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"off-setting"
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Steve C
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 Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2013 01:35 am
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Dr. Deb or others:
I have a question I am hoping you can help me with.
I have heard of "off-setting" only once.
I only saw a bit of it, and wasn’t expecting it, so I wasn’t sure what I saw and was not familiar with the term.
I was not able to get more information about it.
I know it is not the same as a "spin".
It is not the same as the "turn-around” .
It may be the same as a 3-beat canter pirouette, but I don’t know for sure.
Could you clarify what it is and what it isn’t, please?
Thanks

DrDeb
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 Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2013 01:49 am
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Steve, "offsetting" just means to make a small part of a pirouette -- even only
one step, so long as that step is taken with the proper legs moving and
the proper legs weighted, and with the horse's body bent properly.

For those who have attended my horsemanship classes, they will recall the place on the Peralta Brothers rejon bullfighting tape which I always show, wherein Rafael Peralta performs multiple offsets to left and right, with the center of the reins hooked to his belt buckle and his hands held upwards, palms forward. The palms must be forward, of course. We see lots of people nowadays who are pretending to be able to give "bridle-less" demonstrations, but they would not be able to tell you WHY the palms must face forward. My students could, I think, however, say why. There is no value whatsoever in riding bridleless unless the person CAN say why; when it gets to where he or she can say why, then it is time for them to ride without a bridle when they are in private.

But I digress. If you have read all the "Eclectic Horseman" articles, then you must have read the one where I talk about the "three classes of lateral work". Then you know exactly what the difference is between movements that belong to the Leg Yield
family, vs. those that belong to the Half Pass family.

The "spin" as it is performed in the game or competitive division called
Reining is a movement that belongs to the Leg Yield family, whereas an
offset, like a rollback (= half pirouette = turn on the haunches) belongs
to the Half Pass family. The difference lies precisely in which legs are
moving, which legs are weighted, and which way the horse's body is bent.

The term "turn back", like the term "sidepass" -- both of which we hear commonly -- don't really mean anything. They have no formal definition, beyond that in a "turn back" the horse more or less turns and goes the other way, and in a "sidepass" the horse can be seen to be moving sideways in "some" manner. This is discussed in the abovementioned EH article.

The spin is a lateral or "sideways" movement of the Leg Yield family which is executed upon a small diameter. When a lateral movement is executed upon a small diameter, we perceive it to be circular. The rollback = pirouette is the equivalent movement of the Half Pass family.

Our elderly teacher did not think much of the spin. And in all the years I knew him, I never saw Ray Hunt perform a spin; the only "turnback" or "turn around" that he ever performed was a half or full pirouette -- or an offset, which would be 1/4 or 1/6th of a 360, i.e. one or two steps, then either stop or go the other direction.

When they saw Ray demonstrate this, people who had been to "one too many" reining contests could then be overheard to say, "Wa'al, I admire
that Ray Hunt guy, you can't beat him. But there is ONE thing he all'us
does wrong, and that is he turns his horse on the WRONG hind leg." Of
course, though, it wasn't Ray that was wrong; it was them. When those same
guys would ask our elderly teacher about it, he would say in his very mild
(yet sharp-pointed) way, "Well, we don't use that [spin] turn on cattle
very often."

Hope this helps -- Dr. Deb  PS., Oh, also, I forgot to mention: the canter does NOT have three beats. A normal, correct canter has FOUR beats. This has also been discussed in this Forum before, and usually at my horsemanship classes. People who want to discuss this can pull up the old thread(s) by using the google advanced search function. -- DB

Steve C
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 Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2013 03:41 am
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Thanks Dr. Deb !!
Information is certainly what helps !!

nejc
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 Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2013 10:06 am
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DrDeb
I am studying yur Birdie Book very carefuly and it is very interesting and informative for me. But I have one question which is not related  to  the study of Birdie Book and bothers me a lot. When I was searching the internet I found an article talking about things I never heard before. Should I go in detail and study that stuff.
Igor
Some quotatoin:
“Our ancestors believed that the horse’s self carriage was the task of the hind legs.  But, forward movement, which includes balance control, results from the coordinated action of the hind leg on support (43% vertical impulse and 57% horizontal impulse), which produces a force in the direction of the motion, and the foreleg on ground contact that propels the horse’s body upward (57% vertical impulse ).”
“A horse adjusts braking and pushing activities of both the hind and front legs, in respect to the body situation and the demand.”
“Horizontal forces are transmitted horizontally from one vertebra to the next. They are the forces creating forward displacement of the body. Vertical forces are created by the vertebrae’s rotary systems. They are the forces resisting gravity and therefore creating balance control. “
“Combined with the fact that forces traveling horizontally through the spine are submitted to the attraction of gravity, pelvis elevation that occurs at the push off of the hind legs, loads the forelegs at the anterior end of the thoracolumbar spine.”
“The main function of the horse’s back muscles is not to increase the movements of the horse’s vertebral column but instead to reduce and maintain the motions of the horse’s thoracolumbar spine within the limits of its possible range of motion.”
“Breaking and pushing actions are influenced by the biomechanical properties of the horse’s thoracolumbar spine, which convert the thrust generated by the hind legs into horizontal and vertical forces.”
“In theory, transversal rotations, which are also referred to as axial rotations, should be even on each side of a hypothetical vertical axis. In reality, preferential rotation exists in every horse, which quite often leads to one lateral bend associated with the correct rotation and the other lateral bend associated with an inverted rotation. “

DrDeb
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 Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2013 05:14 pm
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Igor, you can study anything you want to.

