wrong or "off" inside the man. Perhaps this is what the woman sensed initially, the basic reason she said 'no'.

It doesn't stop there. The man not only covets the woman, he also becomes angry and vengeful when he can't initially get his way. One of my favorite C.S. Lewis quotes is this: that the very signature, or motto, of Hell is: "if I can't have it, you can't have it either." This is the opposite of "....and the greatest of these is charity." Charity, that burns in the countenance of the very angels, if the man had had that, would be the inner attitude that would drive him to ask himself WHY she had said 'no' in the first place, and to repair and improve all he could within himself before doing anything else.

This is the essence of what I call 'deep work'.

Everyone reading this thread: please follow on down as I make 'internal' comments in several other posts. I've been returning to California by plane for the last 24 hours and thus unable to monitor this thread for that time. -- Dr. Deb

 

Last edited on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 04:39 am by DrDeb

Blue Flame
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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 07:53 pm
David Genadek wrote: . . . . They understand that you cannot make another conscious of this other than on a one to one basis. . . .  . . . . You can’t learn this in a book you have to be around people that know it before you will be able to really recognize it. . . .

Since this is a sentiment that appears to be often repeated here, I would like to challenge it - not so much whether it is right or wrong - but because it is being expressed as an absolute.

Someone, somewhere, somewhen, was the first to discover the connection you are referring to and I have no doubt at all, that from that time to this, others have made the same discoveries totally independently.

As for books, well people learn in different ways. For some, the written word allows them to have control of the time frame they need to digest the information, read between the lines and make the connections. Conversely, clinic and group learning situations with time constraints can be a formidable barrier - especially when the situation evokes emotional responses not conducive to the learning.

The repeated expression of the sentiments quoted as if they were absolute facts sets the alarms going on my BS-o-meter.

Blue Flame, this is Dr. Deb. You are asking when mankind first discovered the deep principles of horsemanship. To get an answer to that, go look at a book that shows the paintings from the walls of the cave at Lascaux, or any of the other caves in the French and Spanish Pyrenees. Those paintings are not less than 12,000 years old, and they come from a time before people had domesticated horses. Or look at some of the rock art of the American Indians -- of course that relates to buffalo, moose, and elk because it was before horses were brought back to the Americas. In "The Birdie Book", I reproduce an Amerindian rock drawing showing the buffalo's spirit proceeding out of its mouth, just as you can (if you have the eyes to see it), see a horse's spirit coming out of its mouth when it yearns to be with another horse, or with a human.

There are, I believe, two "streams" by which deep knowledge of animals, or the possibility of animal mastery, has entered this plane of existence. One stream is from Outside: God if you will. Every once in a while, and in the Birdie Book I report historical records of at least four of them since the 18th century, a person is born on earth who just seems to have the deep knowledge innately. They have it from early childhood, and other people notice this and comment upon it. They can do almost-magical things with animals, and they tend to grow up such that they arrange their whole lives around animals. Our elderly teacher was one such man; he had horses, cattle, dogs, and, he told me, he had once gone on an African safari and enjoyed that too. I asked him if he found the African animals to be like his horses (and he always told us that our horses should be just like dogs), and he said 'yes'.

The other "stream" is the historical stream. This is the stream by which father teaches son or daughter. This seems generally to be weaker, but it's still possible that a man or woman who is a great horseman can have children that are great horsemen and horsewomen. The best examples of this that I know of are the Knie and Konyot families of circus fame. Of course the historical stream begs the question: how far back in this family can you carry it? Was Freddy Knie, Sr., an avatar as our elderly teacher was an avatar? In my view, the answer to this is 'yes'.

So, Blue Flame, you can push the re-set on your BS-o-meter. When we tell you that an avatar -- an incarnation of a being with superior insight to the true nature of animals -- came among us in our time, the truth is not being stretched -- in fact no description of it that I can give would probably be big enough to be adequate. And when we also tell you, and others reading here, that there are quite a few people out there who want to be thought of as avatars themselves, we are also not lying to you. They want what they can never have. The funny part is, if they could stop wanting it so bad, they might find at least part of it.

