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American Arabians
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KimJ
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 Posted: Thu Mar 27th, 2008 11:42 pm
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I was told that the American Arabian was also influenced with imported Barb horses. I was wondering if anyone has any information on this? Is anyone that is reading this have an in-depth knowledge on the beginnings of the Arabian in the US?

Thanks,

Kim

DrDeb
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 Posted: Fri Mar 28th, 2008 01:00 am
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Kim, you need to take a look at the 2006-2007 issues of "The Inner Horseman" -- the whole story is told there. It's the 2006 issue that specifically focuses on the Arabian, but you might want to follow that out with the Thoroughbred which is in the 2007 disk. There is absolutely no Barb in the registered American Arabian, or in any other Arabian. They are entirely separate breeds. You can read THAT story in my "Conquerors", also available through the ESI "Bookstore". -- Dr. Deb

Joe
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 Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 12:55 am
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Quite true.  Case in point:  almost 30 years ago, I worked in a non-profit under Dr. Leon Blair, a historian and retired naval officer and diplomat.  Leon had been the chief liaison between the USA and the King of Morocco (a long story as to why a naval officer had that job and there was no ambassador).  In any event, he and Mohammad V became good friends, as did he and Hussein, the Crown Prince.  When Leon left orth Africa, the king gave him four very fine Barb mares.  There could be no purer Barbs, gifts as they were from the lord of the Barbary Coast.  Leon considered Barbs to be in essence Arabians, and tried to register them as such here.  The Arabian Horse Association wouldn't hear of it.  They were NOT registered as Arabans.  Still, even without registration, we all enjoyed those animals very much.


Setting that aside, Arabin breeders will get into real dogfights over who truly possesses the golden gene pool.  Sometimes a beautiful pedigree is considered to make up for a not so beautiful horse.  There are numerous sub-factions and societies within the overall association.  Some of us who love the breed and own very fine asil animals simply avoid all of that, don't pay dues, and have more fun.

FWIW, one of the great "purity" controversies among Arabians has to do with the great Crabbet foundation stud Skowronick.  Skowronick is in the pedigrees of a huge number of horses in American and abroad due to his leading presence in Lady Wentworth's breeding program.  Therefore, it caused scandal and outrage when Arabian horse fanaticist Karl Raswan (not his original name) seemed to have found that Skowronick had an "Englishe" (early XX apparently) mare in his pedigree back in the early 19th century.  I have seen the facsimile of the Polish pedigree Raswan cited, but I certainly am not qualified to say whether it was real, or accurate, or what "Englishe" meant, other than "English".  However, if you get bored at an Arabian club meeting, that is a good way to boost the adreneline in the room.

Finally, let me strongly recommend DD's book Conquerers.  My copy arrived a week or so ago.  I am about a third of the way through and enjoyng it immensely despite having only had a passing interestin the Latin American breeds.  There is much more to the book  than that.

Cheers!

Joe

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 Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 01:41 am
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I couldn't answer your questions about the Barbs continued pure existence or about that particular stallion.  However, the Moroccan King thought he had the real deal in the 1950s, and another  friend of mine who is a very fine and knowledable horseman rode through the Atlas Mountains with the Moroccan cavalry in the 1980s onhorses that looked like and were said to be Barbs from the Royal stud.  Whether they really were, I couldn't say for sure.

It is  unlikely that any horse got into the American Arabian registry as late as the 1980 without a pretty careful examination of his lines -- and the conflicting factions tend to keep each other honest.

If you mean wild horses in North America, I myself do not believe that anyone can prove much of anything about the descent of a given individual horse.  Yes, they were originally Iberian stock, but later on the Indian trade routes also carried horses from other parts of Europe (see Conquerers and also The Horse In Blackfoot Culture by the Smithsonian Ethnographic Bureau).  Later, in the late 19th and first half of the 20th century, especially during the depression, many horses of all kinds of breeding were let run on government land, or even abandoned by drought ruined ranchers.  It is that mix of feral stock that we now see.

J

DrDeb
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 Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 03:12 am
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Kim, what you have to say here is pure unadulterated B.S.

Read the books you have been told to read, and please stop spreading or repeating stories that are not only false, but damaging in many ways.

The very reason I have published "Conquerors" and the 2006 disk that contains the history of the Arabian, was to put a stop to B.S. such as you are filling yourself or allowing yourself to be filled with.

