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Improved poll for sitting position
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I would like to sit on my horse in position
   
   
   
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Barb Peck
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 Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 11:21 pm
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David:

You said:

QUOTE:From the perspective of a saddle fitter everything you said in regards to rigging is accurate with in your experience, because with in your experience you have no control over the elements that could shift the reality.  From my perspective I know if I change the saddles orientation the issue of the rigging pulling the saddle forward will go away in most cases. END QUOTE

 

David:

Actually,  there has been several instances where I did have control over the reality.

In cases where a saddle fits the horses back, but moves because the rigging position is incorrect:   by having  a saddler change the riggings position,  subsequentially does change the orientation of the saddle's position in general... and  perception about the saddle changes also (from gee this  saddle doesn't fit) - -to OK now this saddle does fit.. ( reality) 

And it saved the owner $$!.

Respectively, Barb

 

 

 

Callie
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 Posted: Thu Mar 27th, 2008 02:18 am
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I want to add something here, that may or may not be useful, helpful, or correct, but here goes...

Bareback, if I am sitting at position A,B or C, my weight is influencing at that location.  In a saddle however, hypothetically at least, I could be seated at any position, but depending on the rest of the construction of the saddle, the vector of my weight could end up influincing the horse at any of the other positions.

Really, I think that's what great saddles in any form really end up doing, is getting the vector of your weight up to position A, regardless of where your tush is actually placed.

So the parts I can imagine in my compleate lack of saddle making experience would include the way the shape of the saddle and the shape of the tree interact, and the way the riders pelvas ends up seated in the saddle.

Sorry about the spelling, I have been up a very long time today...

David Genadek
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 Posted: Fri Mar 28th, 2008 07:55 pm
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Barb,
    What I was refering to was a saddle fitters inability to adjust a saddles orientation.
Restuffing  can effect it to some degree however  to  truly get it right it has to be done when the saddle is built. If the Oreintation is to far off adjusting the rigging won't have much effect.  I will do a sheet on rigging concepts as I have time.
below you will find some illustrations of the concept of orientation as it applies to
saddle fitting.
David Genadek

Attachment: orientation.pdf (Downloaded 139 times)

Sam
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 Posted: Fri Mar 28th, 2008 09:26 pm
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Hi David, 

 Haven't had any luck seeing the pdf file on orientation or the little films but enjoying the thoughts this question is provoking!  Had a look at where I would park my new tractor and its more towards the left where there is the most support. 

Did this experiment  with Giant Shet yesterday, he wouldn't move when I sat in A so I figured he didn't think much of it and seemed his usual self when I sat in B and C which surprised me.  I don't envy your task as a saddle maker, there seems to be so many variables and how on earth would you come up with  a concept to fit all horses and all rider shapes! 

The saddle fitter we have spoken to is adament you don't fit the saddle to the atrophy of the horses back, you might have to build him a back with shims/pads etc till the right work and good saddle etc improve the horses back.  So we are working along those lines.  It would seem though the wider you make the saddle in front the more rock the saddle produces, am talking about a GP saddle here, is this where if you changed the rigging so it had a balance strap and shimmed the front of the saddle it would improve things for the horse?

The elephant ride sounds exciting!

TTFN  Sam

David Genadek
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 Posted: Fri Mar 28th, 2008 09:59 pm
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Sam,

Hmm You may not have adobe reader on your machine here is a link where you can down load it for free.  http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html
I can't imagine why you can't see the film as the player seems to be imbedded in the forum so you must have a preferance clicked on your machine or your using a browser that doesn't support it. Maybe there is a computer geek on the list that knows?

"there seems to be so many variables and how on earth would you come up with  a concept to fit all horses and all rider shapes! "
There is no concept to fit all anyone that says there is, is con man.

It is interesting that your horse did not move in A. If you trained him in B and C then that would make some sense. Most people will find they are sitting in C because the math of the philosophy dictates that you will end up there. I have been digging through Liz's library looking at rider positions. That  has been very interesting.

I think if you can down load the reader and look at the pdf your queston will be answered. Basically if you widen the front with out changing shape of the underside of the saddle you have only changed the saddles orientation and the front will just fall further before it causes a problem. Rigging can help or make it worse depending on the situation.
David Genadek

Sam
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 Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 05:50 am
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Thanks David,

Our computer connection is reallllyyyy slow so that could have something to do with it, do you talk about orientation in your video?  Also was having a little think today re your tractor on the bridge question, I spose if I didn't park the tractor with the hand brake on my John Deere would end up in B or C.  So no matter where I put my saddle it will end up where it want, so to speak?! 

Kind Regards Sam

Barb Peck
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 Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 01:11 pm
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David:

We're just using different terms to say the same thing (I looked at your PDF file).

You're  final orientation on the back depends on the shape of your tree.. I'm not disagreeing.

I understand.  I was talking about the rigging position (with the assumption the saddle was correct for the particular back).

