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Dr. Deb, what is your beef with Clinician X?
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maushouse
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 Posted: Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 03:53 pm
Many of us find inner peace working with horses. We go to clinics and seminars to learn more about these beloved creatures and to take the blinders off. It is our responsibility to learn all we can, to use our own intelligence and horse sense to listen, and try to hear, what our horses are telling us. God knows, no one has all the answers.

Jen
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 Posted: Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 05:31 pm
Wow Maushouse...thank you for leaving us with that beautiful thought and so very true.

 

 

Billys Right
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 Posted: Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 05:40 pm
I too have had the mispleasure of attending a clinic with DD.

I know what you mean here Billy, the worst mistake I made was to mention I enjoy lessons with Clinician XXXX.

The attacks I suffered on this forum make this discussion look pleasant in comparison. It makes very interesting reading still.

There are so many things DD did in her clinic that were so excellent, BUT I ask her now.

Would you treat horse in the same way you are treating these people who feel you are rude etc.

I feel, if teaching has to be tough, as you are tough on the people who dare to question your thoughts and porcesses, as a horse may dare to as well.

What do you do to horse to change its ways? 

How do you treat a "mad bad mean horse" to  help it work with you and return its Birdie?

I really need to know this now- after a few years of reading this site.

The answer to me is with RESPECT, its a 2 way process, give and take.

On the other ideas of clinicians who sell their products, here I see, but the birdie book, and you will discover the answers for yourself.

But the weeds book, buy and read this or that?

Is there really a differecnce between clinician XXX and this  elite forum?

Perhaps the answer lies in the fact bad horses, like bad people have pyschotic issues, and they all need to see a good counsellor, to lie on the couch and discuss their issues.

A good teacher you are NOT, DD, but a very clever  and brilliant person you are.

 

Masquerade
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 Posted: Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 08:34 pm
I was also at the clinic being discussed and found Dr. Deb to be a wonderful speaker and able to pass on some fantastic insights into the horse that made me really stop to think.  I never found her rude, blunt at times but not rude.   Maybe I just have thicker skin, I don't know.

I guess some people are never happy.  Maybe I didn't agree with every remark but that doesn't mean it wasn't a great clinic and that Dr. Deb isn't a great speaker.  I found the time flew when she was talking as she had the ability to grab the audience.  I would go back to hear her again should I ever have the opportunity.

As for the very limited swearing..............just grow up for goodness sakes.  She was not taking the Lord's name in vain and nor was she insulting to a race, religion, sex.......jesh.  I'm sure worse words are said in the Elementary School playground at recess.

DrDeb
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 Posted: Thu Oct 23rd, 2008 01:02 am
Dear B.R.: Is there something I can actually help you with? Do you have a question regarding horsemanship? That is the purpose for this Forum.

If you don't have an actual question, I'll be removing your posts. You understand that our server space is limited, and we'd like to use it for inquiries that are worthwhile.

Thanks for the courtesy. And other folks, by the way: please, that's enough of who liked Dr. Deb and who didn't. There is no purpose at all in a thread devoted to that, and I myself am utterly uninterested in peoples' opinions about me, whether the opinions are positive or negative. People are very kind when they say positive things.

Let's get back to discussions of horsemanship principles, difficulties and insights in training, and good stories from "the trail less traveled". -- Dr. Deb

 

Last edited on Thu Oct 23rd, 2008 01:04 am by DrDeb

NCMtnGirl
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 Posted: Thu Oct 23rd, 2008 01:08 am
DrDeb wrote: Let's get back to discussions of horsemanship principles, difficulties and insights in training, and good stories from "the trail less traveled". -- Dr. Deb

 

Amen :-)

pamd
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 Posted: Thu Oct 23rd, 2008 10:18 pm
Dr Deb,

       I was also at  your lectures this past weekend.  Thank you  for sharing your gift with me. You are remarkable.

Thank you

Waldo
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 07:48 am
Hi Dr. Deb,

 

I have never heard about you until this discussion started, and this is not a direct 'horsemanship' concern, but more one of 'personality building', which will ultimately influence our horsemanship skills. However, not to worry, my post is not going to attack anybody, I'm merely trying to understand. I'm even using the same username (Waldo) that I use on XXX's Forum, 'cause I don't have anything to hide or to be ashamed of.

 

I read this whole thread, and I also read your website. I agree, your information and knowledge are remarkable, and I agree, some of the posts on here were pretty hefty.

 

What I don't understand is where this mutual hostility is coming from. We are all on the same side of the fence, you, clinician XXX, clinician XXX and clinician XXX, and even yours and their students. We are all in it because we truly love horses.

 

I know plenty other horse people who call themselves horselovers but deserve this kind of hostility. There are people who drag their horses behind pickup trucks to teach them how to lead, or who blindfold their horses and let them run into a wall to teach them to whoa, or who hit a 2-liter bottle of warm fluid over mounts heads to make them behave. And then there are people who do just about anything to win a competitions. Those aren't horselovers, those are disgustingly sick people who deserve many of the words that have been exchanged in this thread.