Next time you write in, please ask a specific question. -- Dr. Deb

Steve C
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 Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2013 03:38 am
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Hey Dr. Deb
What is the title of the Peralta Brothers DVD/video?
I would like to buy one to watch.

DrDeb
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 Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2013 04:27 pm
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You can't, Steve. It's a piece somebody copied for us years ago when he happened to catch it on cable TV. You'll just have to attend clinic to see it -- it's the only way I can share it.

You CAN find some video of Rafael Peralta at YouTube. You will notice that, if you compare him to other rejoneadores whose work is posted there, he is obviously head-and-shoulders above. This is because the Peralta Brothers are the greatest rejoneadores who have ever lived, and all the younger men have learned from them.

You can also find a bit of video with Angel Peralta in his 90's on the Spanish version of YouTube, which is youtube.com.es.

Angel is the older brother and the greater of the two. He is also a many-times published author, a poet, a musician, and a knight of high order. You can get his book "Sabidurias de un Jinete" ("Wisdom of a Horseman") from amazon.com.es. -- Dr. Deb

JaneW
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 Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2013 06:28 pm
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"hands held upwards, palms forward"

I am trying to visualize this and I need some help.  Where exactly are the arms?  If I place my arms like I would when I ride, elbows against my ribs, lower arms perpendicular to upper arms,my palms won't bend forward.  I can however, have my upper arms against my ribs, bend my elbow so my lower arm is against my upper arm and have my palms forward (ala "stick 'em up").  Or, is it something else entirely?

I don't ride bridleless and probably never will, but I find the question interesting.... 

 

Steve C
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 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2013 02:11 am
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Hello Dr. Deb,
Well, can't win 'em all:) I did find some stuff on them last night on youtube, as you mentioned. So, I did see the hands positioned as you described. And, if you continue to have patience with me...you said no one should ride bridleless unless they know why the hands should be held in that manner. I will tell you I do not know why. I am, however, listening if you are still pleased to explain.
It is kind of you to run this forum. I've never had anyone easily accesible to answer questions. Hope we don't wear you out.
Steve

DrDeb
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 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2013 06:44 am
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Steve, and Jane: Steve, first, if you saved the link to the YouTube video(s) you watched, next time you can would you post them so that Jane and others interested can go directly to the same place you were and see the same videos. Then we're all on the same page as to the palms-up thing.

Also, I myself don't know exactly which clip you saw, so I will ask you, was Rafael stopping the horse, then asking him to back up while he held his palms up? This would be the usual thing, but I need to be sure of what you saw.

And as to what it's about....here's a hint for you to think over. If you stop your own horse, and then hold your hands up like Rafael was doing -- when you hold your hands up like that, softly cupped as you see him doing so that there is no "threat gesture" in it -- at that time, what would your horse be looking at? If you don't exactly know, then I invite you to go try it (and find out) before you answer. -- Dr. Deb

kcooper
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 Posted: Sun Feb 17th, 2013 09:26 pm
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Hi

Is this the clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnqjmmncNlI

Steve C
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 Posted: Mon Feb 18th, 2013 02:44 am
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Yes, that is the clip. I've been out of town. I found a couple other possible leads but won't be able to look into them further until some other day. I'm buried in work and winter here, so it'll be a while before I can carry out the experiment you told me to try.
Steve

Jeannie
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 Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2013 05:00 pm
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Whenever I look at this photo of Angel Peralta working cattle, I think " bow down people"!
                        Jeannie

Attachment: photo(p).JPG (Downloaded 285 times)

Steve C
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 Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2013 12:31 am
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I know, I love that picture, it's awesome. I might get the book just for any photos, even though I don't speak Spanish much. I would have thought someone would have translated it into English by now, but my internet search didn't bring up an English version. The last while I have used my spare time rehabilitating a horse with long-term founder and acute pain. Over spring break I hope to try Dr. Deb's experiment. I usually try to be positive...but I really don't think I will concretely figure out the answer to the question she posed.
Steve

DrDeb
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 Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2013 07:33 pm
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Oh, yes you will, Steve: as far as I expect, anyway. It will keep bothering you until you see the significance. Indeed, the first time you try it I expect you will see the significance.

As to an English translation of 'Sabidura de Un Jinete': I'm working on it. But this book is very difficult to translate, consisting as it does of 'wise sayings' of the countrymen that Peralta knew in his home area in rural SW Spain. Often these 'pithy' sayings are rhyming, canting, or punning and that makes it much more difficult to render the English equivalent than if it were translating ordinary narrative writing.

I'll post my favorite photo of Don Angel a little later. The one posted above is my second-favorite. Cheers -- Dr. Deb


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