ESI Q and A Forums Home
 Search       Members   Calendar   Help   Home 
Search by username
Not logged in - Login | Register 

Stayer lines of Thoroughbreds
 Moderated by: DrDeb  
 New Topic   Reply   Print 
AuthorPost
Kuhaylan Heify
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 30th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 73
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Apr 18th, 2019 11:12 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dear Dr. Deb. The guy I talked today at Equus can be reached at 800-829-5910. I have to call them back ,myself with the dates to get back copies.. Many thanks for the info. I think our American Thoroughbreds are way overlooked for sport purposes. Luckily enough the Barn I just moved to has some horses left of their old breeding program going to Dark Ronald,( or is it Bay Ronald)and a bunch of not currently fashionable sporty distance looking horses. To me, big horses with lots of bone, built level without the downhill orientation..
best
Bruce Peek

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3240
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Fri Apr 19th, 2019 05:58 am
 Quote  Reply 
Bruce, you can't get better horses than Dark Ronald or Bay Ronald (they are son and sire, both bred by the Duke of Windsor). 90% of German sporthorse breeding goes back to one or the other of them. Despite being of the Eclipse family, they are, just as you say, substantial and well-balanced for riding as opposed to being so extreme as to be suitable only for racing.

When you get the articles you're about to order, you will find me quoting George Morris concerning the wasting of American bloodlines in trade for inferior Warmbloods for purposes of jumping and dressage.

Find out who Captain Hiram Tuttle was, and why he's important, and what sort of horses he had and won on, by reading the articles.

And by all means go over to http://www.allbreedpedigree.com and look up Dark Ronald's ancestry and that of many another good horse and bad.

Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Kuhaylan Heify
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 30th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 73
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Fri Apr 19th, 2019 03:02 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dear Dr. Deb. Years ago when in grad school I was able to do a broadcast feature on Major Robert Borg.. He said that Tuttle had recruited him for the army, I think in the 1920s. Borg went on to be on the army team which medalled in the 1948 games. He sounded to me like a complete Baucherist. He told Dressage and CT, when Bezugaloff was its editor that on the voyage to Europe for the 48 Olympics he ,'performed all of the neck flexions", with the teams horses. The Wikepedia entry for Tuttle states that as well as getting a medal in 1932 he( Tuttle) was told by the German team coach that the Americans needed German horses or the German judges wouldn't give them a fair shake. Acknowlidging even then that the judging was hopelessly corrupt.
Also didn't Tuttle own and ride Jenny Camp, the American Saddlebred?
best
Bruce Peek

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3240
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Fri Apr 19th, 2019 08:54 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Good, you know about Capt. Tuttle, the only person ever to have won an individual medal (bronze) in Olympic dressage from the U.S. He won it on a Morgan X TB, a typical Army-bred officers' mount, identical to what is now called a 'UVM-bred Morgan', that he bought off the breeder for the grand sum of $1. The breeder thought the horse too big and coarse, which of course he is neither one.

So now I have to tell you another magazine subscription you need to get -- Eclectic Horseman, and order the back issues with my articles in them if you don't have them already. I reviewed Tuttle in one of those and presented pictures of his horses.

Jenny Camp was indeed sired by Gordon Russell when he was serving as an Army Remount stallion, but she is not a Saddlebred. Her dam's parentage is not certainly known but is thought to have been TB X American Standardbred. Do as I have asked, Bruce, and go to http://www.allbreedpedigree.com and look her up. When it pulls the pedigree, click on the little "i" button at the top and read the information posted there, which I find to be generally accurate in reviewing a lot of different pedigrees. -- Dr. Deb

Kuhaylan Heify
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 30th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 73
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Sep 18th, 2019 02:02 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dear Dr. Deb: Congratulations on a fine article on the Quarter horses in the current Equus. I was quite taken with that picture you included of the super sire Leo. To me he kind of looks like a UVM Morgan. He appears to have his neck set a bit higher then most of the other horses, along with the especially nicely configured hind quarters. I'm looking for a new bigger horse. So far I'm having a heck of a time finding an american bred with sufficient bone, good quarters, and a high set neck. All part of the journey I guess.
best
Bruce Peek

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3240
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Sep 19th, 2019 05:34 am
 Quote  Reply 
Thanks, Bruce. Yes, those articles do take quite a bit of research and effort.

I agree with you concerning the appearance of the stallion Leo; he does look like a Morgan. Note from his pedigree that he is mostly Thoroughbred. He made a very good cross on a lot of QH mares. To me his very best quality, though, was goodmindedness and tractability.

As to your idea to now get a bigger horse: I rejoice to hear it. Let me make a few suggestions:

1. Don't buy anything narrow-chested or long-backed. You're a big man and you have a certain amount of weight, despite not being overweight.