You've been good enough, Blue Flame, and so has Waldo, to admit that you aren't the most experienced. This is the most serious problem that you have, because, yes, it is really true, you cannot learn horsemanship by reading words. You cannot learn it by watching anyone's videotape program. The ONLY way it can be learned is by spending time with someone who "gets it", who is not a surface worker like the man whose videotapes you have been viewing. All I can tell you and Waldo both, is that the difference between those we recommend, and the surface workers, is real and important. Having heard that, you can either believe it (and go find some of our recommended people); or not believe it (in which case, we'll figure on seeing you in five years or so).

Meanwhile, either way, I want to recommend some reading to you, which will help (you see I don't recommend just any BOOK, either):

1. "Kinship with All Life" by J. Allen Boone

2. "Zen in the Art of Archery" by Eugen Herrigel

3. "Mastery" by Leonard (I forget his first name).

Best wishes -- Dr. Deb 

Last edited on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 07:06 pm by DrDeb

Blue Flame
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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 08:02 pm
David Genadek wrote: Here are some statistics on domestic abuse. You will see that nearly a million women a year are being abused. How much of that is being done in the name of love? Does the fact that over a million people a year are attracted to this type of behavior mean that it is good?

Drawing parallels between the x's and murderers, rapists and wifebeaters? C'mon!!

BS-o-meter now has smoke and sparks flying out of it as it bounces around the benchtop. Blue Flame, this is Dr. Deb: Go back up in this thread and read the comments I have made to you and also to Dave G. above. Thanks -- Dr. Deb

Last edited on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 05:46 am by DrDeb

thegirlwholoveshorses
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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 08:51 pm
Can we get back to our normal routine of asking horsemanship questions and discussing our horsemanship/horse ownership experiences?  Doesn't anyone out there have a genuine, burning question or issue that has nothing to do with anyone else's methods, books, videos, clinics, etc?!  I love logging on each day to read NEW threads; questions & discussions with Dr. Deb about solutions.  Even questions that revisit old threads and further discussion and understanding.  THAT is how I grow in my understanding.  While some of this thread has brought up good information, some amusing arguments, and debate, it has grown tiring because no one is asking questions anymore about their own horse, their own experience, what is happening TODAY when they went out to ride or work with their horse. 

Happy trails!

David Genadek
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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 08:57 pm
People get trapped in unhealthy relationships all the time and think it is as good as it gets. I see it with horses all the time. It is like talking to woman ,sporting a shiner her husband gave her, telling me what a good guy he is. However the point was that just because a lot of people are in a unhealthy relationship or drawn to an unhealthy relationship doesn't make unhealthy relationships good.

David Genadek

christie
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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 09:22 pm
David Genadek wrote: People get trapped in unhealthy relationships all the time and think it is as good as it gets. 

I have never believed this, but I could be entirely wrong. I don't believe people don't think it can be better, I think it's that staying with what IS is more comfortable than making a change.

About a year ago I left a boarding situation that was 'comfortable' in every way except for some emotional abuse I was accepting from a person.  The abuse was nothing more to me than exceptionally annoying, and eventually I left when a clear 'opening' arrived...it was a wonderful opening but making the change was still hard!

 

David Genadek
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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 10:08 pm
First, I am talking about clinicians in the abstract and the type of relationships I am speaking of can be seen though out the horse world.  Many of you seem to have trouble looking from a broader perspective.

Jess

 I have, and from my perspective I see it as very abusive and confusing to the horse as compared to the horsemanship I am accustomed to.  In fact I just don't understand why people think horses need such intense and constant pressure.  As Liz always says; "They aren't alligators." From my perspective much of the instruction in the horse world is more about the Human gaining a sense of power and control over the horse than it is about establishing a working relationship. That is just what the actual actions tell me.  I don't listen to the words I observe the reality around me. Keep in mind that I speak with horse people from all over the world everyday and as rule folks don't usually find me until everyone else has failed them so it could be that my perspective is skewed and I am only hearing from a small percentage. However, when I do see videos or watch people at Expos or even go look at their web sites I see crooked horses, horses pushed to the point of insanity and controlled and manipulated to make the person look good.  I'm just not in to that.

I am gloriously happy in my insanity.  Hooray for the insane !!!!

David Genadek

 

 

Leah
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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 10:30 pm
Ew David, I have been reading this thread with great interest but I must say the analogy to rape and domestic violence did actually push the envelope a pinch for me.

It might be interesting and a bit ironic to note that Clinician X uses the same analogy when describing present day 'competitive dressage'-he calls it rape.

I actually have the same issue with his use.

Perhaps it is because I know people that have lived through this misfortune, that drawing similarities just leaves me a little cold.

