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Why do you need a clinician?
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DrDeb
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 Posted: Wed Feb 4th, 2015 08:01 am
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Dear People -- I excerpt the following quotations posted by Caparella and Meg in the "What would you like for Christmas" thread, because I don't really understand what these two people actually want. Please read the excerpts and my questions, and then whoever wants to contribute, can do so:

From Caparella -- I agree and border on pleading for a DVD release of a clinic. I too have watched Buck's 7 clinics over and over. My teacher advised me to read and watch everything from your material, Buck, Tom's…regarding the videos, to watch them with no sound, with sound, watching the horse, watching the instructor, shining the flashlight of my attention on every detail piece by piece. Hopefully I will absorb it all in time. It is helpful to watch over and over, as something new pops out each time my consciousness is able to contain it. Also one can pause video to freeze frame or slowly peruse (in slow motion) detail that may have been missed.
All of your teaching materials are exceptional, and a DVD of a clinic of yours would be first on my wish list.


From Meg -- Another late comer as a result of thinking about this off and on since your initial post on the subject. I would love to see you use Vimeo, as does Caroline Two Ponies, to share everything from interesting snippets from clinics -- both riding and anatomy -- to specific movements and how to accomplish them, to recognizing and addressing "bye bye Birdie" moments and anything else from the book or the Mannering CD, to building and learning to use the drum. And that is just a few ideas. I like Vimeo because the videos are easy to access and may be purchased or rented.

Questions from Dr. Deb:

(1) If you have watched Buck's clinic videos many times, how is it that you have NOT absorbed -- whatever it is that you had wanted to absorb? I mean specifically -- how is it that you are measuring your failure to absorb?

(2) What, specifically, were you hoping that watching a video of myself working with students and horses, would teach you that Buck's videos did not?

(3) Why is DVD/video important to you? In other words -- both Caparella and Meg were very complimentary about the instructional materials that are already available from me -- those materials being in written and audio format where it comes to horse training as opposed to anatomy studies. What does DVD/video provide for you that other media do not?

(4) What more is it that you want, or think you need that I can provide for you? I want to know your "wish list" of stuff you think you haven't accomplished, in other words what is it that you wish you and your horse could do right now, that you cannot do right now? Be quite specific if you can with your list, please.

My thanks ahead of time to anybody who contributes to this by replying thoughtfully. I am a teacher AS OPPOSED TO a "guru". The "guru" wants your adulation; he or she wants a "fan club". The true teacher has no needs that she wants or needs to have students fulfill. The true teacher wants students to become fully independent, fully competent, and fully individuated. Your replies will therefore be helping me to help you achieve these over-arching goals. -- Dr. Deb

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 Posted: Wed Feb 4th, 2015 07:05 pm
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1. It's probably been twenty five years since I watched my video of Buck's. I would watch the video, go practice what I thought I saw, then watch some more. I learned about technique and cause and effect but I didn't learn why. In fact, I didn't even wonder why. The next year I audited one's of Buck's three day clinic's and the next year I rode. Although my horses were responding, they were as Buck put it "doing everything with the parking break on." It took a few more years, two weeks with my horses at Harry's and a couple of week longs with Ray to even scratch the surface. For me, at least, although the videos helped get me started, I needed some hands on stuff to get to the core of what I was seeing.

2. I hope that a video gives me a different perspective (you seem to come at things from a anatomical, scientific slant). I also use them to evaluate clinicians I would like to see, if it would be better to watch or bring a horse, and what to expect.

3. A DVD would actually show in motion what you are talking about. I read the twirling stuff over and over for about 6 months. I tried it, to no avail... then Harry showed me. I was so far off the mark it was comical. Personally, I also like the convenience of popping a DVD in my player.

4. Personally, I would like some re-training exercises. I have a horse that I started at about the same time as I started this journey and he has some BIG holes where I misunderstood what I was seeing. For example, I can send him anywhere, but I can't always lead him. He'll get up on a drum (or in a horse trailer) if I send him, but I can't lead him.

Mare`s Tales
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 Posted: Wed Feb 4th, 2015 11:49 pm
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Persnonally, I got a lot out of the USEF/George Morris clinic that Dr. Deb gave and was posted on line.

Over the years I have become fairly well aquainted with this philosophy of horsemanship. I found the above online clinic VERY inspiring and educational. A person just cannot hear the phrases and concepts too many times. Just like Tom Dorrance`s book, no matter how many times I have read it before, something new is going to jump out at me each time I pick it up. I just can not read it too many times.