In western bare tree fitting- there are terms used to spec the tree that differ from english fitting. It's more like boat building because the tree is a larger (and usually wood). The terms for the components of the bars are: rafter angle(at the withers) Rock (how much bend  behind the wither to meet the  Twist (angles under the thigh) All these have to be correct- to correctly orientate (your word) the saddle on the horse.

Then the rigging position has to be correct to keep it there. 

Barb

 

 

DAVID SAID "Barb,
    What I was refering to was a saddle fitters inability to adjust a saddles orientation.
Restuffing  can effect it to some degree however  to  truly get it right it has to be done when the saddle is built. If the Oreintation is to far off adjusting the rigging won't have much effect.  I will do a sheet on rigging concepts as I have time.
below you will find some illustrations of the concept of orientation as it applies to
saddle fitting.
David Genadek

Barb Peck
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 Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 01:38 pm
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Sam:

On the surface of it, I'm inclined to agree with your fitter- but need more info.

Was it injury or was this horse ridden into atropy? How bad is it? Most importatly WHICH muscles are involved? Has it changed the horses way of going? DOes the horse have pain?

And the most important is- is the atropy the same on both sides of the horse or is it asymetrical atrophy?

 In some instances an English saddle is the only correct choice because it may require several saddle changes over time- and sometimes that can be accomplished with re-stuffing or one of the adjustable saddles on the market today.... so you have more choices with English brands. 

Re-habbing this type of horse is where you will get many differing opinions as to the correct course of action to take.

I've seen symetrical horses ridden into asymetry - and that takes about a year or more - so to bring them back usually takes as long or longer.. and what comes back depends on the amount of damage, and what muscles were involved.

If the horse's atropy is asymetrical- the job is harder, because then you really do have to be a shim/shim material and saddle pad expert - along with being a fitter -

Have you described the atrophy in an earlier post?

Barb

 

SAM SAID in PART:"The saddle fitter we have spoken to is adament you don't fit the saddle to the atrophy of the horses back, you might have to build him a back with shims/pads etc till the right work and good saddle etc improve the horses back.  So we are working along those lines.  It would seem though the wider you make the saddle in front the more rock the saddle produces, am talking about a GP saddle here, is this where if you changed the rigging so it had a balance strap and shimmed the front of the saddle it would improve things for the horse?


Sam
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 Posted: Sun Mar 30th, 2008 08:53 am
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Hi Barb,

We had the pleasure of hosting the before mentioned saddle fitter and got to see him fit and repack a few saddles.  Luckily my horses don't have a huge amount of atophy, (after studying Dr Debs works they seem to have posture problems we are now working on),  but we saw horses that did, it kind of looked like the muscles of the back especially behind the shoulderblades still had the impression of the saddles.  These were the horses he suggested 'building a back' for using a progression of shims, so as the back developed you could take out a shim, as most folk don't want to keep getting new saddles.

TTFN Sam

David Genadek
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 Posted: Sun Mar 30th, 2008 10:58 pm
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Barb,
    You are correct that there are no stadardized terms in the saddle industry. How ever between english and western there are many terms that are the same but since the english tree has evolved from Brida style jousting saddles most of the terms are relative to the rider. The western tree has evoled through the jineta style of riding so most of the terms  refer to the horse. I say that English saddles are built from the butt down and western saddles are built from the back up. Twist in english saddles refers to how the seat fits the horse. The term twist in the western world refers to how it fits the horse.
David Genadek

David Genadek
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 Posted: Sun Mar 30th, 2008 11:06 pm
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Sam wrote: Thanks David,

Our computer connection is reallllyyyy slow so that could have something to do with it, do you talk about orientation in your video?  Also was having a little think today re your tractor on the bridge question, I spose if I didn't park the tractor with the hand brake on my John Deere would end up in B or C.  So no matter where I put my saddle it will end up where it want, so to speak?! 

Kind Regards Sam
Sam,
    This may be true because the saddles you have are designed to be placed way far back as many on the market today are. That is why I posed the question about where to sit so people will understand that what they think they are buying may not be the same as what the seller thinks they are selling.
David Genadek
  

David Genadek
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 Posted: Sun Mar 30th, 2008 11:29 pm
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Here is a some info on rigging . I began by pilfering some info from The Inner Horseman Volumn 6 No1 January 2002 on the subject of the ring of muscles and how functions inteh course of movement. I have expanded that info into the saddle shape which leads us to a model of how saddles can function on the back in motion from that point, how you tie things on should begin to make some sense. Teh fileit to big for postin so I will post several pdfs.
David Genadek

Attachment: spine movement.pdf (Downloaded 163 times)

David Genadek
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 Posted: Sun Mar 30th, 2008 11:34 pm
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fit zone

Attachment: fit zone.pdf (Downloaded 175 times)

David Genadek
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 Posted: Sun Mar 30th, 2008 11:35 pm
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rigging position

Attachment: rigging position.pdf (Downloaded 152 times)

David Genadek
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 Posted: Sun Mar 30th, 2008 11:45 pm
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configuration

Attachment: rigging configurationsm.pdf (Downloaded 156 times)


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