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Dr. Deb, what is your beef with Clinician X?
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Leah
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 08:15 pm
Actually the difference between teacher and leader is more than just semantics.

Last edited on Fri Oct 24th, 2008 08:16 pm by Leah

Waldo
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 08:40 pm
Hi Billy,

 

I give Dr. Deb more credit than getting hung up on word games. I am NOT my horses' teacher, but I'm trying to be a worthy companion and leader. Horses are herd animals, and they react to leadership. I don't think there is a single human that can teach a horse how to be a horse. After all, horses know way more about horses than we will ever be, and if anybody is teaching anything, it is the horse teaching the human. Horses know how to lope, they know how to jump, they know how to trot, they know how to best utilize their natural instincts, how to go into flight mode, etc. No, the only thing we have to prove to the horse is that we are worthy of their trust, of their time and of their connection with us. And I called it 'prove', not 'teach'.

Waldo, this is Dr. Deb. This paragraph pretty much tells me where you would be at if you showed up in my class. You are mixed up. Being your horse's teacher is your proper role, because educating your horse is the goal. One of the reasons I continually recommend J. Allen Boone's book is that he so effectively gets across the idea of "making the bridge level." Anyone who figures they need to be the 'leader' is still putting himself above the animal mentally, and (just as with the word 'natural') using the title 'leader' to kid himself that he's really his horse's partner. You are either equal partners, or you are the senior partner -- the leader -- and hence the balance is unequal.

I would totally dispense with all of that. You need to be the teacher, because your horse does not come into the situation knowing how to use the furniture. All domestic horses are still born wild. Their instincts continually get them into trouble within the domestic environment. So you be the teacher, and then there's no folderol about whether you are partners, or whether you are equal. You are most emphatically not equal! There is a teacher and there is the one who needs to be taught. Sometimes the teacher is you. Sometimes the teacher is the horse.

Only the educated horse can be 100% OK on the inside. The best a "leader" can produce is an obedient trooper -- a follower that will PERFORM, no matter how he feels. In the Army, follower behavior is created by squelching any tendency to think independently. The trooper is to PERFORM no matter how he really feels or thinks. This is the root-cause of "post-traumatic stress disorder" -- the trooper never did really or deeply accept that he would need to be killing other human beings.

My major goal with every horse is to get him all right on the inside. This can only by done through a process of education. To be educated means that the horse understands, and emotionally accepts, whatever I am going to ask him to be or do, whatever situation I am going to ask him to be in. Once the horse becomes 100% OK on the inside, you can shoot a cannon off under his belly and he'll stand there smacking his lips with his ears in a V. This has nothing to do with 'desensitizing' (to desensitize means to 'make numb' -- another route to having the horse PERFORM ANYWAY). True 100% OK-ness is absolutely something unworldly, by which I mean, it is something that reminds me of Another -- and better -- world. It is akin to what Ernest Hemingway meant when he said of the bullfight -- the dance of death between bull and man -- that it was 'uncanny' or 'otherworldly'.

And don't kid yourself, Waldo: it is most certainly a dance of death. There is no difference at all between roundpenning a horse, when it is done aright, and torrying a bull. The understanding that develops between the animal and the handler is the same, and while the bull dies in literal fact, the horse dies too -- in the sense that he dies to his old life, submitting his whole will to the man's. The idea for us is to be worthy of this, not to mis-use it. Our elderly teacher often emphasized this point. -- Dr. Deb

 

Billy, I am proud of you for your accomplishments, and I'm proud of you for doing what you think is right. However, having said that, I would like to divert the rest of our conversation to xxx's forum. This is Dr. Deb's Forum, and I will respect that. I have no intentions, whatsoever, to disrespect what the people here are trying to accomplish and build on. I only replied to the 'teaching' vs. 'leadership' comment, because it is very much a horsemanship issue. So, if you don't mind, I will 'see' you on the other forum, for I really don't have an animosity issue with Dr. Deb. I never took her criticism personal, I've only started posting here because I am a curious person that always tries to understand.

