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cmac
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 Posted: Mon Jul 29th, 2013 01:39 am
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Hello everyone and thanks in advance for your attention and any remarks you may wish to make regarding the following: Do the photos indicate an animal that has begun to develop the musculature attendant to the beginning of collection, or not? The first picture was taken shortly after acquiring the gelding last year, a 9 year old, 15.1h TWH gelding. I began reading this forum, and many of the suggested materials at about the same time, one year ago. At first, at liberty in the field, the gelding's preferred gaits were pacey walk, hard pace and disunitied canter and gallop. I also observed him trotting, but not often. Under tack he only paced, and exhibited strong left-lean, locked poll and jaw, stiff laterally, and an extreme fear response (fart and bolt forward) about what the rider might do next, as though he had perhaps been scared to death a few times. But I don't really know what happened to him before, so speculations aside. He was tender-footed in front, appeared prone to laminitis, long toed stance. In the photo, he had just been shod for the first time by an Ovnicek trained farrier. No radiograghs or veterinarian examinations have been done.
The second photo was taken one year later. The horse, Beanie, has been out of work for about 2 months. I commenced working with Beanie in hand at first, asking for release in the manner described in the materials, and teaching him to trot and to canter without crossfiring on the lunge. I use a smooth, 3 piece ring snaffle, no caveson. My saddle is made by D. Genadek and seems to fit well enough. Under tack, I continue to head twirl, request inside rear foot to come under, supple laterally, practice turns on forehand, leg yielding, backing in release. That said, the bracy-ness is his consistent first response and requires constant attention. His explosive fear about what the human being might be going to do while riding him has gradually abatted, but he will still occasionally grab his tail when I change direction too tactlessly. When he has offered pace, I have suggested trotting would be better by off-setting his balance laterally and posting as though he were trotting, or by re-balancing in a circle at walk then ask for the up transition again. It has taken months and months to achieve a consistent trotting sequence gait. It is by no means anything like a good trot (that is, with consistently coiled loin) at this point, however. Nonetheless I am happy. He can offer a good soft canter under saddle for a few strides now before stiffening and loosing balance. I try to transition to walk before it falls apart. I trail ride consistently and sometimes lately when he is loose and walking freely he has offered to move into the most amazing amble and what a ride we have!
Anyway, I believe I am doing at least some of his training correctly, but maybe not. The horse is much softer and happier and we like one another. But when I look at the photos forensically so to speak, I lose confidence that he is developing as he should, and I would be very much interested in other's impressions.
Connie

Attachment: image.jpg (Downloaded 459 times)

Last edited on Mon Jul 29th, 2013 01:54 am by cmac

cmac
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 Posted: Mon Jul 29th, 2013 01:41 am
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Here is the second photo of Beanie.

Attachment: image.jpg (Downloaded 450 times)

Sharon Adley
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 Posted: Wed Jul 31st, 2013 04:29 pm
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Someone please correct me where I'm wrong, but in second photo I see a horse tending toward seriously overweight.  I like his weight better in first photo.

He does appear more relaxed in 2nd photo but his neck development shows signs of the bracing you speak of; the top line muscles look overdeveloped.  Does he ever stretch down and completely relax his neck either in work or at leisure?

DrDeb
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 Posted: Thu Aug 1st, 2013 02:17 am
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Sharon, you are not welcome to criticize in this context. The person who submitted the photos is being quite brave to risk doing so. How are your comments going to be in the least degree helpful to Cmac?

Cmac is a total beginner at this, like most readers of this Forum. So Sharon, your own inexperience is also showing up here: you don't have a proper perspective into which to fit Cmac's results. She herself mentioned that she knows the horse in View Two is overweight: indeed he needs to lose 150 lbs. as soon as possible. Cmac tells me that she has been laid up and thus unable to exercise him. That's understandable. However, the change that needs to be made on her part, as to this aspect, is to stop simply accepting whatever the conditions are that the horse lives under. No horse ACTUALLY "gains weight on air". They gain weight because they are eating too great a quantity of calories every day.

If, by Cmac's not riding him, he gains so much weight, then the pasturage or other feeding regimen is inappropriate and harmful and needs to be changed. Money or cost is, by the way, not to be used as an excuse: what I am saying, Cmac, is that you need to get the horse into a drylot where you can totally control what and how much he eats, no matter how much this may cost in terms of time, trouble, or money.