Silence is golden, my dear -- go read the real research, and let's hear no more garbage. I will shortly be pulling your threads. -- Dr. Deb

DrDeb
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 Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 03:30 am
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Joe, you don't need to pay the slightest attention to Raswan, either. Purely a propagandist, and a flaming kook, was he. There are two authorities on which bloodlines are, or are not, acceptable or pure: the World Arabian Horse Association (WAHO), and the IAHA. The IAHA has had serious internal troubles since the 1980's for a variety of reasons, but they have managed to keep their standards as to admission to registry. WAHO is the organization that vets pedigrees from horses bred in the Near East and elsewhere overseas, and they have generally been both thorough and impartial.

It would not matter, however, whether they had been thorough and impartial or totally unfair -- this is the part that people don't sometimes understand. Why does it not matter? Because they are a club or organization that makes "the" rules. There is no other club or organization that counts two pennies in the U.S. for the registration of Arabian horses. The IAHA has defined what the term "Arabian" shall mean in terms of pedigree and genetics, and there is no recourse to its definition whatsoever. Ergo it does not matter what the actual ancestry of a horse might have been or is; if it is accepted by the IAHA as registerable under their rules, it is by definition an Arabian horse.

The same is true for the national Arabian clubs/registries of other countries, i.e. Poland, Russia, the U.K., Australia, and certain Near Eastern and African countries including Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt -- they all have their own rules and definitions. Some times, in some cases, those have been compatible with those of the IAHA and therefore, it has some times (some few times) been possible for well-heeled people to go overseas and import horses bred in some other country, bring them back to the U.S., and achieve registration for those animals. Generally speaking this has been pretty much worked out with the IAHA, or those who are influential in the IAHA, beforehand. So for example, we have since 1900 had important importations by Selby, Davenport, Babson, Bazey Tankersley, Tish Hewett, Judith Forbis, and a few others as outlined in the 2006 "Inner Horseman" disk.

Besides that disk, anyone seriously interested in this subject should get a copy of Gladys Brown Edwards' scholarly, honest, evenhanded, and thoroughly-researched book. She brooks no B.S. and tells it like it really is, every time; and note, she was sponsored in performing this research by the IAHA itself and had full access to all of its pedigree records. Those are the only records there are for the American Arabian, so if GBE does not tell the story, there is no story to tell. -- Dr. Deb

KimJ
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 Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 04:16 am
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I am sorry that I asked the question. It was an honest one and am still curious on the matter of G'Danchar. I did not mean to stir up anything. I was just wanting to know the truth on the matter on that horse and perhaps others like him. The man who told me about this has been researching Barbs and other breeds for 50+ years. Which is why it fueled my interest. It wasnt someone that just got into the horse world or that hasnt been around in it. He is almost 80 years old.

I didnt mean to offend. I am really sorry about my posts.

Kim

DrDeb
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 Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 08:08 am
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Kim, if you will just DO AS YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD you will find out that your 80 year old friend is the possessor of a "point of view". You need to develop an adequate ability to discriminate critically through a broad background of reading before you will be in a position to judge how far-out your friend's POV is. You see, if a person thinks that Barbs and Arabs share ancestry or are mixed up with each other, then that gives them a POV. But as I have somewhat laboriously explained above, the POV of your friend is not the POV of the IAHA or WAHO.

Now, you personally are of course at liberty to adopt any POV you like. But I will not leave posts in this Forum that represent POV's that I  know to be false or misleading. A discussion that is "open" to falsehoods or kookyism is not an "open" discussion; it is a stumbling-block for other people who might be even more naive than you are yourself, Kim.

So read thoroughly the three things that have been suggested: "Conquerors", the 2006 "Inner Horseman" disk, and GBE's excellent book. When you have concrete questions that derive directly from these sources, then we'll have something worthwhile to discuss. -- Dr. Deb

Joe
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 Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 12:31 pm
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OH, agree fully that Raswan was a real head case -- a veritable bucket full of loose screws.  Some say he purely fabricated much of what he claimed.  I don't pay him serious attention -- but his "discovery" of the T-bred?? in Skowronek's pedigree does cause much sturm und dreck, and it is still a matter of debate

ANd, it is true that the various strain and line proponents within the Arabian associations have very strong POV's and will go to war over them with little provocation.  What fun!

J

saffire_100
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 Posted: Mon Mar 31st, 2008 02:28 pm
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Dr. Deb, can you confirm which is the book you are referring to by Gladys Brown Edwards?

I looked on Amazon and she has published several books:

"The Arabian, war horse to show horse"

"Know the Arabian Horse" 

"A photographic history of the Polish Arabian"

Regards,

Sarah

DrDeb
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 Posted: Tue Apr 1st, 2008 03:35 am
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Yes, Sarah. It's the "Warhorse to Showhorse" volume that you want to get. That's the one that gives the historical information. -- Dr. Deb

neal
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 Posted: Sat Nov 29th, 2008 03:38 am
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i had an internet friend in libia an he raised a few horses , his family at one was a large land holder there till one of those kings confiscated every thing . anyways he had a barb stallion that he rode . i asked him which horse had the most indurance arab or barb, he thought possibly the barb. also the barbs were all solid colors .

Marne
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 Posted: Sat Nov 29th, 2008 02:19 pm
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HI....

Not trying to get into trouble here with my ignorance....i tried to find out online as much as i could as the stallion Egyptian stallion Talal has been long gone now for many years...

BUT I have a Talal son yet still alive...he is 29 now and was looking online a while back just for the fun of knowing and found out Talal was suppossedly imported directly from I think i remember Egypt. anyway i didn't find much about him as there were other more well known stallions imported that were a greater influence here in this country than Talal so am wondering if there are much left of his bloodlines in this country yet and what ever happened to him ect...i couldn't find out much online and don't have access to a lot of books and can't justsify buying them just for this little bit of curioscity . Of what  what i read that there was a lot of trouble getting these particular horses here but once here his buddies were quite famous..Ferazdec ( the speeling ehre is probably way off also) if I remember right was one of them.

  Talal was the  to 1st one taken off the streets over there to prove that you could take a really undernourished horse off the street  ( i think they were former race horses and blood stock ect that had fallen by the wayside due to politics and economics at that period in time)...and get him healthy and useable again and that led from one thing to rescuing  some of them to this country eventually with all kinds of troubles...i was reading this stuff late at night so am a bit hazy on it all...

Talal was one of the bunch that went thru this and i believe he was raced here in this country also and set records also. But due to my inexperience in research of such online really couldn't get any further then this...and when i read this thread thought maybe you guys knew a whole lot more than I did about this stuff and might know about him also...

Just  aksing but not trying to make waves and mess up anything here but figured as long as you guys were talking Arabians this might be a good place to ask  questions. 

My Sam is a Talal son...and when i bought him years ago really didn't think too much of it as he is a gelding but after looking up Talal online the other night found out that his sire was really a pretty interesting horse..   so here I ask my  question and hope i am not disturbing the peace.  Just thought i could get a little bit more information from some well learned people without getting too technical and involved and have some fun learning a bit more about this horse for jsut the fun of it.  thanks!!

Marne Peterson

DrDeb
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 Posted: Sat Nov 29th, 2008 07:33 pm
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Yes, Marne, but what WAS the actual question?

Marne
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 Posted: Sat Nov 29th, 2008 08:14 pm
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was wondering any information on Talal..  i know there there was a LOt of interest and use of the other horses mentioned that they imported at that time ( specifically I remember Ferazdec and I believe some other really famous mares ...  i think this is when they also imported Morafic or however they spell it also but am not positive of that one as it WAS very late that night reading)

...but when i tried to see where the Talal lines went everything just ended... disapeared...nothing...i know that there are what they call "pure" Egyptian breeding...and pure Polish ect...and there are certain families as they were talking about further up in this post...i am no expert on anything like that.

I remember seeing pics of Talal (when I bought Sam about 21 years ago) in the Arabian Horse magazine that i used to get then...but when i did the looking online a while back could find nothing but that bit about his importing along with these other horses...

 BUT was just wondering what and where the Tala line went as i have seen a lot of what they call pure Egyptian breeding but nothing ever mentions anything with the name of Talal.

i was told at the time i bought this horse to be careful of the Egyptian lines that they are not easy to work with by some friends who were breeders...(they were inot the Polish and English lines themselves) but took a chance on this horse after I road him and he has been a wonderful friend  now for many years.  Very forgiving of all the saddle troubles we had till i FINALLY happened upon Dave Genadek and his ideas and he made his 1st ATH saddle for him ( He didn't use that name at the time so mine has a different name) . So i kinda thought maybve a lot of the misinformaion on their disposition was due to imporper saddle fit and them being less tolerant of it and also maybe that the other  breeding lines such as Polish ect   were able to adapt to the saddles that were made better then the very different build of the Egyptian Arab lines.  Just a guess on my part...after dealing with Sam all these years.

Just wondering if anyone else has any clues of the Talal horses... and thought to ask here as it seemed that there were quite a few Arab  breeding learned people talking in this post...so i jsut asked in too a confusing way i guess..sorry!

Marne


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