 

Thanks


Last edited on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 02:48 pm by DrDeb

Blue Flame
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 08:47 pm
So I went and re-read the Woody article and near the end it says:

I suggest you review "The Birdie Book" or at least the summary of Birdie Theory posted in the Knowledge Base section of this Website.

I couldn't find the summary referred to - could someone point me to it if it is still available?

I'm also interested in what "the horse filling in for the person" means as asked by Billys Right. I could speculate but would rather consider Dr. Deb's definition.

AdamTill
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 08:53 pm
The concept of a horse filling in for a human, in my mind, is where the horse is expected to do things that the human cannot themselves do.

For example, if you were to expect your horse to be quiet and confident on a trail ride, when you yourself are actually the one seeing goblins around every corner, that would be filling in.

Or if a person is mentally distracted and worrying about what to cook for diner while riding, then gets mad when their horse spooks or wants to go back to the pasture, that's filling in (why should they be there when the rider isn't).

Or, if the person is full of braces and twists (and the Icelandics I rode today reminded me of where mine are!) and yet the person is frustrated at why they won't take a bend or a lead, that would be expecting the horse to fill in. Likewise, if the horse is full of twists, and the rider isn't aware of them and how to fix them, that would be the same situation.

Not if this is how the term is intended, but it's how I read it.

Leah
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 08:54 pm
Blue Flame...the summary for the Birdie Book is found under the ESI Bookstore link...once in the bookstore, scroll down just a wee bit and you will see it.

One thing to be aware of-with ANY of Dr Deb's writings (or at least the ones I own), be prepared to read, read again, re-read and when you are finished do it several more times.

Each word counts. Each sentence counts. These are not materials that can be mastered in one weekend reading.

I lost count of how many times I have read Woody and True Collection and I still have many readings to go!

Also be aware that this forum does not operate like many...it is considered Dr Deb's classroom. She answers questions when she is available and it may take some time.

Billys Right
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 09:15 pm
Thanks Adam, I can see some sense in what might be meant by "filling in" now, and look forward to DD's explanation also.

 

Waldo
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 09:20 pm
Blue Flame had nothing to do with my reply to you. I think you got us just a little confused. I'm just a guest poster on here, but so are you. Dr. Deb does not have to accept either one of us on here, and at the moment I'm hoping that she will delete this whole 'strange' thread.

Billy
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 09:22 pm
yes Waldo...the post was meant for you not Blue Flame. I did get my user names confused.

Leah
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 09:31 pm
Billy wrote:
so to answer Leah, actually it is just semantics. If you were smart enough, you'd realize you need to be a leader before you can teach the horse.

 


When someone says 'it's just semantics,' the implication is the person accused is just playing word games...not something I find common to Dr Deb's personality.

Billy
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 09:34 pm
no it means that someone is placing too much emphasis on the philosophical meaning of words

Leah
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 09:44 pm
Well then I guess it can have two meanings.

hurleycane
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 10:26 pm
Waldo - How did you hear of this forum?

Leah
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 10:30 pm
hurleycane-there is a post on the private forum of the clinician not being named...

Someone was complaining about Dr Deb's recent clinic and the thread took off, bringing many over here.

It is unclear if the OP on that forum is the same as Billy or not.

Also, there have been others on that forum that refer to Dr Deb's writings and some come to learn what it is all about here...

sadly though I think this traffic is due to the trainwreck over there that has now jumped its tracks to here.

Waldo
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 10:37 pm
Hurleycane: We had a thread about Dr. Deb's seminar on our Forum. Made me curious. I am not one to judge by what others say, so I decided to check out the website myself. I don't like emotional attacks (they cause way too much damage and chaos throughout the whole world), but instead try to understand what causes them. That's why I started posting on this thread: Out of a simple need and desire to understand.

 

Sure didn't mean any harm.

 

Leah
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 10:39 pm
Blue Flame, while you are getting your feet wet over here, you can always do what I did at first...

there are not TOO many pages on this forum...you can go to the beginning and literally read all the threads (take your time :-D)

I have passed over threads before thinking the question did not apply to me, later got curious and read it, only to find I learned something!

There is information stored away in many posts in many threads!


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