When the horse loses the weight, we will then be able to see a lot better what Cmac's actual effects in terms of training (riding and groundwork) have been. Even if they are minimal -- or even partly imaginary on Cmac's part -- they seem to be in the right direction, and that in itself is progress. -- Dr. Deb

Sharon Adley
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 Posted: Thu Aug 1st, 2013 02:47 pm
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I'm sorry if my reply was too critical, but I didn't notice that CMAC was aware of his overweight in her comments as posted, just that he was out of work.   I felt it was difficult to see what was muscle development and what was just extra weight in order to evaluate his progress.  Since she did mention that he was tender-footed when she got him, his being overweight is certainly a threat to his overall health.  However, I see that suggestions how to help him lose weight were in order, i.e. constructive criticism as opposed to just pointing out the negative.

My apologies.

Sharon

SaltMan
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 Posted: Fri Aug 2nd, 2013 04:30 am
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My comment is unrelated to the horse's condition, but I do have a question.

Do you know why he has the white spot on his neck?  I ask because my husband's horse has a similar white mark (had it when we got him) and I'm just wondering if it is the result of any training device or any kind of injection or anything...???

DrDeb
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 Posted: Sun Aug 4th, 2013 04:41 pm
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Salt, your "black" TWH is actually sabino. Sabino is a form of "paint"; go look it up in Phil Sponenberg's latest book on horse color and the underlying genetics. Sabino horses often have no more "color" or "white chrome" than the jaggedy-topped stockings on their legs, which often extend upward higher than knee or hock, or which may have upward-extending "lightning marks". They also often have a wide blaze on the face, and irregularly-shaped, non-margined white marks or small patches anywhere on the body. Particularly characteristic is for there to be one or more spots on the belly.

The white spot on your husband's horse may be something entirely different; we of course have not seen a photo of that horse, so my comments relate only to the horse we can see. -- Dr. Deb

kcooper
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 Posted: Tue Aug 6th, 2013 05:42 am
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I'm going to stick my neck out here and comment that when you do get some weight off your horse that there will be visual evidence that you have In fact been progressing that horse in the right direction physically. I bet that so far it is has had alot to do, maybe more so, with the fact that you have helped the horse become more OK in your travels and sessions together and, in effect, have kept his negative fight or flight muscle turned off..at least off for longer periods of time than they were in pic number one.
The horses exeression in pic two, to me at least, is way different and so is his posture...he looks OK but also maybe a little extra confident (or something). When I look at pic two I feel not surprised that you say that you get along with each other well.
I am no expert on anything ...but those thoughts jumped out at me so I thought I would mention it.

renoo
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 Posted: Wed Aug 7th, 2013 05:40 am
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As for the colour, I would dare to say that this horse could be as well Tobiano.

Sabinos usually have white on the face. Tobianos on the contrary, have no face white, but they have white legs. It is not possible to see the forehead, but from this view it looks like he has no white, or little, but the legs are white pretty high! A Sabino is more likely to have belly spots in the first place, Sabino tends to crawl on from the "ends" of horses.

I'm sorry I didn't say anything useful.

DrDeb
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 Posted: Wed Aug 7th, 2013 06:10 am
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Renoo, I invite you to do the same as I invited the black horse's owner; go look up the differences between Sabino and Tobiano in Phil Sponenberg's book, which is the most complete and authoritative book available on the subject.

The high, jagged-topped stockings, the lack of white in the tail, the presence of small irregular spots, the lack of a "target" marking on the butt, and the lack of dark margin to the white marks are the signs that say this horse is Sabino, not Tobiano. Some Sabinos have only one irregular white mark on the body -- this would be the minimum expression of that gene complex. So the lack of a wide blaze or a lot of white on the face isn't diagnostic.

We also need to hear back from the owner as to whether there are, or are not, any white spots on the venter; and she can also confirm for us how much white there may be on the horse's face, and also whether any of the leg markings on the horse's right side (not pictured) extend upward as "lightning marks". -- Dr. Deb

renoo2
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 Posted: Wed Aug 7th, 2013 08:30 am
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unfortunatley, only a genetic test can tell the truth. He might as well carry both sabino and tobiano.

High stockings are a Tobiano trademark, I have yet to see a Sabino with no white on face combined with that amount of white on legs. There is just a single irregular spot on the visible side, which would fit perfectly in a more expressed tobiano pattern, the minimal tobianos usually have white spots around withers and/or on mid-hind-end and/or on mid-neck.

cmac
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 Posted: Thu Jan 2nd, 2014 09:55 am
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Hello again Everyone and thank you for your observations and remarks regarding my gelding. Shortly after posting on the forum I was very badly injured, preoccupied with healing and rehab process - better now and back riding and back to reading this forum. Will post another photo of (well, his name is Beanie) shortly. He has lost weight as he clearly needed to do, so perhaps it will be easier to evaluate his development, or lack of. Re: white spot on his neck. I believe the horse to be a tobiano as there is no ventral spotting, or jagged appearance to any of his white markings, nor white hairs in mane or tail. Other than tall stockings, the neck spot is the only other marking.


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