Not many teachers take the "deep work" to the depth that Dr. Deb takes it. When I read Dr. Deb`s postings on this forum or witness one of her clinics I feel encouraged, knowing that there is a place way past "methods or techniques", past the intellectual and physical and into the heart of this philosophy. I think of the way that Tom used his lovely stories and metaphors to make us all "think" and make learning personal. For me, Tom was bringing life lessons into the light via horsemansip and I think Dr. Deb`s style of teaching does also.

On this point alone, without mentioning all the extra valuable educational teachings about how horses work physically, I think it would be great to have more of Dr. Deb`s clinics awailable to play over and over again, to use the same way as when I feel the need to re-read True Unity.



Having one of her anatomy classes on DVD to view and re-view would be great also.

snowdenfarm
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 Posted: Thu Feb 5th, 2015 05:27 pm
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1. I find it difficult to absorb information from a video if: a) there are multiple points to focus on at one time -- so I would like to see the clip played repeatedly with each individual point drawn to my attention; b) the information is demonstrated on a horse with a very different personality/reaction than mine -- so I would like to see many clips of the same material but with different horses; c) the information is not broken down into small, bite-size pieces -- so I would like to see the material broken down like the Mannering CD or the George Morris lectures. There there are things that you can do with your own body while watching the video to reinforce what you are learning and then one or two small steps you can take with you to the barn and come back to the video with more or different questions as a result of your experience.

2. I am looking for the "why's" and specifically what we are looking for in the horse as a response, because these transfer to different situations and different horse personalities more than a step-by-step how-to. When I watch clinics I often just see the horse's body move in the general shape which I then try to achieve and I release when the shape is achieved. What I miss is how the horse should feel in my hand and under my seat and most importantly inside himself, before I release.

3. Video is of great help to us visual learners and is retained better (by me anyway) in my memory when I go out to the barn. I am better able to replay video snippets in my head than audio. I also find still photos deceiving. A horse may only look like one of the pictures for a split second and I may miss it thinking the still picture indicated a longer duration. Vimeo is fine, Youtube may be more familiar to most.

4. For me personally, I am looking for two things: a) my horses to have their birdie with me and feel okay inside whenever they are with me; b) to ride in a way that does not harm the horse physically and allows true collection. I see these as the root of everything from our own safety to trainability to general usefulness to the basis of humane treatment of the animal. I feel like everything else is just the cherry on top. I feel there is no one out there that is getting this message out to the general riding population. If we have the horse's focus and ride with, I think you call it "perjustice", we can use any book, DVD or instructor to learn how to teach our horse various skills because we will know what to use and what to filter out.

Just my two cents...

JulietMacie
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 Posted: Thu Feb 5th, 2015 08:19 pm
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Snowdenfarm, your #4 is exactly how I feel and what I want! So well put! thanks.

As for the video question, it isn't my preferred medium for learning -- it all just goes by too quickly for me. There's too much info to process in real time, even with starting and stopping the video. For me, I'll take good, ol' fashioned printed words and pictures. That, plus face-to-face with the instructor.

my 2¢--Juliet

Obie
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 Posted: Fri Feb 6th, 2015 04:50 am
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I agree with Juliet, about a good ole' book and pictures. There's nothing better to me than to sit down with my favorite horsemanship book in a quiet part of the house and just ponder what is being said and to study the pictures and just let my mind absorb the content. And even as enjoyable is to take this reading and theory and apply it to my horse as needed.

Linda

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 Posted: Fri Feb 6th, 2015 07:13 am
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I am not sure I can offer a better response for requesting clinic videos than I have read from the previous replies-particularly from Snowdenfarm, so I will respond instead to the query of how one could watch a (Buck) clinic video over and over and not fully absorb what he is teaching.

As a teacher myself (of music), I have noticed that we all learn in different ways and at different rates. Information has to be absorbed over time. Insights occur with experience. Muscle memory occurs with practice. I can work over and over the same piece with a student, and at some point there comes the "ah ha" moment when they get a glimpse, or feel, of the piece. Oft times this understanding recedes into non clarity or confusion, and then returns with even greater clarity over time. Perhaps this is a poor comparison, but it is the only analogous experience I am privy to.

It is likely I am in a different situation than many of the members, as I only "started back" with horses a few years ago, at the ripe age of 48. With my lack of experience, I am in great appreciation of teachers with experience and wisdom. In the beginning I studied some works of some rather "showman" types who imparted information that did not "feel right" to me. In my ignorance I did not understand why.

Luckily I found an excellent teacher that suggested your information, as well as other clinicians in a like minded grouping. I have noticed that as I gain more experience, I can view the same material again, and have new and more thorough insights.