2. DO look for a taller horse, especially one with a ribcage that is deep. You can take a horse with a rather wide back -- one of your objectives should be to find something that will "soak up" the length of your very long legs, thus helping you to find a much better balance on horseback than your current horse can offer.

3. The quality of having a deep, wide ribcage will be for you more important than whether the horse is specially up-fronted or beautiful in front. Just so long as the neck attachment is reasonably good -- in other words, that the horse is not flat-out ewe-necked, I think we can get along with it.

4. I would not be looking particularly at Quarter Horses, because so many of them have body-balance issues, i.e. they run downhill in balance. It would be ideal if you could find a Morgan X Thoroughbred of sufficient size. A well-broken Warmblood would also do, or a draft X Thoroughbred cross. On the cheaper end of the spectrum, you might also look at a Standardbred -- but do be sure that it has both a good trot and canters readily. And remember, we are talking horses 16 hands and up for you, as that is what it will take to get you properly seated and get your legs taken up.

5. If you want to get into gaited horses, a big Tennessee Walker would fill your bill very well too, but again, I would not buy this kind of horse unless it trots as well as gaits and it canters fluidly and takes up the canter without a lot of fuss.

Good luck with your search and I'll be excited to see what you come up with. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Kuhaylan Heify
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 30th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 73
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Fri Sep 20th, 2019 04:19 am
 Quote  Reply 
Dear Dr. Deb: Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try to hew to them..I'm thinking that breed doesn't matter so much as does conformation, soundness, and athletic movement.
Also I've been reading more of Kirsans' stuff about how the Hobby- Thoroughbred blend breeds( which were the mount of choice for Cavalry officers) formed the basis for the early Nations cup and International competitors. So maybe a stout Saddlebred if I could find one would fill the bill. It would be a kick in the pants to use what has become a non traditional breed to smoke the warmbloods.
After all Chuck Grant, Pops Konyot, Ostermeier(sp) all owned, rode and showed Saddlebreds to great success. Kirsan implys that the Fei is moving toward not allowing people to compete unless they do so on Warmbloods. Warmbloods," centuries old breeding tradition in reality goes back to about the 1820's.
Best
Bruce Peek

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3240
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Sep 22nd, 2019 08:49 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Bruce, I like Saddlebreds very much, however, I only like the Saddlebreds that I remember from prior to 1975, which were for the most part stout, broad-backed and broad-chested, and substantial. I would not advise you to buy what's out there now; if you do that, you'll be right back with the same problems you currently have, with too hot a horse, and a horse that will not take up your legs.

You might find the sort of ASB that I would advise in Canada. Canadian breeders (of all breeds) tend to retain "antique" types for a long time, stuff that has gone out of fashion in the US.

The problem of finding a suitable ASB is exactly why I suggested a Morgan X TB. It will look and function almost exactly like an old-fashioned Saddlebred.

Or else, you can go talk to the Flying-U, the rodeo stock contractor Cotton Rosser's place. The sort of Paint he & his family breeds is actually (and I think quite unbeknownst to the Rossers) an excellent sort of cross between QH and old-fashioned ASB. My Painty Horse was one of them and he would have suited you very well -- exactly the sort of thing I would advise for you. Some of Rosser's stuff is flat-out beautiful, and even for the low end they will want money, but it will be more than worth it. Much better than a Warmblood IMHO for the same price.
 
Good luck, let me know what transpires. Cheers -- Dr. Deb

Kuhaylan Heify
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 30th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 73
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Sep 23rd, 2019 06:31 am
 Quote  Reply 
That's what I was thinking.. Going just from Dream horse, the warm bloods have quite a bit higher prices than the domestic breds.. But It seems to me the warmbloods pictured either have their legs covered up to hide something- most likely their teeney leg bone or have smallish leg size for their body size. My ideal would be something like the bone size your Ollie showed. I say amen to your sentiments about most of the current day saddlebreds- way to refined but maybe a crossbred would do. Thanks for the names of Painties breeders I'll google them around. Will just have to keep beating the bushes. The nice thing about doing this in the fall is that prices often are more reasonable..
best
Bruce Peek

Aloha
Member
 

Joined: Fri Feb 3rd, 2012
Location:  
Posts: 47
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Sep 24th, 2019 08:49 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Hi Bruce!
Just want to wish you luck in your horse search.

The warmbloods you see on Dreamhorse do not have their legs covered up because they are necessarily hiding anything. They are mostly going to be dressage or jumping horses and they generally use leg protection. Polo wraps if dressage. Probably white if for sale or at big name clinics. More boots if jumpers. The western riders go more for the neoprene type sport boots. You will probably have to ask them to send you some photos without wraps.