 

I'm really a little bit confused. Just because a clinician is well known and makes money doesn't make him bad. I promise you, if we wouldn't see the results in our horses, we wouldn't study under certain clinicians.

 

Does anybody that reads this have any idea, just how much good is happening thanks to people like you (Dr. Deb) or any of the clinicians you despise? The world of horsemanship is changing thanks to all of you. I really don't care about who makes the most money or who is the most famous, all I care about is that people start using some heart when they handle horses - or any other animals. I also want them to start using some common sense when they are breeding more and more horses that end up unwanted. Things are changing, Dr. Deb, and I'm greatful for every single one out there that make it happen. Therefore, I'm also very greatful to you.

 

And please, don't forget that we shouldn't kill a good. The world is bad enough as it is, even without friendly fire.

 

Thanks for your time,

Waldo

DrDeb
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 10:05 am
Waldo, I understand your question. You say you've read the entirety of this thread, but nevertheless you have missed some things.

Nothing about this is personal. There is no hostility at all. I am simply telling people -- and indeed I am obligated to tell people -- that there are individuals out there who offer "horsemanship" clinics and who pretend to teach, who mis-teach and who therefore will wind up hurting the peoples' horses.

Waldo, I also think that like many people you have been led on by media reports to assume that there is some kind of movement going on here. There is NO movement, no single team or camp; and therefore, there is no 'friendly fire'. The people who call their thing 'natural horsemanship' are doing things that I do not want to see my students, or anyone else, do.

There is no such thing as 'natural' horsemanship, neither can there in any manner ever be such a thing. The word 'natural' is a smokescreen.

What we teach here, as Hurleycane has mentioned, is just plain horsemanship. There is nothing else. Horsemanship involves deep work, deep perception of what we mean to horses. This also is not taught within the so-called 'natural horsemanship' schools -- in fact, entirely missed. This is their most serious deficit.

So, again, there is no 'friendly fire'. There is in fact no fire at all. You can take my advice regarding these things, or you can leave it; and if you leave it, I wish you well in whatever journey you make with your livestock.

If you want to remain here, you will be taught CONSCIOUS horsemanship, so that you begin to know without doubt that every single thing that happens to your horse, happens to him because you have decided that it is going to. This eliminates for me the possibility that my horsemanship could be superior to anyone else's. It is simply what it is: the one-on-one, direct reality of my relationship with each animal that I own. We may do quite a few different things, and some of those things might look fine to an outside observer; but that would not have been the goal, rather, a side effect.

I quite like the term 'conscious' to replace 'natural', as conveying with clarity and honesty what we are doing. When you yourself have clarity and honesty, Waldo, then you can begin to convey clarity to your horses, and start getting honest responses back from them. -- Dr. Deb

 

Blue Flame
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 03:14 pm
Dr Deb, another student of clinician XXX here - not that that should be important or relevent but that I just want to be up front with my first post - I have horsemanship questions. 

Before I ask the questions, I wish to state that I'm not interested in defending or promoting an agenda or position, I just want to learn. I ask for the benefit of my horse. I ask these questions, particularly the 2nd one, after seeing phrases like "surface teaching" and "deeper method".

Q1,

Dr Deb, please give me a specific example or two of a method/technique/approach typical of clinician XXX's teaching that could be doing my horse harm and how/why it is harmful?

Q2,

Assuming it is not possible to give a concrete answer to the first question and that the method/technique is not important, but rather the underlying philosopy is the problem - please elaborate on this?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the record, right or wrong, I understood the meaning of the "natural" in clinician XXX's use of the term to refer to communication that was based on how horses communicate with eachother rather than trying to imply anything more than that. Clinician XXX has stated that in his use of that term, his wish is that the term would one day be made redundant.

Last edited on Fri Oct 24th, 2008 03:29 pm by Blue Flame

AtLiberty
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 04:21 pm
Blueflame, if you want to benefit your horse, I would suggest to read a lot on this forum. Then you might consider this:

DrDeb wrote:
1. They do not understand the meaning that their approach to the horse has TO THE HORSE. They are "surface workers" who continually (and largely unknowingly) call upon their horses to fill in for them. You can assess this in some photos; but not very well in the example that Dave originally posted. You need a photo where you can see "into" the horse's eye. The Birdie Book is full of such photos, and I would greatly prefer that everyone go and look at that.

already enough of an answer to your question.

For learning you do not need to find the flaws in other people. By reading through the topics here and the articles in the knowledge base on the other hand, you will learn a lot. After that you most likely have some more interesting questions.

Billys Right
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 06:00 pm
I have actually read the Birdie book, courtesy of a friend.

I have read both books mentioned and Woody, and as I said attended a clinic too.