Back to the discussion...I actually have thought about offering comments. I have been involved with Program X for MANY years, but never on an exclusive level...It was because of frustration with the physical development of my horse within Program X that lead me to Dr Deb!

I find myself in a position of having been exposed to all elements of that program and now absorbing the best I can of Dr Deb's teaching. I find myself 'checking' one teaching to the other to see where the differ in principle.

It is interesting!

Last edited on Sun Oct 26th, 2008 10:33 pm by Leah

Leah
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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 11:21 pm
I would love to know what tape that is Tutora.

I will answer your question but I want to give it some thought. I want to give as unbiased an answer as I can so I need to sit and think first! LOL.

Yes, Program X has changed over the years in many ways, but I also see Clinician X in videos from years ago and then now and see consistency.

I would prefer to answer the question specifically as to what you saw vs. now but if we can't sort through what tape it was then I will give my general impressions!

Leah, Tutora, and Jess: Your sub-conversation on this topic has been deleted because it would be more appropriate for you to discuss this through your own private correspondence. As you know, I do not recommend ANY videotape or other program produced, at any period of time, by Clinician XXX, but if you like this stuff, then you're of course free to discuss it privately.  -- Dr. Deb

Last edited on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 06:49 am by DrDeb

Leah
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 Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 12:57 am
Dave, I do agree with you that many clinicians are abusive to the animals-and many do so in the name of natural.

I guess I just cringe a little on the topic in general...

Carey
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 Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 01:25 am
I am not going to call what I saw happening at the xxx place abuse, but it definetely is some sort of control, and it is because they tell people not to go to other teachers and to only come to them for information and that is for your own good as a learner.  I found that obscene- especially when it comes to starting young horses.  There just aren't xx's horse starters in my area and I am quite capable of doing it myself and plenty athletic I am a trained dancer and Yoga instructor, but these young inexperienced instructors that they have with no life experience prance around forbidding anything of the sort.  That has been one of my main concerns with the whole thing. 

Carey, this is Dr. Deb. Anytime ANYONE in ANY walk of life starts telling you that you are "...only to come to them for instruction, and that is for your own good as a learner", you should be highly suspicious. In fact, you should start looking around to see whether there is a bowl of Kool-Aid.

I have had to laugh because this happens to me all the time: I get accused by people who would love to join a sect, of running a sect. Some of our longer-term readers will be able to remember a couple of instances not that long ago, when someone who wrote in here and received an answer from me that they didn't like, would come back and accuse me of demanding that they study "only" with me or that I would be trying to "control" what they read.

Accusations like this come out of the person's emotional state at the time -- that is, a state of fear. Because, Carey, the SCARIEST thing in the world is freedom, and that is what I offer to students. They are absolutely free to accept what I tell them or not. If they intend to be in my class, they must obey my direction while in the class (that is for safety, and also so that I can convey whatever teaching or insights). But that's all that I ask -- the one hour of the person's time, that during that hour they set aside any other ideas and allow me to teach them. Apart from that, there is no school, no "movement", no "training", no levels, and no method.

No one has ever learned to train a horse, Carey, except through feeling that they had the freedom to experiment with their horse. -- Dr. Deb


Last edited on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 07:01 am by DrDeb

David Genadek
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 Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 01:49 am
Leah wrote: Dave, I do agree with you that many clinicians are abusive to the animals-and many do so in the name of natural.

I guess I just cringe a little on the topic in general...


Rightly so!

Yes, I agree with all of this too. The rape analogy has truth in it, and the most uncomfortable part about it is that the ESSENCE of rape has nothing to do with sex. It is right that this realization should be disturbing. -- Dr. Deb

Last edited on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 07:04 am by DrDeb

Tutora
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 Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 02:04 am
Leah- It sounds like a good idea to wait for input from Dr. Deb. Thanks. I want to be candid by saying that it's because a fair number of people around here (where I live) are - or perhaps were-- into XX's program that I'm trying to understand how they find it acceptable; it's a huge turn-off for me so I know I'm not objective. But I'm trying to be fair and maybe tone down my "ick" gut reaction if someone can give me good reasons to. If this sounds snobbish, I'm sorry- I don't mean it to sound like that. I saw my tape is copyrighted 1995, though it was bought in 2004.  

Last edited on Mon Oct 27th, 2008 02:29 am by Tutora


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