Anyhow, you might find a nice warmblood cross.
Both of mine had/have a good dose of Thoroughbred going back to Hyperion, hence back to Bay Ronald.

I studied bloodlines and conformation hard back when I bred and raised my two. If you look at any warmbloods, I am more than happy to give you my insight into the bloodlines, temperaments, etc. if I have any knowledge of those lines. And of course, as we know, even the best temperament can be screwed up with the right training.

I briefly rode a mare of the type of Saddlebred Dr. Deb mentions. Scared me at the time. The Quarter Horse mare I had been riding had died and the person that owned her knew of a neighbor's Saddlebred who needed some care and exercise. She was a big gorgeous mare. I realized decades later that what I felt under saddle, a feeling like she was going to explode, was the sheer power and substance that that old style horse had. She didn't take one wrong step with me on her.

Good luck in your search!
- Monica

Kuhaylan Heify
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 30th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 73
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Fri Apr 10th, 2020 04:48 am
 Quote  Reply 
Dear Dr. Deb Just got the quarterly Equus.. Fine article on the King Ranch horses. Was especially impressed by the Thoroughbred out-cross stallion Lovely manners.. Would you say that he was particularly well balanced with his high set neck?
Hope all you guys in Cal. are ok and healthy. So far only one of our bus drivers here locally have tested positive for corona virus. Nock wood( crosses fingers and taps forehead)
best
Bruce Peek

DrDeb
Super Moderator
 

Joined: Fri Mar 30th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3240
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Fri Apr 10th, 2020 06:29 am
 Quote  Reply 
Yes, everyone is OK here -- predictably. Two things to remember: worldwide, to date, the rate of infection (that means, the world population divided by the total number of known cases of COVID-19) is about 6%. That's about 2% higher than the known total number of people who caught the Swine Flu, H1N1 flu, H5N1 flu, or even the 1918 'flu (if you don't count 'hot spots' where rates were locally much higher, i.e. in crowded WWI field hospitals and in New York City). That this pandemic seems to have affected more people is almost certainly due to better reporting, but may also reflect a slightly higher ease of transmission.

Then you need to look at the death rate, which is calculated by dividing the total number of people worldwide who are known to have been infected by the total number who have died of COVID-19 or direct complications thereof. Again, the figures are almost exactly the same as for every 'flu that we have had every year or every other year throughout our lives -- i.e., about one-half of one percent.

That is still a lot of people infected and a lot of dead bodies; I don't make light of that. It's a tragedy. But it is very little different from any other year and any other 'flu. Why don't we hear about that every year? Fact is -- we do -- eight-second spot on the national TV news, or eight inches below the fold on the 3rd inside page of the newspaper. But the "news" did not catch fire and become a national obsession before this. The fact that it did this time is very important to consider and figure out why.

Also, I think it's important to mention a bulletin issued by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control (the "CDC"): which says that there is no evidence of association of COVID-19 with food. In other words, no matter how many times the media blast you with little presentations concerning how long the virus can survive on this or that surface, NO ONE has to date caught it that way. Nor do you catch the common cold that way, nor do you catch any other type of 'flu that way. How you catch COVID-19 is when somebody coughs or sneezes near you, in other words, it is spread when you breathe in "aerosol" particles.

I feel extremely sorry for my neighbors who are terrified out of their wits -- and have lost all sense of perspective and common sense -- because they stare at their stupidphones and make themselves more stupid by watching TV news (any channel). What I see them doing is wearing their welding helmet into the grocery store (because they can't get a mask); wearing latex gloves or even a hazmat suit to go shopping; bringing a bottle of "sanitizing" spritzer with them into the grocery store and spraying/wiping every tomato, apple, banana, or boxed product before bringing it into their house. Or spraying each other off with Lysol before passing through the front door -- because they have the completely absurd and fantastic idea that their home could possibly ever be made 100% virus-free. I have one neighbor who thinks his fancy HVAC system is going to filter out virus-sized particles.

Absurdities like these are, in my view, mainly the result of two things: one, our educational system sucks and has sucked for many years. Our young people are deprived of the one, main, most important set of teachings -- and that is, how to use their own brains to solve problems. They have great difficulty reasoning and they have no confidence that, presented with a practical problem, they have the tools and the mother-wit to solve it.

The second thing is that science reporting, to the local as well as to the national media, sucks and has sucked for many years. The reporter often has little understanding of what he's writing or reading aloud. And they are not trained as scientists; they are trained as journalists; so they give you absolutely no help in debunking internet rumors or in interpreting or putting into perspective whatever data or statistics. The very first thing every trained scientist thinks, when the TV blares out "this is a terrible pandemic" is -- "terrible compared to WHAT?" "Infection rate compared to WHAT?"