I see all the photos, but I still do not really get what you mean by a horse "filling for a human"

If teachings do not make sense to the learner, surely the teacher can find another way to try and explain what the learner does not understand, as thats what the original problems stem from, lack of understanding.

Sending me off to read the book again and again, I still just do not get it.

In your birdie book, I see horses that look stressed, I see pain, I saw some ideas on how to stay focussed, but not much makes sense about how a horse fills in for a person?

 B.R., this is Dr. Deb. I know what you don't see, but this is for very good reason. You and I both know that you have been under psychiatric treatment previously, and that the public school system where you once worked will no longer hire you, because you are a recognized danger to children and co-workers.

I have told you before, when you were using a different moniker, that I cannot work with you until you place yourself under effective psychiatric care and/or medication. Your inability to understand the Birdie Book is related to the mental illness from which you suffer. It isn't that I have no sympathy for your condition, but that your condition makes cogent discussion impossible. Worse, it misleads others here into thinking that what you have to say is on the same level as the reactions or opinions of a healthy person.

Please stop posting in this Forum, and go obtain the treatment that you need. -- Dr. Deb

Last edited on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 04:54 am by DrDeb

ladycfp
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 06:54 pm
I am very new here, this week. I have concentrated my studies with "Clinician X" for 2 1/2 years. I recently audited a Harry Whitney clinic. I was so moved by that experience I am signed up to ride in a clinic of his in June. I have ordered and not received yet the podcasts and the Birdie Book. I do not know fully what is offered here, but it appeals to me so far. I have been missing something that I hope I will find.

Far as I can tell today, my studies with X have concentrated on moving the horse's body to get to his mind. Here, it seems the emphasis is on moving his mind to get to his body.

I am sure someone will tell me if I am wrong. Even if I am, I am looking forward to learning more.

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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 07:21 pm
Thanks, Dr. Deb, for your reply. Unfortunately, I still feel hostility in many of the posts on this thread - coming from both sides of the fence. However, you said that none of it is personal, and so I can only take your word for it.

 

However, I promise you that I have not been taken in by media reports. If anything, media circus is something that turns me off. All I have ever been interested in is the welfare of animals. I have 4 and a quarter (he's our little Mini) horses, with all of them being rescued animals with different, horrible backgrounds. I got into this without experience, but with a lot of love and concern. Some of the issues those horses had were very hard for me to understand, and I have gotten myself into dangerous situations several times. Thanks to xxx's teachings, I have developed into a confident horse partner, and our horses have become trusting and calm. I am anything but a horseback rider, for me riding is not nearly as important as my relationship with our animals. Anyway, what I have learned from xxx has nothing to do with techniques or tools, it has to do with understanding and observing a situation and with becoming the human leader our horses need and deserve.

 

No, media circus is nothing but media circus.  And it is not the media that lets me believe that a 'movement' is going on. I see more and more people who are interested in becoming 'worthy' humans. I still see too much cruelty going on, but people ARE starting to change - generation by generation. I don't know, if it's a movement or not, but it sure is wonderful to see kids that are being taught a better way, a more respectful way. And whether you realize it or not, whether you like it or not, whether you intended for it to be that way or not, you ARE part of those teachings.

 

Thanks again for your time, and good luck to you all.

 

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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2008 08:07 pm
Hi Waldo

I don't think Dr. Deb would want you to refer to yourself as "leader" but "teacher".  She seems to be really hung up on semantics...but that's okay. I'm trying to see her angle on things.  

I also believe that XXX's teachings have helped me a great deal.  I'm not so sure Dr. Deb is really up on what XXX is teaching.  I'd like to know how much of his material she actually owns and has studied.  I have been to many of the people on the "friends of ESI" site.  I read all of Harry Whitney's articles and I already knew what he was going to say.  This has all been taught to me.

This evening, I had a dressage instructor, well known in our area and Grand Prix level, come and teach me.  I first showed her our ground skills on line, then I played with my horse at Liberty in and outside of the round pen(in an open pasture).  She was blown away by what I could do.  She knows nothing of XXX's teachings.  She could not believe the relationship between myself and my horse.  She couldn't believe he was staying with me and being so obedient with such as soft look on his face, ears perked forward the whole time.  He would look at me, asking questions as if to say "what should I do now", "do you like this?" etc. 

We had an amazing lesson and she could not stop smiling and said "she is so looking forward to teaching us", "this horse is so well prepared".  It took nothing to get him in that "let loose" frame of relaxation and seeking the contact.  He is extremely responsive, he will halt or backup with just a change in posture.  He will add energy at the slightly indication of my energy etc.  The point is that what we have been taught is very good information. Don't doubt it because Dr. Deb does.  I think she is missing something in her overall knowledge of what XXX is teaching OR she has a personal vendetta  against him.  Does she know what XXX's wife is teaching?  I think she has also brought soooooo much to the table.


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