While nothing can substitute for experience, studying a video which engages the visual and auditory senses, seeing the motion/posture/countenance of the clinician and/or student as well as the horse is very helpful and inspiring to me.

I apologize for not being specific, as you requested. I could certainly list numerous skills I wish to improve upon, however at my beginner's level I am considering myself lucky to receive information from those more experienced and knowledgable, and that appear to me to have achieved a degree of communication with horses that I desire.

Redmare
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 Posted: Sun Feb 8th, 2015 03:42 am
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1. I bought Buck's 7 Clinics DVD set a while back, and I find I constantly return to it. I understand the ideas, the teachings. What I want to see, which the DVD's don't offer much of because they offer snippets: I really want to see Buck, or a clinician, take a horse that they haven't already trained and talk the spectators/participants through what they are doing, encountering with that horse, etc. It's helpful to see the already trained horse, but none of us are dealing with already trained horses, otherwise we wouldn't be watching the DVDs!

2. I don't know if this is just me, but I'm the type of learner who prefers to have one path, one teacher, one set of "vocab" and "tools", if you will, to learn with, at least initially. Once I'm successful with those concepts, it is much easier for me to take other ideas that are essentially the same, from other teachers, and see how they fit in to my horsemanship path. So, as a follower of your work, I totally understand what Meg was saying: I know some of the teachings by the specific language you use, which is unique to you, and it would be helpful to see actual footage of those teachings in action, using the language I am familiar with.

3. I'm a visual learner. I like step by step, but I need to see it. I find myself soaking up teachings in written or audio form, but then having trouble recognizing it in real time when I'm working with a horse. Hence why DVD's/visual tools (like all the pictures in the Birdie Book!) are so helpful.

4. Right now, I am still working on the fundamental of getting my mare OK, or at least more OK, day by day. It is a slow process, largely due to my semi-ineptitude. I think snowdenfarm put it beautifully. What I am wanting most is to better visually understand the changes a troubled horse undergoes when they get to being more OK, and how the handler encourages those changes. At that point, I could go ahead and teach the animal anything, because the foundation has been set. But achieving that foundation, I have found, takes significantly more dedication, patience, perseverance and trial than I ever anticipated.

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 Posted: Sun Feb 8th, 2015 10:06 pm
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DrDave
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 Posted: Mon Feb 9th, 2015 02:03 am
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I would prefer not to see more DVDs added to the horsemanship landscape.

All they are good for, for me, is providing an image, a concept, an approach, that I can take and run with. Better yet, that I can forget about and go and be with my horse, a different human for having been exposed to new information.

Someone once said "when music is written down, it dies." I think the same thing happens to the phenomenon of horsemanship when it's captured on video. It's great in and of itself, but like most tools, it all too easily becomes the razor in the monkey's hand.

Now, if one were able to re-create what was seen, as I, a pianist, do with every musical score I encounter, one would have truly integrated and digested the principles behind the techniques, in effect re-composing the piece as if it were one's own creation. This, I believe, is the only useful application of a horsemanship DVD. Mostly because every single time I have tried what they showed (as pure technique), my horses have reminded me how fruitless and dishonest such a pursuit is.

And so, I suggest that no effort be made to produce any new iteration of what is already amply available here. More compelling, perhaps, would be a student's guide to the information, a description of the journey from "human doing" to "human being."

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 Posted: Mon Feb 9th, 2015 07:12 am
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I benefit from reviewing repeatedly. Even the same information is said a little differently by the same teacher repeating a lesson. Stuff takes a while to sink in sometimes. Especially with the small important details. This stuff is simple but not easy at first. If I keep at it, the light does come on.

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 Posted: Mon Feb 9th, 2015 03:41 pm
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DrDave wrote "a description of the journey from 'human doing' to 'human being'"

For me, that was the "Birdie Book".

DrDave
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 Posted: Mon Feb 9th, 2015 08:48 pm
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You're absolutely right; you know, Dr. Deb, I guess you don't need to do anything but point. The seeking student will find what he needs.

Got my nose deep in it (The Birdie Book)on this rainy day.

Mare`s Tales
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 Posted: Wed Feb 11th, 2015 10:42 pm
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I know the Lord but I still go to Church to hear the Sermons.

DrDeb
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 Posted: Thu Feb 12th, 2015 12:21 am
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Yes; that's what the sermons are for: to point the way. That's what the BB does, too, so DrDave is making right use of that resource. Others seem to need other things, though, and so I continue to just sort of "listen" to this thread before I make a more extensive reply. -- Dr. Deb


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