So Bruce, you don't need to be crossing yourself or crossing your fingers. What you need to do is exactly what the CDC have told you from Day One:

1. Wash your hands when you come in the house, after you use the bathroom, or before preparing food (this is really more about E. coli than it is about COVID-19, of course, but not bad advice either way).

2. Stay 6 ft. away from anybody that is sneezing or coughing.

3. If you are sneezing or coughing, or running a fever, don't go out and don't try to go to work.

4. Put off travel in airplanes, cruise liners, or any form of crowded public transportation if at all possible until all this blows over.

5. If your boss tells you to wear a mask while driving your bus, then wear it. You also need to keep your job.

And you need to try to avoid going to the hospital, where you are twenty times more likely to catch COVID-19 than anywhere else. This is what the CDC and health authorities are actually most afraid of, and rightly so -- not that this 'flu is much more deadly, or much more infectious than any previous one, but that it hit us all at once, and in many places, if everyone got sick at one time, they would have to triage because of a lack of ventilators and other things patients need. And doctors, even though society gives them the power to do so, dread being asked to play God.

The other great thing to fear is something I noticed immediately after the "strong request" came from our Governor for people over 65 to stay home. The CDC promoted this because people in this age category do have a higher likelihood of the disease affecting them strongly, so that it kicks off a cytokine storm in them or proceeds to pneumonia, and they need to go to the hospital. But what I see instead is certain younger people -- ignoramuses yes, but even ignoramuses can pack a punch when they mob together -- certain younger people believe that it's older folks who are spreading it. Grayhairs then get social disapprobation if seen in public.

My handicapped friends affirm the same thing; they fear that if it came to triage, their lives would not be valued as much as an otherwise healthy twenty- or thirtysomething. We have not previously, as a society, had to do the hard thinking that would protect us from this kind of xenophobia. In Northern California, which is largely rural and heavily secessionist and Trumpite, there are now vigilante parties which, if they catch a motorist from "down south" who is simply exercising his or her right to travel because of family needs or business, they will shoot them. They post signs that say, "this is our town. We don't have the virus. KEEP OUT". You can call them hillbillies, but they shoot straight for the most part from what I hear.

I have an 80-year old friend who is a nurse and a nurse educator. She has continued to go to work, as per normal (she has never retired), every day throughout this madness. Chuck Schumer is talking about giving people like her "hero's pay" -- a big chunk of change too -- and I'd be just as happy to see her be the recipient of it. But she is not, in fact, a hero; she's just a normal adult American with a functioning immune system and a lick of common sense. Of course they wear masks at work -- they're not looking to be martyrs. But there is no reason either to be as afraid as I think many people are.

Remember what Franklin Roosevelt said -- because it is fear that freezes you up so that you can be controlled by others, fear that dulls the intellect, fear that forms the fertile ground for injustice and xenophobia. Yes, the main thing we have to fear is fear itself.

Cheers -- Dr. Deb





Kuhaylan Heify
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 30th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 73
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Fri Apr 10th, 2020 02:09 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dear Dr. Deb. Yeah I know about the knock wood business..- was just angling for some comic relief.. We've been wearing masks for a couple of weeks now at work..
If I may- folks can make a mask by folding a clean dish towel, or even a hanky, in a rectangular fashion, taking two hair ties inserting them, and safety pining the folds around the hair ties after they fold the towel ends back inwards thus giving themselves six layers. At first breathing will seem weirdly restrictive but your diaphram muscles adapt and they become better at getting the air in
to your lungs where it needs to be. And besides very few of us are going to be running marathons or wind sprints. When you return home at the end of day you can just toss the hanky or towel in the wash and make a new one.
Locally we have been lucky in that the white supremacist types have so far abandoned their practice of coming into Portland and street brawling with our local antifa kids. The white supremacist types magicly obtained a no bid contract for building repair and maintenance from the Vancouver police department and were caught actively colluding with the Portland police as well. One of their followers/ hanger on types was recently convicted of a double murder charge he committed while riding our light rail train where he had gone to hunt Black people to attack. His sentencing was postponed due to the virus outbreak. So the silver lining seems to be that the annual Portland rioting season has been postponed.
best
Bruce Peek

sumosha
Member
 

Joined: Tue Jan 3rd, 2012
Location:  
Posts: 11
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sat Apr 11th, 2020 07:33 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dr. Deb,
Thank you for this information. It is refreshing to confirm what I thought from someone who has a sound scientific mind and understanding in biology. There is a good amount of fear, misinformation, and hate going around by me (hate towards anyone who is not hysterical about this).

Thank you again and take care!
Sumona


 Current time is 12:19 am
Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2   




Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez